Asking for comments re: a new Wikipedia edit on the Wikipedia Adult Diaper page?

DelC said:
Just want to point out that it appears you accidentally left out the mention of incontinence and such... It simply says "with" and no longer includes the "various conditions, such as incontinence, mobility impairment, severe diarrhea or dementia" bit. The "with" just kind of leads nowhere.

I do appreciate your efforts, though!


Read the second paragraph of the article. You could read the article directly at: Wikipedia- Adult Diapers. I probably should have put these links in this thread's first post. Better late than never.
 
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michaelmc said:
Wikipedia is out off date on nappy/diaper info too , if you look up biggest capacity nappy on wiki
Hi Michelmc,

Thanks for the heads-up on the need to update the Wikipedia article on Diapers. I just updated it:

Here.​

I'm not always able to do all updates that folks ask me to, but that was such a "no brainer, that I went ahead and did the update.

Thanks,

Yooda
 
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BunnyFofo said:
In the context of editing Wikipedia, none of that is relevant.

Wikipedia is not the place to make or present arguments for your ideas.
It doesn't matter if the argument/idea is good, bad, justified, true, false or other.
Wikipedia is not a place for original research, essays, or persuasive writing of any other kind.

If someone else has made these arguments, then you can cite them as a source and add that to the relevant pages in the relevant places.

Note even if you were doing the above, the relevant spot wouldn't be in the first few paragraphs of the page.
Those paragraphs are to give people an introduction to the topic of the page.
They aren't for dumping several examples of some specific controversial claims made about the subject.

Also, just because you have a source and a citation, that doesn't make it a good one. If you make an edit with no/too few/bad citations, then expect it to be reverted.
Hi Bunny Fofo,

You are entirely correct. You are obviously someone who cares about Wikipedia too. Are you an editor there too? The facts that both astronauts and poultry workers have to wear diapers are duly cited facts. My own belief that we might do better as ABDL's if we stop feeling so guilty or ashamed about our condition is an idea that I believe might be supported by these duly cited facts (as far as I can see). As far as I know, my article edit only lists these rather noteworthy facts about astronauts and such. My own personal ideas about these facts were not mentioned in my article edit, at least as far as I know. Please let me know specifically what you are not comfortable with about the edit if you might have found otherwise in my edit there. I always try to stay open to improvement!

Thanks,

Yooda
 
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PS: Regarding editing Wikipedia.... it took me several years to learn how to edit Wikipedia without having my edits erased nearly immediately, nearly every time. New editors are always welcomed there. Still, unless you might be willing to put up with a bunch of overworked editors who instead of giving you an "F" for your penmanship, will simply delete your work with no more of a comment than something like "OR", for the first few years you are there, you may not enjoy it over there. Welcome, but good luck if you try.
 
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It's clear you're a big fan of this idea and your edit but I have to say I'm very much not.
The more I look at your edit, the more I see to dislike.

Biggest problem, you've just butchered the start of the page.
It used to have a sweet, succinct paragraph describing what an adult diaper is, and some common reasons why/when they might be worn.

Now the opening is twice as long and for no good reason.

It's also very poorly written to the point that it's misleading.
Look below and see how it's accidentally written to say that the listed types of incontinence are different potential types and causes of _functional_ incontinence.
It should be the other way around BUT this isn't even the page for incontinence, so none of this belongs here in the first place.

All the stuff in red is only tangentially relevant to the topic or worse.
It should be moved to some other location or deleted.

An adult diaper (or adult nappy in Australian English, British English, and Hiberno-English) is a diaper made to be worn by a person with a body larger than that of an infant or toddler. Adult Diapers can be necessary for adults with, or in, various conditions and circumstances, such as astronauts whose lives might be endangered if not wearing incontinence products while on space walks, and also while such astronauts are assigned to other similar tasks, poultry processing plant workers whose supervisors have been known to require the use of incontinence products,[1] and there is even concern that Amazon drivers wear diapers,[2] who are technically not allowed to enter most bathrooms while out on delivery.

