Why the world has so many problems

SorcerorElf

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...is because of money. In all seriousness, if we don't start transitioning away from monetary economies, all types of problems, from environmental to social to almost everything else will likely keep going the way it has been.
 

BoundCoder

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I really disagree with this common sentiment.

Money is an abstraction, and I think still a necessary one. Most problems seem to center on money because (as a good abstraction does) money manages to be the end all and be all of everything. Take away money and most of the problems will still exist, they'll just present themselves differently.
 
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Sapphyre

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Money, get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off of my stack
Money, it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the high-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet


It's your fault this is stuck in my head now! :p

But you certainly have a point. Pink Floyd sure thought so.
 

Sapphyre

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I really disagree with this common sentiment.

Money is an abstraction, and I think still a necessary one. Most problems seem to center on money because (as a good abstraction does) money manages to be the end all and be all of everything. Take away money and most of the problems will still exist, they'll just present themselves differently.
Hmmm, perhaps the problem is more accurately "greed" ?
 

BoundCoder

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Well, I think it's a combination of many things.
Greed is probably a big part of it. Finite resources (both material and labor) mean you need _something_ to manage distribution, and whatever that something is, someone is going to want more stuff for less effort.
You're also battling human nature. In fact, I wouldn't even stop at human. You are battling nature in general. Humans don't have the patent on zero sum behaviour. Sure there are examples of cooperation and symbiosis in the animal kingdom, but more often than not animals will tear each other apart over food, mates, territory, or just because. This is baked right into our genes.
 
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dogboy

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When I was young and just married, I worried about money as we didn't have much. Now I worry about politics and how democracy has failed. Solving my money problems was a lot easier than solving all the problems of the U. S.
 

CutePrincess

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We need a "system" of exchange, as you label "money"
the issue is not that money exists, but the greed of humans that control it (i/e upper rich, large corporations, etc)

The bases of money is to make it easy for trade. to make things simple, lets say I put in 1 hr of time doing something. I did this something because I want a cow. I need this cow to kill it so I can eat. But this person is not going to have a cow on hand, but they need a wall to be repaired. So how do I get the value out of my 1 hr of work if this person does not have what I need on hand? This is where money comes on, instead of giving me a cow, the person gives me money, i then use the money to get a cow who has cows on hand.

Because of the above example, "money" likely existed for a lot longer in our history then you give credit for.

the issue that you blamed money on (greed) can exist in a barter system too. You are basically pulling a Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, blaming money (a medium of exchange, it can't do wrong) and not people's greed (the motivation of human nature of selfishness that does harm)
 
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BabyTyrant

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I dont think the problem is "money" rather that most of us will never have enough.

There are the people that have way too much, and then there is everyone else

Plus most of the world depends on some form of money; you really cant get away from that short of living in a community of some sort that does EVERYTHING by themselves for themselves; or you know becoming a Buddhist Monk and giving up all your worldly possessions to live in a temple with other Buddhist Monks

A lot of problems (not everything) could be solved if there was a more even distribution of money, but it will never happen.
 
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ozziebee

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I think the problem isnt money at all, but the Internet, which spawned social media, and made mega-rich individuals, who use money to manipulate via social media everyone else.

In years before the Internet, we had fairly factual news, with a small smattering of global news events (fires floods famines, changes of govt, wars etc).

Now people in other states, and other countries get massive exposure locally to really put the boot in, and there is often no repercussions to doing so. It allows foreign governments to hack their way in from the safety of their own countries, and allow those same foreign governments to pump fake news and propaganda into our very houses and rooms.
 

Slomo

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...is because of money. In all seriousness, if we don't start transitioning away from monetary economies, all types of problems, from environmental to social to almost everything else will likely keep going the way it has been.
Not really. This is kind of like saying guns kill people. Nope, people who misuse guns kill people. And people who misuse money (usually for greed and selfishness) are the ones causing the problems.
 

SorcerorElf

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Hmmm, perhaps the problem is more accurately "greed" ?
Not really. This is kind of like saying guns kill people. Nope, people who misuse guns kill people. And people who misuse money (usually for greed and selfishness) are the ones causing the problems.
I must have worded the initial post poorly. What I mean is that the use of money encourages a lot of problems that could otherwise be greatly reduced. For example, the issue with disposable products. In a monetary economy, where a reuseable shopping bag is worth $5, and lasts about 5 years, and 5 years of plastic bags is worth $100, it would make sense to sell $100 worth of plastic bags. In a bartering or subsistence economy, if someone wanted to trade something for 5 years worth of shopping bags, it would be a heck of a lot easier to make one reuseable bag. Thus, making products that are designed to last shorter than they can becomes a liability instead of an asset.

I don't think the problem of greed will ever be 100% solved, but taking money out of the equation will probably pull the gas hose out of the fire, so to speak.
 

BabyTyrant

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Except that you just cant "take money out of the equation" as there is way too much reliance of it in almost 100% of the world
 

SorcerorElf

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Except that you just cant "take money out of the equation" as there is way too much reliance of it in almost 100% of the world
Not all at once. Just like how almost the whole world's energy supply is based in fossil fuels, but people who don't want the Earth to become like Venus have been slowly transitioning to renewable sources.
 

BabyTyrant

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Not all at once. Just like how almost the whole world's energy supply is based in fossil fuels, but people who don't want the Earth to become like Venus have been slowly transitioning to renewable sources.
Yeah, but you could possibly be talking hundreds of years into the future until such a move might potentially work, you cant have people that were born and grown up on something and just take it away

You have to adjust them into it so further generations will move to not using money, it would be a very slow process.
 

