You, Your Country, and Being Patriotic

Status
Not open for further replies.

MysteriousVisitor

Est. Contributor
Messages
1,214
Role
Diaper Lover
Anarchy. Capitalism relies on the government to keep it (if it can be personified) in power. Remove compulsory government, and you remove the thing that empowers oppressive Capitalism.
 

avery

Est. Contributor
Messages
1,675
Role
Private
is anarchism such an outrageous political philosophy? i'm pretty close to considering myself an anarchist. i can't see a totally authority-free society working practically on a large scale, but i think most if not all governmental structures are harmful and should be opposed.

i know plenty of people who consider themselves radical anarchists. that sort of thinking gets a lot more attention and respect than most people are aware.
 

MysteriousVisitor

Est. Contributor
Messages
1,214
Role
Diaper Lover
Anarchy is a completely legitimate ideology. Getting beyond the black flag waving kids who wouldn't know anarchy if it sat on their head, there are people that genuinly understand Anarchy, and work for what amounts to self-determination.

Anarchy asks a more basic question then other Ideologies. Why is it any less valid then Republicanism, Democracy, Monarchy, or Tyranny?
 

Aidy

Est. Contributor
Messages
334
Role
Adult Baby, Little, Carer
Ok. I think anarchy is an excellent ideal that the human race should strive for as it recognises the individuals right to govern himself. However, as said by John Zerzan, a prominant anarchist, anarchy requires the whole world to love in a way that is not possible.

I did a huge thing on anarchy but I accidentally clicked a link and lost it. So now I'll just sum it up.

Anarchy is the individual working in a community of no more then 1000 (individual voice gets lost in more people) for personal benefit through the benefit of the community. Social pressure is used to keep the peace and, failing that, everyone is armed... depending on the philosophy you follow.

So that makes 6 000 000 independent communities world wide and all meant to be peaceful and loving working for an adequate life. They are meant to help each other in times of hardship, such as big tidal waves that kill 200 000 people and work together for world goals. Those world goals are a huge problem due to the individual nature of anarchy. Imagine trying to get 6 000 000 communities to talk about global warming.

Prerequisites for anarchy.
Peace, world love, no greed, people must be content to live in their area and must be able to survive in their area and more time talking to solve problems then working (which is very attainable as we work way too much for little gain)

One of the pet hates of anarchy is that all the work you do goes to the government. Taxes.

Anyway.. like I said. A very nice ideal that we should work towards at all times as the real philosophy brings out the best in people (lots of anarchists seem to be in charity work) but it won't be attainable in many many lifetimes according to most leading anarchists (who aren't waving the flags)

Note, you cannot argue very easily with anarchists as they kind of ignore the problems and focus on the benefits without really solving the problems. (Even if they think they do)
 
E

Error404

Guest
I'm not, and never will be patriotic, not to any country, we let this planet die day by day and destroy everything we need to survive.

I just can't find any respect for any government at all. (If I'm being honest, 98% of the human race too.)
 

Aidy

Est. Contributor
Messages
334
Role
Adult Baby, Little, Carer
Ok. I will only really talk about your idea of classification. Classification is also known as "stereotyping" which is a very important, beneficial, part of all societies. If you do not judge someone based on their culture you are most definitely going to misunderstand them or insult them in some way. The other thing stereotyping is used for is protection. You see a man standing in a dark alley with tattoos and scars all over the body and you straight away stereotype him as a threat. You may not act on that stereotype but you put yourself on alert just in case.

Ok, beneficial classification. I will pick one that I know a bit about. Nyungar Aboriginals. If you do not classify them as an Nyungar Aboriginal but as just any old human you are going to make huge social blunders, look like an idiot and probably insult them, especially with kids and old people. You may force a kid to look you in the eye and you are insulting them or pat them on the back and insult them again. You may completely misunderstand something they say even though it's in plain normal English because you haven't taken into account that they are Nyungar.
Hell, you could easily cause a deadly insult to an eldar just by not classifying her as "an old woman."

Hell, if I didn't classify people as Americans while traveling I would have insulted them so much as they have a different sense of humour and many are more easily insulted then Australians.

Classifying someone gives you a starting point to start the relationship you are going to have with them. (That's not meaning sex or anything) From there you can find out who they are as an individual. You may find that this American doesn't get insulted by you making jokes about them or you may find that the Nyungar eldar doesn't get pissed off if you look them in the eye.

Classification is something shouldn't be suppressed but something that should be used as a tool and something that you should be aware of at all times so it doesn't have a negative effect, such as with racism. If you ignore the benefits you are extremely stupid.

