8-Bit Home Computers in Daily Use?

[ade]

Even in secondary school, all we had were lessons in how to use a word processor, spreadsheet and database, but we didn't get into the nuts and bolts of how a computer works, and I don't think we had any idea of what 'Computer Science' really was… We messed around in BASIC, but that was it. I'm pleased to hear that things have improved for young people today though.

I'm guessing that you're a couple/few years younger than me (52, here)?
We did the whole middle-to-upper school malarkey and the transition from middle to upper school came about the time that our lot got computers and Computer Sciences was a study option.
It was a bit of an odd affair, with the computer room being stashed away in what was little more than a storage room with no windows () and about 3 or 4 kids to a BBC Micro (initially; the numbers dropped off quickly). Only about two kids had Micros at home, most everybody else had a Commodore or a Spectrum and some had no computer at home.
The study was all the nuts and bolts of programming, no tuition in the workplace applications/software which were becoming common in big companies, so it was limited and limiting for the average kid.
Just thinking, then: I don't think I saw an Excel spreadsheet until 2000, when I got my first PC and it's software bundle. And most computer screens that I'd seen outside of fancy offices were green-screen upto 2000!
I remember in 97 that the DC I was working in (a big concern; I was there for the xmas push) was still using the same computerized stock control software and hardware (green-screens) as the place where I began working, in 86/87.

Anyway, I thought the whole Computer Sciences study had been abandoned no long after I'd dropped it, but it seemed that those couple with BBC Micros were still at it.

I'm guessing that aims and methods must've changed with the introduction of GCSEs?

 

[LittleBoyCuddles]

My main concern would be with backups and how painful it would be to keep backups in sync when you have to jump through so many hoops to do so. Seems hardly practical to me.

 

[perlFerret]

I used a Commodore 64 for basic word processing and light desktop publishing in the early 90s. Wasn't terrible by any means.

 

[abrich]

My main concern would be with backups and how painful it would be to keep backups in sync when you have to jump through so many hoops to do so. Seems hardly practical to me.

Yes, I think you're probably right there! I doubt its something I'd ever really do, as the inconvenience would almost certainly end up putting me off. I just need to get comfortable with the idea of spending money on something even if it has no practical value.

 

[abrich]

I used a Commodore 64 for basic word processing and light desktop publishing in the early 90s. Wasn't terrible by any means.

Thanks for your your reply.

What software did you use? I find there's so much written about games for machines like the C64, but very little is ever said about the productivity programs that were available. I can see that games were more exciting, but I think it's interesting to look back on what's changed when it comes to application software.

 

[abrich]

I'm guessing that you're a couple/few years younger than me (52, here)?
We did the whole middle-to-upper school malarkey and the transition from middle to upper school came about the time that our lot got computers and Computer Sciences was a study option.
It was a bit of an odd affair, with the computer room being stashed away in what was little more than a storage room with no windows () and about 3 or 4 kids to a BBC Micro (initially; the numbers dropped off quickly). Only about two kids had Micros at home, most everybody else had a Commodore or a Spectrum and some had no computer at home.
The study was all the nuts and bolts of programming, no tuition in the workplace applications/software which were becoming common in big companies, so it was limited and limiting for the average kid.
Just thinking, then: I don't think I saw an Excel spreadsheet until 2000, when I got my first PC and it's software bundle. And most computer screens that I'd seen outside of fancy offices were green-screen upto 2000!
I remember in 97 that the DC I was working in (a big concern; I was there for the xmas push) was still using the same computerized stock control software and hardware (green-screens) as the place where I began working, in 86/87.

Anyway, I thought the whole Computer Sciences study had been abandoned no long after I'd dropped it, but it seemed that those couple with BBC Micros were still at it.

I'm guessing that aims and methods must've changed with the introduction of GCSEs?

Hi @ade! Thanks for your reply.

I was in secondary school in the 1990s and we were well in the GCSE era.

From what I was told, when the secondary school first got computers (mid 1980s I guess?), they were seen as being the sole concern of the maths department, and there had been an attempt to introduce programming classes. I got the impression that no-one in the maths department really want to teach it, and even fewer pupils wanted to study it, so the machines didn't really do very much until the focus was put on teaching us to use applications and the subject of 'Information Technology' was created.

The BBCs were seemingly indestructible, and I think it was only in my final year that these were replaced with Archimedes-based machines. I think the school had left that a bit late, as by that time it was clear that Windows was going to dominate everything. I think they got rid of the Acorns only a few years after I left and replaced them with PCs, so they didn't enjoy the long-life of the Model Bs.

I can see the sense in making sure we had a good grounding in word processing, spreadsheets and databases, even if the actual applications themselves look very different today. I do think we missed out on not doing any programming, but I just don't think it was seen as relevant at the time, as it was assumed that applications would solve our computing problems, and we wouldn't need to actually write our own programs. anymore than we had the build the engines in our cars.