When normally "continent" people may be required to wear incontinence products, this type of diaper use is sometimes referred to as "occupational incontinence product usage." When incontinence products must be worn for medical or reduced mobility reasons, this is usually referred to simply as "functional incontinence." Functional incontinence has many different potential types and causes including
(those with,) simple urinary incontinence, fecal incontinence, severe diarrhea, (or) dementia, and impaired mobility related incontinence. Adult diapers are made in various forms, including those resembling traditional child diapers, underpants, and pads resembling sanitary napkins (known as incontinence pads). Superabsorbent polymer is primarily used to absorb bodily wastes and liquids.
Just look how long we have to wait until we learn that an adult diaper might be worn by someone with incontinence!

There is also no need to list out different kinds of incontinence, that's what the page on incontinence is for.
I've kept urinary and fecal both listed simply because Wikipedia doesn't have a general page that includes both kinds and nothing else.

I think there's potential to make the start of the page better with some small changes or additions.
But I think you've made the opening worse with relatively massive additions.

Second problem, at least some of the information added is dubious. Here's one example.
When normally "continent" people may be required to wear incontinence products, this type of diaper use is sometimes referred to as "occupational incontinence product usage."
I have never heard of this phrase before.
You do not give a citation for this phrase.
I have to wonder if it's true or not.
In any case:
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know what an adult diaper is and wants to learn about them, this just isn't relevant.
It definitely doesn't belong in the _opening_ of the adult diaper page.
 
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Well my green friend, I think the edits are pretty good, and agree that the known reasons for work use are good first to maybe keep the reader past the first 2 seconds, seems people these days have no patience...You my gren friend need to start training more in the way of the force, maybe a youtube channel is in your future. :)

Seriously, there is more places where diapers or "pads" are used too, when in full pressure hasmat type suits, you better plan way in advance, or i know truckers will use them too, sometimes there is no good place to pull over a semi, yes a hand urinal works for men, women drive too.

But realy there is a bunch of reasons for using diapers especially seems for women quite often with childbirth and other bladder issues, it's not just an old age, or back issue, or diabetes or etc...

too many reasons physically to list, and that doesnt even get into the psyc realm, from being comfort, to not being able to stand in front of a 20' metal gutter mounted on the wall with 20 others uring flowing by, or even when maybe got a broken foot/etc and would take a long time to get to a bathroom, let alone trying the cue for 1/2 hour, which is the actual case.


Keep up the good work, the wiki gets better every day, and whilst i havent donated in quite some time, not much money these days, i do still get something in from time to time.

Editing you must for wiki understand to be.
 
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I tried doing edits here and there on the subject, with links to references & all. You guys at Wikipedia kept deleting them, time and time again. I suggest Wikipedia ends their "anyone can edit" policy because it's rubbish...too many prima donnas there get offended over the tiniest edits. Face it...Wikipedia's a club.
 
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Bigbabybret said:
I think the edits are pretty good, and agree that the known reasons for work use are good first to maybe keep the reader past the first 2 seconds, seems people these days have no patience...
No. Wrong.

I have all the patience in the world for well written, relevant information, if it's at least plausible and given support.

The amount of time I want to spend reading poorly written, irrelevant and/or misleading info is ZERO.
That's not a problem with my attention span.
I do not like having my time wasted, or being mislead.
I don't like it when other people's time is wasted or they're lied to either.

Hey, did you miss the bit where I said all that stuff could go somewhere else?
Like in the incontinence page? Or elsewhere in the adult diaper page?

How does that work with your remark above about lack of patience?
Because it obviously doesn't fit.

Bigbabybret said:
Seriously, there is more places where diapers or "pads" are used too, when in full pressure hasmat type suits, you better plan way in advance, or i know truckers will use them too, sometimes there is no good place to pull over a semi, yes a hand urinal works for men, women drive too.

But realy there is a bunch of reasons for using diapers especially seems for women quite often with childbirth and other bladder issues, it's not just an old age, or back issue, or diabetes or etc...

Oh, so here's you admitting that you didn't even take the time to read the entire page.
It seems that YOU lack patience.

If you read the entire, actual Wikipedia entry you'd know that all this stuff was already mentioned before the edit!
 
