Who ready for Bernie Socialist President.

binkyb

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under free market capitalism everyone has the same shot to make something of themselves, under socialism why would you bother everything is free. Somehow all those high paid university professors who don't exactly put in the hours will give up most of their salaries to a government mandated pay structure, and sorry uk but your health care system sucks in a lot of ways, waiting times, lack of the newest equipment etc, that's why people moved to having supplementary private insurance because the nhs is so overburdened and has huge administrative costs. Venuzuala didn't work, and it's only one step from communism. People say the rich can afford to pay more but they already pay 90% of the taxes. socialism really boils down to those in charge live well, everyone else mediocre at best and no hope of moving up unless you are part of the ruling clique. History in similar forms repeating itself. If you think it's a great idea spend a little time in a socialist country and try to get all that is available to you under free market capitalism good luck. Medicare is broke, social security is almost broke so apparently those great programs aren't so great
 

CaterpillarSick

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under free market capitalism everyone has the same shot to make something of themselves,
No they don’t. Someone who was born to a dirt poor family doesn’t have the same opportunities as someone born to a super wealthy family.
under socialism why would you bother everything is free
This is actually a highly disputed idea in philosophy and economics. Many people choose to take low paying jobs over high paying ones for various reasons. Profit incentive is not the only motivating factor.
sorry uk but your health care system sucks in a lot of ways, waiting times, lack of the newest equipment etc, that's why people moved to having supplementary private insurance
It’s worth noting that the NHS has had an incredibly tight budget that barely covers current needs. This is due to the government implementing austerity measures. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing is up for debate, but this is just as mostly a problem caused by politicians than the system itself.
Venuzuala didn't work, and it's only one step from communism.
Much of that was the result of poor economic planning. The Venezuelan government was highly dependent on the oil market. When the price of oil crashed they lost significant revenue. The US doesn’t have that problem. We have a highly diversified economy that can withstand a downturn in a single sector.
People say the rich can afford to pay more but they already pay 90% of the taxes.
This is a misleading argument. They will always pay more in taxes, even under a flat tax rate, because they make more. If we instead look at effective tax rate, what percentage of your income is paid in taxes, we find that they actually pay less than most people.
socialism really boils down to those in charge live well, everyone else mediocre at best and no hope of moving up unless you are part of the ruling clique. History in similar forms repeating itself.
As I’ve already stated, this is not a hallmark of socialism. This is the defining characteristic of aristocracy. This existed in England and Europe during the 19th century, and we arguably already have this in the US today.
If you think it's a great idea spend a little time in a socialist country and try to get all that is available to you under free market capitalism good luck.
It’s called the Nordic Countries. They actually sell many of the products available in the US.
Medicare is broke, social security is almost broke so apparently those great programs aren't so great
Or they are just underfunded. Or in the case of Medicare the market costs have grown extremely fast.
 

binkyb

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thanks for going line by line,

if you mean by opportunity available capital then ok, other than that there is no hindrance such as old school tie etc from stopping anyone in there endeavors as many people have proved

as for low paying jobs you say some people choose then ok, but the point is they have that choice

the NHS is a bloated government bureaucracy with too many suits before it even gets to the medical staff, compare Doctors salaries against private

your theory on Venezuela is lacking fact they have huge oil exports and shouldn't be where they are to many government programs otherwise other countries who also export oil would be in the same boat... and their not

tax rates hmmmm paying 50% rather than 15% seems contrary to your argument, 50% of people essentialy pay 0, top 5% pay 80%, top 10% pay 90%

And that's my point, it's not a hallmark of socialism percey but an inevitable fact of a hierarchy and everyone else

Why is it socialists always point to nordic countries, I would say they are part socialist ie they have a lot of social programs but they don't nationalise all their business wihich is why they survive. god forbid ikea got nationalized who knows how bad it could get

as for medicare you prove my point its all good till you run out of other people money
 