I guess it was a reflection of the general trend in the industry. The 16-bit computers popular when I was a teenager (the Amiga, the Atari ST and, as time went on, PCs running DOS and Windows) were very much application focused rather than programming focused compared to something like the BBC, the Spectrum or the C64 which booted into a programming language directly. I don't remember anyone doing programming on the 16-bit machines, where as the few people who had 8-bit micros when I was a younger child were forced to be a least a little bit familiar with the idea of programming, and typing in program listings from books and magazines was all part having a computer.

I find the idea of going back to basics, or rather, back to BASIC, quite appealing, but I can't see it having any practical application, so it's just nostalgia, an appreciate of the technology and a fascination with the idea that things could have been quite different.

 

[Cottontail]

I used a Commodore 64 for basic word processing and light desktop publishing in the early 90s. Wasn't terrible by any means.

My high school computer was an Amiga 3000. As a word processor it was definitely functional, but still way behind every other contemporary platform. It was a really fun machine though. I have a lot of nostalgia for Amiga.

I'll check that out; it sounds amazing!

I'll be interested to hear your experiences if you end up with one--or an X16.

 

[dogboy]

Does anyone remember the big magazine that had articles about the latest computers as well as usage articles. It was thick as a city phone book and the pages looked like newspaper paper? I think it came out every month and I'd buy one just to drool at the new computers I couldn't afford.

 

[Cottontail]

@dogboy, was that Computer Shopper? I miss that too. I’m sure every copy I got ended up with some drool-warped pages, heh.

 

[BlankyBoyAUS]

I have a bunch of old 8bit and 16bit home computers that I only use for gaming, however I did have an uncle who has sadly been deceased for over a year now and I think he actually wrote a number of programs for himself with a C64, but none of the programs have since been saved or backed up.

 

[abrich]

My high school computer was an Amiga 3000. As a word processor it was definitely functional, but still way behind every other contemporary platform. It was a really fun machine though. I have a lot of nostalgia for Amiga.


I'll be interested to hear your experiences if you end up with one--or an X16.

The Amiga 3000 was my dream machine for a while! I still think it's the best looking Amiga, and, at the time, it seemed really powerful.

I'll keep you posted!

 

[SeniorMan]

I’m glad you have a passion for 8-bit home micros. They are excellent vintage computers with a lot of history and charm.

According to Wikipedia, an 8-bit home micro is a relatively inexpensive computer with a central processing unit (CPU) made out of a microprocessor. They became popular in the 1970s and 1980s with the advent of increasingly powerful microprocessors. Some examples of 8-bit home micros are the Commodore 64, the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I, and the Tandy Color Computer. Using an 8-bit home micro for writing is possible, but it may not be convenient. To save your work, you would need secondary storage, such as a data cassette deck or a disk drive. You also need suitable word processor software to run on your chosen platform. Some options are WordStar, WordPerfect, and Apple Writer. However, these programs may have limited features and compatibility compared to modern word processors. If you are looking for a minimalist writing environment that mimics the look and feel of an 8-bit home micro, you may want to try Microsoft MakeCode. It is a free online learn-to-code platform where you can create games, code devices, and mod Minecraft. It also has a text editor that lets you write in JavaScript or Python with a retro-style interface. You can even download your code onto physical devices to bring your project to life. I hope this helps you with your interest in 8-bit home micros. They are undoubtedly fascinating machines that deserve appreciation and preservation.

 

[dogboy]

@dogboy, was that Computer Shopper? I miss that too. I’m sure every copy I got ended up with some drool-warped pages, heh.

Yes! I'm glad you remembered the name as I would obsess trying to remember. Yeah, I loved that magazine/book. It helped open the world of computers to me. I'd also get Stereophile magazine and drool over the incredibly expensive stereo systems. Now I own one, though in reason price wise.

 

[abrich]

Yes! I'm glad you remembered the name as I would obsess trying to remember. Yeah, I loved that magazine/book. It helped open the world of computers to me. I'd also get Stereophile magazine and drool over the incredibly expensive stereo systems. Now I own one, though in reason price wise.

I remember Computer Shopper! I used to read that one, but it seemed to disappear in the late 1990s (in the UK at least), and PC Pro become the most widely available computer magazine. I used to read the various Hi-Fi magazines (still do some sometimes!), and that's another one of my interests too.

 

[ade]

I remember Computer Shopper

I remember it, too, but I didn't buy it too often (in the 00s; you know the score: you flick or read through all magazines with interesting front pages in the supermarket and then, just buy the one with the best free cd/dvd).
I usually had to toss up between a PC mag or a mechanicking bias mag (Car Mechanics Magazine being the almost guaranteed regular with Practical Classics revving up behind).

Computer Shopper (UK magazine) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Oo, I can just about remember the game-console mags of the early-to-mid 90s.
Mega-Driver, here!

 

[Oeter]

Hi All,

As a child of the 1980s, I had an early fascination with 8-bit home micros. I didn't have one at home growing up, but the BBC Micro we had at school left a lasting impression.

I've got a responsible collection of computers from the 90s and 2000s, but I'm keen to get an 8-bit set-up too.