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You should add this:- Beijing Olympics 2008.

Olympics Opening: Soldiers wore nappies for seven-hour stint at Olympic opening

Soldiers operating the huge scroll that formed the centrepiece of last week's Olympic opening ceremony had to stay hidden under the structure for up to seven hours, wearing nappies because they were not allowed toilet breaks, state media reported on Friday.



Nearly 900 soldiers were hidden underneath the scroll, many of them moving giant printing blocks with Chinese characters, the Beijing News reported.



"The performers for Chinese character parts went into the models underground at 2 pm, and after getting in there they could not come out," the newspaper quoted choreographer Han Lixun as saying.



"The underground area was so hot, there were 897 people there, and they had to wait until they finished their performance," Han said.



"So altogether they had to stay there for six to seven hours, and they could not even go to the toilet, so they all wore nappies," Han said.
 
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BunnyFofo said:
No. Wrong.

I have all the patience in the world for well written, relevant information, if it's at least plausible and given support.

The amount of time I want to spend reading poorly written, irrelevant and/or misleading info is ZERO.
That's not a problem with my attention span.
I do not like having my time wasted, or being mislead.
I don't like it when other people's time is wasted or they're lied to either.

Hey, did you miss the bit where I said all that stuff could go somewhere else?
Like in the incontinence page? Or elsewhere in the adult diaper page?

How does that work with your remark above about lack of patience?
Because it obviously doesn't fit.



Oh, so here's you admitting that you didn't even take the time to read the entire page.
It seems that YOU lack patience.

If you read the entire, actual Wikipedia entry you'd know that all this stuff was already mentioned before the edit!
Well, I said MOST, i guess your not most then, and i applaud your fortitude towards this end.

You seem angry about a general remark, it was NOT directed towards anyone in specific.

And yes, i do not real the entire article if it's not needed or desired, we do like is a semi free society in the US at least that is what they say, still havent met They yet though.

Really, I'm not going to read the whole arduino IDE manual to lookup something specific i need to do. Nor have i read end to end the entire history of VI, yet i use it every day.

Now, if you personally took offence to a general remark meant for the entire population as a whole, I can't really help that other than to say that I did not mention not so much as even a group like genx or genz, etc.

So, I deeply apologise for any offence you may have taken as it was not specific to you.

Also wanted to say, yes i mentioned the things that i agree with on the article, and feel that is a good thing, giving the editor the positive feedback is just as good as negative, as that is a reason to keep that information in place.
 
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You might consider including that some people with uteruses use them if their flow is particularly heavy. Someone in my life is perimenopausal and has commented that it might soon become a necessity for her.
 
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Bigbabybret said:
Well, I said MOST, i guess your not most then, and i applaud your fortitude towards this end.

You seem angry about a general remark, it was NOT directed towards anyone in specific.

And yes, i do not real the entire article if it's not needed or desired, we do like is a semi free society in the US at least that is what they say, still havent met They yet though.

Really, I'm not going to read the whole arduino IDE manual to lookup something specific i need to do. Nor have i read end to end the entire history of VI, yet i use it every day.

Now, if you personally took offence to a general remark meant for the entire population as a whole, I can't really help that other than to say that I did not mention not so much as even a group like genx or genz, etc.

So, I deeply apologise for any offence you may have taken as it was not specific to you.

I mean, I don't know for sure you were talking about me.

But you did just offer me a fake apology where you "apologize" for the offense that I may have taken.
So that doesn't reflect well on your candor.

And then there's the timeline where I made a post that included this:
Just look how long we have to wait until we learn that an adult diaper might be worn by someone with incontinence!
And then the very next post is yours with the bit about a lack of patience.
Oh but that was about the general population, not me you say.
Really?
What is the relevance of the general population?

Has the general population commented in this thread?
No?
Has the general population offered any negative feedback on recent Wikipedia edits to the page for Adult Diaper?
Obviously not.

Sounds like you were alluding to me.

Also wanted to say, yes i mentioned the things that i agree with on the article, and feel that is a good thing, giving the editor the positive feedback is just as good as negative, as that is a reason to keep that information in place.
Feedback that is not critical and does not seriously engage with what was done is not "just as good" as feedback that is critical and does seriously engage with what was done.
 