CaterpillarSick

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the NHS is a bloated government bureaucracy with too many suits before it even gets to the medical staff, compare Doctors salaries against private
Maybe you should. NHS salaries are lower than the salaries of private practice.
your theory on Venezuela is lacking fact they have huge oil exports and shouldn't be where they are to many government programs otherwise other countries who also export oil would be in the same boat... and their not
That’s because the other oil exporting countries have no problem letting people live in squalor.
tax rates hmmmm paying 50% rather than 15% seems contrary to your argument, 50% of people essentialy pay 0, top 5% pay 80%, top 10% pay 90%
No they don’t. No one has an effective tax rate anywhere near those amounts.
And that's my point, it's not a hallmark of socialism percey but an inevitable fact of a hierarchy and everyone else
Except it isn’t. What you’re describing is a political structure that can arise regardless of economic system.
Why is it socialists always point to nordic countries, I would say they are part socialist ie they have a lot of social programs but they don't nationalise all their business wihich is why they survive. god forbid ikea got nationalized who knows how bad it could get
Because they are what is commonly meant by socialist in American discourse. In the US, socialism usually is used synonymously with a many of the ideas of social market economies. Social market economies have many of a mix of socialist and capitalist ideas. This is closely tied to the idea of social democracy.
as for medicare you prove my point its all good till you run out of other people money
Except that also means people not on Medicare are struggling to afford healthcare as well. Thus the problem isn’t with Medicare, but with the healthcare industry as a whole.
 

Cottontail

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I think a Bernie nomination means 4 more years of Trump.
I fear the same. And that would be true of Buttigieg also, albeit for different reasons.

I'd vastly prefer either of them to Trump, don't get me wrong. Neither seems electable, though. In fact, I don't like the electability of any of the Democratic contenders at the moment. It's a pretty weak field right now, IMO.
 

CaterpillarSick

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I fear the same. And that would be true of Buttigieg also, albeit for different reasons.

I'd vastly prefer either of them to Trump, don't get me wrong. Neither seems electable, though. In fact, I don't like the electability of any of the Democratic contenders at the moment. It's a pretty weak field right now, IMO.
I’m not so sure about that. Trump is really unpopular for a president with a strong economy. I don’t know how well either would do in the general if they won the nomination. Sanders very likely could have beaten Trump had he been the nominee. Buttigieg doesn’t have half of the baggage Trump has, nor does he have a national voting record or governorship to be attacked on.
 

CLPP

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We haven't even approached that bridge to cross - just a fraction of the nomination process.

AND THEN when we get over that bridge who is going to be number 2 to anchor the ticket to success ?
Bernie is old if he wins I want him to last 4 years and if not consider what direction we go in the meantime.
Will his programs be sustainable and past muster.
At this point the Democrats have serious issues - avoid shooting each other in their vulnerable feet to have a platform to stand on.

AND THEN there is the Bloomberg factor which is only beginning to come into play - - -
Everyone of these Democrats want to oust remove junk deport and a host of words printable and not to END the Trump regime !
The question to be answered is --- WHO WILL GET THE JOB DONE and leave the scattered remains enough to bring together again !
Consider that Trump money brought this to head - perhaps money is what is going to be needed to solve it !
That may not be solution but you fight FIRE with FIRE - dollar for dollar.

As such with the present quid pro quo the Constitution is indeed in jeopardy abandoned by the right wing Republicans taking
false Oaths in support of their cushy allegiant jobs to the soon to be if not stopped the dictator Trump.
Our founding fathers missed the article of what to do when Congress (the Senate) should be impeached as well !


On the recent news front - there is a motion to make the District of Columbia a 51st state - interesting to see how that develops !
Or trump can get his senators to vote to take over DC, build a wall around it ( don’t fret, Mexico will pay for it), rename TheWhite House trump castle and have his dictator digs up on Capitol Hill.
 
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CaterpillarSick

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Or trump can get his senators to vote to take over DC, build a wall around it ( don’t fret, Mexico will pay for it), rename TheWhite House trump castle and have his dictator digs up on Capitol Hill.
Can we please be civil and have a constructive argument.
 