The only way to stop classification and therefore to "progress" (which I think is extremely ridiculous from my logic) is to make everyone the same. Destroy cultural differences and create a single culture that has no differences that we should be aware of. Anything else and we need to classify.

And please PLEASE if we are going to argue stop making up definitions and get them from a real dictionary. I just double checked to make sure but patriotism does not mean nationalism.
Australian Oxford Dictionary: Nationalism - the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
Patriotism - The devotion to a culture, country or community.

Note the difference. I could go on to say that it is possibly to live in a anarchist community and be patriotic to that community. Devotion doesn't mean you are devoted to pushing it at the expense of everyone else.

I will go on to address this so called "patriotism inevitably leading to nationalism." Oh poo, I'm going to become a nationalist just because I'm a patriot. It's inevitable. It is definitely going to happen and most Australian's are now nationalists who are going to sacrifice the world for their own benefit. Damn.
One does not lead to the other. Just because a patriot can be a nationalist does not mean they are. A Muslim can become a fanatic but doesn't mean they will. (I could say that nationalists are fanatics and wouldn't be far from the truth)

I will also acknowledge that some internet sources said that nationalism is patriotism but I think I'll trust a published dictionary myself. You aren't allowed to use internet sources that aren't published when researching topics as they can make up facts and not be accountable. :)

I think the main problem with many anarchists is that they completely ignore the benefits of other systems other then their own or things that contradict them. This is probably going to be demonstrated by Spark in his next comment in relation to this. They refuse to acknowledge that anarchy cannot work even when very educated anarchists say it is highly unlikely to be able to be used in humanity. (Sam Dolgoff and John Zerzan)

Another pet hate of Anarchists is pride for ones country (referred to as "State" by anarchists which is correct). The exact opposite of this is shame for ones state which many people feel when their country does something wrong. They fail to accept the fact the patriots feel deep shame for things their country has done in their name. This shame is what sets nationalism and patriotism far apart from my understanding of the words. (Dictionary definition understanding)

Yes, it does. And you should be ashamed of yourself for promoting an ideology based on Nationalism.
Yo failed to address the fact that patriotism allows people to feel ashamed of their country in order to push issues that benefit others who are less fortunate then them. Pure anarchism will not benefit people like Tsunami victims just like pure capitalism would not. Countries being accountable in the world theater and to their people is what got the aid to the victims. In anarchy they would have had to talk and come to a community agreement to contribute aid before they could even start sending it. Every single community would have to do this and many wouldn't come to an agreement for months and by that time it's not useful.

Murder kills one but nationalism has killed millions.
*Aidy imagines the letter N pulling the leaver on the gas chamber while A T I O N L S and M stand by and laugh.

Words and ideas do not kill millions of people. HUMANS KILLED MILLIONS OF PEOPLE!!! Nationalism didn't wipe out the Mau Mau or the Tootsies, nationalism hasn't killed 5 million people in 10 years in the Congo, nationalism isn't responsible for Darfur or Napal or the thousands of people that die in gang wars throughout the world.
Congo is greed but not capitalism, drugs and small groups of people fighting to gain control of resources and starvation.
Tootsies is racism.
Mau Mau was racism.
Napal is just plain greed but not capitalism.
Vietnam was greed in the form of capitalism.
Nationalism COULD account for 2 wars in the history of the modern world and even then it was more complex then just "nationalism."
But of course you will only focus on the world wars, like my cousins who preached this nationalism hate, because you are ignorant of the 90 or so wars that are going on at this very moment that are related to drugs and starvation.

Also, I love that batter and cake comment. (Not sarcastic) and I'm going to use it now.
I prefer to eat the batter before it becomes a cake. It tastes so much better. (That is metaphorically and I just love cake batter)

I would also like to remind you that I deeply respect that anarchist philosophy and many of the people who seek it out. Most of them are doing great things in the name of attaining it with a minority (black flag people) doing the exact opposite of what is required. (They hurt the police when anarchy requires love to work.. they are not anarchists)
Anarchy is like Taoism. Being perfect isn't attainable but you should always strive for it.
I hope one day it does work.

For an excellent explanation of the philosophy of anarchy
John Lennon - Imagine
 

Ren

Est. Contributor
Messages
134
Role
Diaper Lover, Babyfur
Are you Patriotic? Why/why not?

I am. I love my country, its ideals, its history and the values it spreads, like every country, it has its bad things but I rescue many good things that you can't find easily.

Where do you live? Is this a Patriotic place in general?