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BunnyFofo said:
It's clear you're a big fan of this idea and your edit but I have to say I'm very much not.
The more I look at your edit, the more I see to dislike.

Biggest problem, you've just butchered the start of the page.
It used to have a sweet, succinct paragraph describing what an adult diaper is, and some common reasons why/when they might be worn.

Now the opening is twice as long and for no good reason.

It's also very poorly written to the point that it's misleading.
Look below and see how it's accidentally written to say that the listed types of incontinence are different potential types and causes of _functional_ incontinence.
It should be the other way around BUT this isn't even the page for incontinence, so none of this belongs here in the first place.

All the stuff in red is only tangentially relevant to the topic or worse.
It should be moved to some other location or deleted.


Just look how long we have to wait until we learn that an adult diaper might be worn by someone with incontinence!

There is also no need to list out different kinds of incontinence, that's what the page on incontinence is for.
I've kept urinary and fecal both listed simply because Wikipedia doesn't have a general page that includes both kinds and nothing else.

I think there's potential to make the start of the page better with some small changes or additions.
But I think you've made the opening worse with relatively massive additions.

Second problem, at least some of the information added is dubious. Here's one example.

I have never heard of this phrase before.
You do not give a citation for this phrase.
I have to wonder if it's true or not.
In any case:
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know what an adult diaper is and wants to learn about them, this just isn't relevant.
It definitely doesn't belong in the _opening_ of the adult diaper page.
Everybody else here seems to like the edit. I don't see any problem describing one noteworthy use of adult diapers as an "occupational tool" in the beginning. It tends to grab the reader's interest, because that is indeed one legitimate use for them. Do you feel that we should "hide" this fact about the "occupational use" of diapers somewhere deep in the article where folks normally don't read? I for one am tired of feeling I have to accept the status quo view of adult diapers, that they are only for people with "functional incontinence." Is that your belief perhaps? If not, then what exactly is your belief about the "occupational use" of adult diapers?

Thanks,

Yooda
 
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JDCH said:
You might consider including that some people with uteruses use them if their flow is particularly heavy. Someone in my life is perimenopausal and has commented that it might soon become a necessity for her.
Great idea! I'll see if I might somehow be able to weave that into the beginning. Thanks for the comment!
 
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BobbiSueEllen said:
I tried doing edits here and there on the subject, with links to references & all. You guys at Wikipedia kept deleting them, time and time again. I suggest Wikipedia ends their "anyone can edit" policy because it's rubbish...too many prima donnas there get offended over the tiniest edits. Face it...Wikipedia's a club.
Yes, Wikipedia can be a real "meatgrinder" especially for those of the fairer sex. Testosterone flows freely over there. In my not so humble opinion, they could use a lot more kindness over there, and a little less rudeness.
 
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I get what you're trying to do here, @Yooda but there are a lot of issues that you need to fix in order to bring this article up to Wikipedia standards, many of which @BunnyFofo has been helpful enough to point out but you have not addressed yet.
 
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Second problem, at least some of the information added is dubious. Here's one example.

When normally "continent" people may be required to wear incontinence products, this type of diaper use is sometimes referred to as "occupational incontinence product usage."

I have never heard of this phrase before.
You do not give a citation for this phrase.
I have to wonder if it's true or not.
In any case:
Putting myself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know what an adult diaper is and wants to learn about them, this just isn't relevant.
It definitely doesn't belong in the _opening_ of the adult diaper page.
I've never heard of the phrase before either. Where is the citation for this claim, @Yooda? Your usage of quotes is also problematic here. But aside from that, there is a whole host of non-occupational reasons why a continent individual might opt to wear an adult diaper, such as a lack of availability of public restroom facilities or to hold a place in line or a seat a concert.
 
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When incontinence products must be worn for medical or reduced mobility reasons, this is usually referred to simply as "functional incontinence." Functional incontinence has many different potential types and causes including simple urinary incontinence, fecal incontinence, severe diarrhea, dementia, and impaired mobility related incontinence.