CLPP

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I realize the polls haven’t been entirely 100% on lately as far as the primaries are concerned, but Quinnipiac has Bernie beating Trump 51-43%.


As far as staying home on Election Day, that really won’t fly this time - he needs to be removed from the White House, he is quite literally testing facism. I really hope my fellow Berners don’t let their disappointment in losing the primaries (if he doesn’t win) stop them from voting this time around.
IF Bernie doesn’t win the Democratic nomination, rest assured he WILL support the chosen candidate and continue to work to get them elected. Like most of us, Sanders recognizes that 45 has no respect for American democracy and must be deposed.
 

CLPP

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Can we please be civil and have a constructive argument.
IMO, I am being civil. What day passes that 45 doesn’t do something that makes most of us think “WTF?”. I think it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that 45 fancies himself a dictator and believes that the oval office should have a throne.
 

CaterpillarSick

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IMO, I am being civil. What day passes that 45 doesn’t do something that makes most of us think “WTF?”. I think it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that 45 fancies himself a dictator and believes that the oval office should have a throne.
Your comments are not civil; they have been incredibly inflammatory. I don’t support the Trump administration in the slightest, but there is still no need to refer to a democratically elected President as a dictator.
 

CutePrincess

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under free market capitalism everyone has the same shot to make something of themselves, under socialism why would you bother everything is free.
1. no, it is possible yes, but lets compare trump who was born into wealth. With all his screw ups, he still did not suffer true backlash from poor decision making and still rich in the end, exploiting bankruptcy laws and other things. While kinda smart on his part, its not hard to take advantage of and anyone born to what he was born into would have at least what he got. Anyone smarter would took it a LOT FURTHER then he did.

2. Yes that is the problem with complete socialism, but that is the thing, complete capitalism also has a ton of flaws and why the US is not pure capitalist state. You need find the right balance.
 
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Icewolf

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Yes that is the problem with complete socialism, but that is the thing, complete caplisim also has a ton of flaws and why the US is not pure capitalist state. You need find the right balance.
Balance is the key to everything, or just about. The issue comes mainly from fear mongering that makes it sound like anyone who is not with you, wants to tip that balance heavily into their favor. Some people have taken into libertarian thinking, at least the american definition which seems to be fiscally conservative, socially liberal, I'd like to consider myself among them but maybe I am not quite there yet, or at least have issues coming across like I am.

If we are ever going to find that balance, we need to start looking at the side opposite us as people with their own views, interests, beliefs, etc. instead of someone who needs to be put down just for having a different opinion.
 

CutePrincess

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Balance is the key to everything, or just about. The issue comes mainly from fear mongering that makes it sound like anyone who is not with you, wants to tip that balance heavily into their favor. Some people have taken into libertarian thinking, at least the american definition which seems to be fiscally conservative, socially liberal, I'd like to consider myself among them but maybe I am not quite there yet, or at least have issues coming across like I am.

If we are ever going to find that balance, we need to start looking at the side opposite us as people with their own views, interests, beliefs, etc. instead of someone who needs to be put down just for having a different opinion.
this is exactly why trump makes it worse
 

CLPP

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Your comments are not civil; they have been incredibly inflammatory. I don’t support the Trump administration in the slightest, but there is still no need to refer to a democratically elected President as a dictator.
There is if he acts like one. Wake up! PLEASE wake up.
 

Icewolf

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its an over exaggeration but sometimes I wonder and feel if he is a wannabe tyrant =/
He might be, in which case we really need to look and see if such is the case, and if it is, get him out of power, but he might not be, at least to the point some are making him out to be. We have to figure out, with help from each other and our own research, what is the truth/fact, what is exaggeration, what is a half-truth and what is an out and out lie. By that token, we also need to listen to each other without applying labels/at least give each other the benefit of a doubt as finding the right words, tone, etc is hard for even the smartest of us.
 
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