I won't say where I live cuz' I want to keep that private...but normally yes. it can get MORE patriotic in certain regions to the point it grows stupid (for example, I know the case of a friend of mine. when she was a kid, her teacher didnt let her act in a play of some traditional celebration in the country because she was blond. And being blond is rare here )

Is being Patriotic a good thing? Can you ever be too Patriotic?

It's good to be patriotic if you ask me because it is something that makes you want to help your community and spread the good values to other societies. Yes. its definitely a possiblity to be an extremist in being patriotic (and everything) like the aforementioned case (my friend LOVES my country too and was offended and sad by that, for example.

Is Patriotism twisted or misused in some ways? (For example here it seems it's used as a racist thing.)

Yeah. Of course. it's not exactly patriotism...but the crusades who brought naught but death where just an excuse to steal the gold in the land of jerusalem claiming to spread the holy roman empire's religion, liberation or so. So it evoked some sort of patriotism from the knights. Tons of examples like this, before and now.
 

Titus

Est. Contributor
Messages
240
Role
Adult Baby, Carer
Are you Patriotic?
I wouldn't count myself as being patriotic in any the sense of the word. As someone else already stated: A country is just set of borders and politics attached with them. Well, at least in my view it is.
To be patriotic, would for me, mean to be faithfull to the working government, the culture and the nations history. All these are just aspects of random segments of human nature. Nothing special.
I greatly oppose the idea of elitism in that sense. No country can claim to be any better than the next one because of the unatural interaction between the nations and its downfalls.
For one, when people act proud that they are from europe and think that by natural selection other, poorer countries should bow to them, I want to smack them in the face. How on earth did we get the nerve to refer to the poorer section of the world as 'the third world' ? Our culture is much younger and less complex than that of the rest of the world. The only reason we are on top of the foodchain now is because we lucked out, and because we used any means that were available to us with the philosophy that the cause justify the means. History has shown the western world to be a gang of brutal bastards without morals.

Where do you live? Is this a Patriotic place in general?
I live in Norway. The juwel of snow, ice and frost. Just the way I like it. Now I can't speak for everyone else up here, but I would consider that the positive spin on the word 'patriot' is a term tucked away in a dusty old storage cabbinette, reserved and used only for attracting tourists, and to marginalize our expenses and up our profitts overseas.
We have lost our culture, our history to capitalism. No, I'm not joking. There's nothing special about our country anymore. The capital cities, all resembles that of bleak knockoffs of other european cities.
As you probably can tell by the general tone of my reply, I'm not very patriotic. All bits and pieces of history that tells of a unique Norway have either been erased and washed away by time, or shown to be false.

Is being Patriotic a good thing? Can you ever be too Patriotic?
One should maintain a sense of loyality to the ones that have brought you this life, that enables you to live the life you're leading. I guess what I'm saying is that you shouldn't readily attack the hand that feeds you. Self preservation or cowardice, its all the same in the end.

Is Patriotism twisted or misused in some ways? (For example here it seems it's used as a racist thing.)
Of course patriotism is misused! We see it everyday, some people with more attachments to the dusty pages of history than living people of today.

is anarchism such an outrageous political philosophy?
I definitely don't think so. I believe that in order to maintain a working government one should have aspects of anarchy, as well as from communism and capitalism.
 

Izzy

Est. Contributor
Messages
378
Role
Adult Baby, Diaper Lover, Babyfur, Little
A quick reply to sparkmaster's post:

Marxist dialectic with an anarchist streak? Sweet Jesus.
Anarchism and Marxism don't make functional sense.
Capitalism is the simple production and trade of goods for a price. Barter is capitalism.

Answer that contradiction and maybe I'll take you seriously. If not, go learn something.

Anyway, I'm very patriotic.
I do happen to think that America is the city on the Hill. I also happen to think this of Western culture in general, but regardless...
 
Messages
3,353
Role
Private
Today was St. George's day. And in England, it's also a national day (like 4th of July for Americans).
I saw a lot of England flags about, and it got me thinking about being Patriotic...

In England, if you see an England flag it usually means that England are playing in some sport internationally. So the England flag is more of a sport symbol.

I can't speak for the whole country, but when I see a Union Jack* it's nearly always on someone's house, and from that I assume that means the person who lives there is a right-wing racist.

*I'm not sure how much other people will know about this stuff, so I'll explain a little. The UK (united kingdom) is a country that is made up of countries (countries within countries!), the Union Jack is made up of both the Scottish and English flags. England and Wales are different countries... but really there's little difference in laws, mainly because England pretty much controlled Wales ages ago (hence the Welsh not getting anything from their flag put on the flag). England and Scotland are more independent, and laws and legal stuff can vary.