This is also not true. Incontinence is not defined by the need to wear incontinence products. It is defined by the uncontrolled leakage of urine or stool. Functional incontinence just means that a person is aware of the need to urinate, but for one or more physical or mental reasons they are unable to get to a bathroom. The accurate thing to say would be that incontinence products can be worn to manage functional incontinence. And why list the types and causes of functional incontinence? Just get rid of that sentence entirely.
 
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Yooda said:

Read the second paragraph of the article. You could read the article directly at: Wikipedia- Adult Diapers. I probably should have put these links in this thread's first post. Better late than never.
So, I'm afraid you've missed my point here... The article reads: "Adult Diapers can be necessary for adults with, or in, various conditions and circumstances..." It's clearly intended to say "with incontinence," there's a gaping hole (in a rather literal sense, a literal space where it should be after the word "with") there where incontinence isn't mentioned until rather far into the article.
EDIT: Okay, so, the last time I looked at the article, I could have sworn there was an extra space after with, before the comma, where "incontinence" would have been (and I think it previously was there), but it appears to be gone now?

Additionally, as others have alluded to, typical Wikipedia style does a very brief, one or two paragraph summary, before diving into deeper details. You're diving into heavy detail, and in particular, detail that doesn't relate to traditional incontinence (which is arguably the primary usage for adult diapers, and as such, should probably come first), far too early in the article. Functional incontinence deserves recognition, but isn't the primary reason for the use of adult diapers. A more general mention of incontinence should come first, with such detail provided later, outside of the introduction, and probably after a similar amount of detail has been provided for other reasons for the usage of adult diapers. As also mentioned by others, incontinence as a reason for functional incontinence doesn't make much sense. I would say that a simple mention of incontinence and other basic things should follow "with" in that early phrase, as I think it did prior to your edit. Without it there, the sentence is convoluted and incredibly confusing.

Also, you're using Southern Early Childhood as a source, and it's hard to get more unreliable than that. If you browse their site, and take the time to read their articles to the end, you'll find that almost all of its articles show the hallmarks of having been written by a large language model/AI, starting on one subject, and kind of meandering around it, but not quite sticking to it, saying numerous nonsensical things about adjacent subjects, before finally veering to a completely separate subject altogether, within the same article. The longer the article goes on, the more confusing, nonsensical, and off-topic it gets, as is typical for lengthy question and answer sessions with AIs. For instance, it might be an article about adult diapers, and it'll suddenly veer into talking about potty training children or baby diapers (such as here: https://www.southernearlychildhood....k-like-diapers-exploring-the-factors-at-play/), or it's an article about children and diapers, and it'll suddenly veer into talking about adults and even ABDLs. While I don't think it touches on that, this is one article that has many great examples of jumping around and saying nonsensical things...almost the entire article is marketing blurbs, copied and pasted together, and at one point, while talking about sizing, it calls GoodNites "shoes;" it also jumps over to talking about pull-ups, the exercise: https://www.southernearlychildhood....ll-up-diapers-for-children-and-parents-alike/ With regard to its articles about children and diapers, plenty of those are innocent enough, aside from sudden topic changes, but some of them are rather disturbing, judging strictly from the titles, going into subjects such as tutorials on how to get kids to like diapers. Welcome to what happens when you have an AI diving too deep into a subject and just generating as much content as it possibly can. It seems like whoever was creating these articles (which may not have even been a person...you can get an AI to control another AI, so the entire process could have been, and probably was, automated) fed an AI a series of questions, and then used those questions as section headings for articles, with the answers to those questions being the content for those sections. This seems to be the main reason the subject jumps around so much, because the AI answering those questions probably didn't know it was all meant to go into the same article about a single subject.