I'm just wondering if anybody here is using an 8-bit home micro for any of their day-to-day activities? I have visions of using one as minimalist writing environment (not that I've got much to write about…), but I'm not sure how practical that would actually be.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has found a using for these wonderful vintage computers.

I was working as a technician when the 6502 microprocessor became available, and used it to design industrial systems. I even have an old Pet in my attic - one of the early personal computers, which used the 6502. It's a while since I 've done any 6502 programming, but I used to enjoy devising real-time systems using macro assembler on an Apple 2. I'm sure I would enjoy collaborating on some project if my knowledge was helpful.

 

[LittleAndAlone]

$8000 A9 07 - LDA #$07
$8002 8D 05 21 - STA $2105
$8005 EA - NOP

I still mess around on NES and SNES once in a great while.

6502 is pretty amazing for 3500 transistors and being masked out by hand. Great academic CPU to teach microprocessor design concepts like instruction decoding, control words, timing sequencer, T states, etc.


Nerd trivia: 6502 pulled a fast one with a 2 phase clock implementing an early form of DDR so it had twice as many synchronization edges as its master clock suggested. This allowed it to do things in "1 clock cycle" that other CPUs needed 2+ clocks. The real burner here was the 1 clock bus cycle combined with very small 1 byte instructions and addressing modes to take advantage of it like zero page. A 6502 (1 clock cycle bus access) can blow a 8086 or 68000 (4 clock cycle bus access and more bytes to fetch on top of it) out of the water at the same clock speed in fetch and bus throughput.

 

[LittleAndAlone]

8086 = 4 clock bus cycle for 2 bytes (8088 1 byte)
T1-T4
Has to signal and wait for external circuit to latch address (ALE demultiplex)
Has to decide and signal IO vs MEM address space.
Checks for and allows for wait state generation.
Has to deassert signals and signal end of bus cycle.

68000 = 4 clock bus cycle for 2 bytes
S0-S7 (rising and falling edges)
Has to determine and signal 8 bit or 16 bit access.
Has to signal upper byte or lower byte or both.
Has to determine and signal bus mode (asynchronous vs synchronous, legacy vs native, etc)
Checks for and allows for wait state generation and wait for acknowledgement (DTACK).
Always has 2 byte instructions and 16 bit aligned parameters so a immediate or absolute address mode = minimum 6 bytes or 3 bus cycles or 24 clock cycles fetch

6502 = 1 clock bus cycle for 1 byte
T0.phi1 strobe address
T0.phi2 latch data
Many instructions 1 byte with implied parameters or using zero page (first 256 bytes of address space in RAM) to reduce address parameter to only 1 additional byte.
Done in "one".

Mock it at your own peril, 6502 was a very efficient throughput beast that could run rings around many 16 bit CPUs even if its ALU was super basic and it lacked floating point, hardware multiply/divide, etc.

 

[LittleAndAlone]

WD65C816, the 16 bit CPU only ever used in Apple IIgs, C64 "SuperCPU" addon, and Super Nintendo (and its incredibly powerful SA1 cartridge enhancement coprocesor with faster RAM, multiplier and divider, and 3 times the clock rate of stock SNES).

It was a direct pin and instruction compatible 16 bit extention of the 6502 and also very deceptively fast for its clock speed. If I recall correctly still 1 clock per bus cycle in 16 bit native mode due to handling the added upper address byte demultiplex in phi0 and data latch in phi1.

Apple intentionally ran the IIgs at an abysmal 2.8 MHz because they knew it's 65816 would have annihilated and humiliated its premium more expensive 68000 based Mac clock per clock. 65816 is known to be able to run up to 20 MHz.

The SA1 on SNES (enhanced 65816 in a cartridge housed coprocessor ) ran at 10.74 MHz in parallel with the SNES original 3.58 MHz CPU.

OK that's enough nerding out for the night.

 

[ade]

8086 = 4 clock bus cycle for 2 bytes (8088 1 byte)
T1-T4
Has to signal and wait for external circuit to latch address (ALE demultiplex)
Has to decide and signal IO vs MEM address space.
Checks for and allows for wait state generation.
Has to deassert signals and signal end of bus cycle.

68000 = 4 clock bus cycle for 2 bytes
S0-S7 (rising and falling edges)
Has to determine and signal 8 bit or 16 bit access.
Has to signal upper byte or lower byte or both.
Has to determine and signal bus mode (asynchronous vs synchronous, legacy vs native, etc)
Checks for and allows for wait state generation and wait for acknowledgement (DTACK).
Always has 2 byte instructions and 16 bit aligned parameters so a immediate or absolute address mode = minimum 6 bytes or 3 bus cycles or 24 clock cycles fetch

6502 = 1 clock bus cycle for 1 byte
T0.phi1 strobe address
T0.phi2 latch data
Many instructions 1 byte with implied parameters or using zero page (first 256 bytes of address space in RAM) to reduce address parameter to only 1 additional byte.
Done in "one".

I feel I've just had them read out the menu to me at the drive-thru