I was wondering how Patriotic I was. I like Britain, and I'm quite proud to be British. But I don't know about the rest of the country, I don't really get a Patriotic vibe.
Places like America seem very Patriotic, sometimes too Patriotic. :p
But I like the little things, like having American flags at schools or libraries, and the "Pledge of Allegiance". These are just things I've seen on TV though.

So, the questions:
Are you Patriotic? Why/why not?
Where do you live? Is this a Patriotic place in general?
Is being Patriotic a good thing? Can you ever be too Patriotic?
Is Patriotism twisted or misused in some ways? (For example here it seems it's used as a racist thing.)
A quick aside: I thought the Union Jack is a flag flown in official capacity by naval vessals only...

Is being Patriotic a good thing? Can you ever be too Patriotic? Is Patriotism twisted or misused in some ways?
Speaking about America, there is a lot of superficial patriotism here. What I mean by this is that there is little or no understanding of subtlety (as I pointed out in another post somewhere on here) and things unfortunately tend to boil down to one of two outcomes: (1) You're "with" America and the cause of the moment (e.g. the war with Oceana), or (2) You're a Red of some description. Hence, people are patriotic to the point of maintaining a lifestyle that is untennable.

Here, patriotism seems to be the all-encompassing battle cry that politicians can depend on: "Why do you need computer privacy? If you support that, then you clearly support terrorists." September 11, 2001 has proven a red-letter day for this country; that's the day that we point to as being ground zero for rapidly accelerating the signing away of our rights.

Being patriotic can serve handy ends, but as there are very few Philosopher Kings who survive and become part of (or head of) the body politic, my own opinion is that patriotism is principally a lever upon which others can press to meet their own ends. If patriotism is defined as putting one's resident country above oneself, then, no, I am not patriotic. If, however, it means looking ahead and making clear the path to a better future, then I will have to accept that I am patriotic. I think, unfortunately, that the only way that America will reclaim itself from special interest groups and return to a grounded, common understanding of the social contract that binds everyone is through revolution. Unfortunately, in this country (and in Britain, too, as they're following America's lead in education) we have become too stupid to recognize intellectual revolution and enlightenment. Therefore, I think that we're overdue for social revolution at the point of a gun here.

Where do you live? Is this a Patriotic place in general?
I'm unfortunately located in a less enlightened region of the 'States. We're very WASPy here and love our cheap beer, NASCAR, and the American flag. It's pretty sad, really, to watch people hold convictions that they cannot defend or even explore. It would be great fodder for offense, but for the fact that our educational system has left these people without even the tools to begin to explore - these people are, simply put, likely not primarily at fault here.

I do have to caution against something: you had indicated that you liked the "little things" like flags flying here at public buildings. This is fine, but it is the little things that ... I'll say it this way - were I to aspire to become Evil Overlord, this is what I'd do:
  1. Remove Critical Thinking as a skillset (needed or taught) to my subjects;
  2. Ensure everyone in the country had easy access to a reasonable standard of living;
  3. Change architecture of government buildings to imply understated enormity (e.g. through optical illusions, like that employed in Disneyworld);
  4. Subtly alter common-use language and make it impossible to express undesireable thoughts;
  5. Unobtrusively sprinkle the message of my regime through the populace (e.g. fly my banner at all public functions, give out lapel pins, etc.);
  6. Encourage "turn-in" awards for citizens who tip the State to those unfriendly to its cause;
  7. Start the populace thinking this way early - through in-school activities that are interactive and exciting.

My point? It is precisely these little things that one needs to leverage to meet large ends over just a generation or two of steady pressure.

So the quick answers:
Are you Patriotic? Why/why not?
Where do you live? Is this a Patriotic place in general?
Is being Patriotic a good thing? Can you ever be too Patriotic?
Is Patriotism twisted or misused in some ways? (For example here it seems it's used as a racist thing.)
1. No, for reasons discussed above*
2. Middle of the USA; Yes, superficially.
3. It meets handy ends for Evil Overlords; Yes, this is a constant risk that citizenry must be vigilant against.
4. Absolutely (see above text).

Of course, my thinking here is likely moot, as I believe that America is a society in decline. I'm sure that most generations have said things like this, but this country increasingly looks like a burning Rome to me. I don't know if it is that I've finally earned my "old man" wings or not, but this is not the same America of the 1950s. Or of the 1980s or 1990s, even.

* As the UK seems to be following America's lead on social policy issues, I'd expect it to follow suit in this regard, if it hasn't already. As a child, I quite liked Thatcher's showmanship and trappings that oozed power - but, then, I never had to live under her (and am quite lucky for it, in hindsight).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top