The specific article you cited makes a number of dubious claims, such as stating that Amazon facilities don't have bathrooms of their own (while elsewhere in the same article, talking about Amazon's bathrooms), and that employees are encouraged to use nearby public restrooms at other businesses. Or that diapers are a required part of their uniform (many people may wear diapers, but they're not part of the uniform). Articles on this site are also prone to referencing and quoting very specific personal stories about people's experiences, without context about what the people are saying or even who the people are. They've clearly been lifted by an AI from existing articles elsewhere, and are just being spat back out with minimal alterations and no context. For instance, the article you cited mentions something about "at Kyle's warehouse," without having mentioned Kyle previously or ever again. It also makes an odd mention of an "event" at the end of that paragraph that makes little sense. Or, in a section talking about whether or not showers are available at Amazon, it seems to quote some sort of workplace documentation wholesale, for the entire paragraph, about how bike cages are available, and other amenities for bikers, before finally mentioning in passing that there is a shower for bikers. Another giveaway about the dubious nature of the site is that literally every single article has the same author, Sharon, with no last name, producing stunning numbers of articles in a single day. Her LinkedIn link below her picture also doesn't lead to a valid account.

I'm afraid this simply isn't a valid source for a Wikipedia article.
EDIT: I found another great example of how it wanders away from its subjects. I'm just throwing this here because it's comically bad. This article manages to start with an article about the resemblance of white underwear to diapers, and ends with asking whether or not vaginal discharge is a sign of pregnancy. https://www.southernearlychildhood....k-like-diapers-exploring-the-factors-at-play/

Please note that I welcome improvements to the article, and I value your enthusiasm for the subject, and the effort you've put in, but this needs significant work and better sources. Boy, I sound like someone on a Wikipedia talk page, don't I? I know it can be easy to take negative feedback personally, and it looks like you're getting a fair bit... Allow me to direct you to this video, which is one, pretty neat, but also provides some good perspective on the importance of negative feedback. It is an hour long, but it's worth a watch, even if you split it into two days (halfway through is a great place to pause).
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BunnyFofo said:
I mean, I don't know for sure you were talking about me.

But you did just offer me a fake apology where you "apologize" for the offense that I may have taken.
So that doesn't reflect well on your candor.

And then there's the timeline where I made a post that included this:

And then the very next post is yours with the bit about a lack of patience.
Oh but that was about the general population, not me you say.
Really?
What is the relevance of the general population?

Has the general population commented in this thread?
No?
Has the general population offered any negative feedback on recent Wikipedia edits to the page for Adult Diaper?
Obviously not.

Sounds like you were alluding to me.


Feedback that is not critical and does not seriously engage with what was done is not "just as good" as feedback that is critical and does seriously engage with what was done.
Well, I'm not going to or want to disrail this tread further, but maybe somebody needs a nap?

Back on topic, The green one here is attempting to update things to get moving in the right direction, not to rewrite the whole page, nor would that most likely fly by most editors to get posted.

Wiki style or croud style editing is good for getting a lot of information started, then over time items will get corrected or modified as needed to either fix errors (that is the easy one) or to change the general tone or the public sensabilities.

I appreciate Yooda doing this and taking input from the community into consideration. I know that as a whole seems to be engaged in trying to better things. That said is going to use the force to compile things people mention and will either include or not the things that will make it closer to what this community would like to see, but that also means he needs to balance that with public impressions, and even more tempor it to the point where the edits will bend the page in the right direction without snapping it in half.

I do-not envy his job editing things on this type of approch. I'll be honest to say that I might hit a wiki maybe 1-2 times a month. I am aware of the usefullness of it very well, and in the past when i used to work for a living used something easily daily in many facets from documentation of contracts i would do, to even directing clients to employees there quite often for ref on lots of odd explaination insted of trying to either include every exact explaination of as example limitations of barcode systems, or physical things.

But, I do understand people want there voice to be heard loud and clear, but that does not require someone that is obviously going out of the way to do this already.

Now without any sarcasm at all. People need to recognise the benifit of someone including them up front, state what they personally like/dont like, and really unless the green one asks for a something to be clairified or additional input/context the they will literally use there gray matter, past experiance with wiki, existing information, referances, and do the best to thread the needle so to speak.

Noone nor ,especially, something like wiki will make everyone happy, that is literally impossible.

I appreciate that imput was asked for, and I as only one person on this tiny rock here may have differing opnions, from agreeable to completely opposed to the OP.

Now, back to the regular chaos.
 
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