BoundCoder

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Monetary systems evolved in almost every culture for a reason.. barter works in very small scales with very simple communities. When all you cared about was food, shelter, warmth, and sex.. it was easy to say "hey, I have food, and you have the ability to make a hut, and that guy over there can build a fire, and Slagathor over has really big.. *ahem*" and figure things out so everyone got what they needed. Now almost every element in our lives is comprised of hundreds of individual contributions from a huge variety of skills and resources. Just think about how much stuff went into your cellphone, or your car, or your internet access. One to one barter through a non-abstract medium just wouldn't work.

The only saviour I can see is full automation to the point of eliminating resource scarcity. I do think that will eventually happen, but it's a long damn ways off, and the transition is not going to be smooth. In the short term, partial automation means people losing jobs to robots in a world where you still need a job to have any quality of life.
 

CutePrincess

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I must have worded the initial post poorly. What I mean is that the use of money encourages a lot of problems that could otherwise be greatly reduced. For example, the issue with disposable products. In a monetary economy, where a reuseable shopping bag is worth $5, and lasts about 5 years, and 5 years of plastic bags is worth $100, it would make sense to sell $100 worth of plastic bags. In a bartering or subsistence economy, if someone wanted to trade something for 5 years worth of shopping bags, it would be a heck of a lot easier to make one reuseable bag. Thus, making products that are designed to last shorter than they can becomes a liability instead of an asset.

I don't think the problem of greed will ever be 100% solved, but taking money out of the equation will probably pull the gas hose out of the fire, so to speak.
no , see my post, i debunked this and explained why money exists. This statement is completely wrong, taking money out and having a barter system will have zero impact on wealth dependency. This argument of yours is a Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, it does not make sense when you do a in-depth analysis.

We need a "system" of exchange, as you label "money"
the issue is not that money exists, but the greed of humans that control it (i/e upper rich, large corporations, etc)

The bases of money is to make it easy for trade. to make things simple, lets say I put in 1 hr of time doing something. I did this something because I want a cow. I need this cow to kill it so I can eat. But this person is not going to have a cow on hand, but they need a wall to be repaired. So how do I get the value out of my 1 hr of work if this person does not have what I need on hand? This is where money comes on, instead of giving me a cow, the person gives me money, i then use the money to get a cow who has cows on hand.

Because of the above example, "money" likely existed for a lot longer in our history then you give credit for.

the issue that you blamed money on (greed) can exist in a barter system too. You are basically pulling a Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, blaming money (a medium of exchange, it can't do wrong) and not people's greed (the motivation of human nature of selfishness that does harm)
I am not sure what you are trying to explain with the bag costs, sounds like a poor explanation at a attempt to show disagreement with the idea of inflation and connecting it to greed. Assuming this is the case, and even if it is not, this whole topic and the idea is dismissed that human greed and technology (the concept of getting information to far places) have way bigger impacts on the issues you are trying to fix, then the concept of money. If you do not believe this, there is flat out proof with our fist economic bubble with tulips. You can have inflation/ deflation, econ bubbles, and wealth discrepancy without the existence with money. Money is just a convince way of exchanging and an advancement of a barter system, all it is. Removing it does not fix anything.

I had this idea you are presenting when I was way, way yong.. like 7 years old? idm. I dismissed myself when I was playing simulation with this idea and came to the realization this is just a front what money does anyway and achieves what a barting system does.
 
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DanielW

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The world has so many problems because the world has so many people. Regardless of what system of exchange used for goods and services, it is human nature to want something better than his neighbor. Even with a universal income, people will undoubtedly find other ways of making themselves "better" than others. Look at School uniforms for example, they are meant to level the playing field, but you can always tell who has more money, or a more comfortable lifestyle. People will always find ways to distinguish themselves from others.
 

Sapphyre

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The world has so many problems because the world has so many people. Regardless of what system of exchange used for goods and services, it is human nature to want something better than his neighbor. Even with a universal income, people will undoubtedly find other ways of making themselves "better" than others. Look at School uniforms for example, they are meant to level the playing field, but you can always tell who has more money, or a more comfortable lifestyle. People will always find ways to distinguish themselves from others.
One-upsmanship is indeed a major problem holding back the human species. >.<

***

On another note, I think it's also interesting to note that the concept of "value" is much more slippery than it might initially appear. People often think of money as "stored value" but, due to inflation and other factors, the value of a sum of money (in whatever denomination) is not stable and generally falls. You could say that money is a bad long-term investment. Also, the value of things is different for different people, making the concept even more nebulous. I read a book once called One Red Paperclip which, while not terribly well-written, documented the real-life experiment someone thought to do: start with a single red paperclip, and make a trade or swap — no money changing hands — for something that was worth more to him, then trade that in turn, and see what he could build up to. Ultimately, he traded his way to owning a house in Saskatchewan starting from that paperclip. Despite the poor writing, it was an interesting read to see how the trades played out. I do think fascination with his project / idea helped him out a few times though, people likely wouldn't have made a few of the trades otherwise.
 
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ShippoFox

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Yep. Money is very bad. Too many people just want more forever. Too many people need more than they'll ever have. Too many things are ruined because the profits are more important than the service/product itself. Too many people are indoctrinated into thinking money is the most important thing ever. We could make money.... uh.... less evil? ....but more people would have to be interested in doing that. A lot of people don't care if others suffer. They only care about what they have & the smug opportunity to condemn others.

I think a universal income would be a good step toward making money.... less awful. It would probably be a good thing for the economy, too. People who have money can spend money. And as far as we know, we only get one life.... so we should want better things for others, not just ourselves. I don't care how "lazy" one may think someone is.... they still need money to survive. There are also too many people who work multiple jobs and still barely have the money to survive.
 
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