What makes a person a "bad" person?

BabyTyrant

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In most societies we have rules and laws in place, and the majority of the population seems to be rule abiding citizens

But then you have people that will break laws for whatever reason; or find a way to abuse a policy set in place so they arent "technically" doing anything wrong because its allowed;

But because they are being Dishonest what they are doing is essentially breaking a law in a "sneaky" way

For example you have people on eBay that will try their best to come up with complaints to abuse EBays customer support policies and refund guarantee; those policies are in place to protect buyers from bad sellers

Not so someone can lie to try to get out of actually paying for something (by saying it never arrived, it arrived broke, it is a fake, etc)

I have even seen people posting how they had tried to rent a game out of Redbox, only to get a printed piece of paper in the shape of a game, with the barcode on it which apparently fools the system into thinking a game is returned

So essentially they stole a game that retails at $60+ tax, for $3 or less

Are they just bad people, or do you think someone taught them that these things are okay?

I know they say children start off Innocent, so clearly something has to have happened at a later date to turn them into "bad" people.

I mean if someone stole food, I can kinda understand that as you gotta eat to survive

Sure its stealing, but the motive isnt as bad as greed
 

RubberJin

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Regardless of law, it's pretty obvious when you're being a dick.

I think a lot of people just have no thought beyond themselves, or they think some magical "insurance" will cover their actions and there's no real victim - sometimes it's because their lives are so bad they see nothing wrong with taking from the rest of society like that, or they're just desperate and will do anything.

Most of us break laws every day but we're not bad people, some people never break a law in their lives but are utterly terrible people.
 

BabyTyrant

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Regardless of law, it's pretty obvious when you're being a dick.

I think a lot of people just have no thought beyond themselves, or they think some magical "insurance" will cover their actions and there's no real victim - sometimes it's because their lives are so bad they see nothing wrong with taking from the rest of society like that, or they're just desperate and will do anything.

Most of us break laws every day but we're not bad people, some people never break a law in their lives but are utterly terrible people.
I'm pretty sure large corporations have insurance to cover theft, but of course you can't expect the average person selling something on eBay to actually have anything like that as most of them aren't selling things to actually make profits

It's more along the line of "I have something at home I am not using and I could use the money, so I'm gonna list some stuff on eBay to get some extra money I need"

Stealing from a corporation I could tolerate a lot better than stealing from people that aren't out to make profits in the first place

But I think you are right

I think most of them just dont care about anybody but themselves
 
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Topex

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A bad person is someone who consciously performs immoral actions (not necessarily illegal, as something like J-walking is illegal, but not immoral)
 

DanielW

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People shopping at auction sites are looking the best deal they can get. Often times so they can re-sell things they buy at a better price. Policies there favor the buyer and a lot of less than scrupulous people take advantage of that. I myself have been burned both as a buyer and a seller, so I tend to stay away from them now and sell independently, and buy from conventional commercial sites.

Its just not worth the headaches to try and save or make a few more dollars.
 

BabyTyrant

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People shopping at auction sites are looking the best deal they can get. Often times so they can re-sell things they buy at a better price. Policies there favor the buyer and a lot of less than scrupulous people take advantage of that. I myself have been burned both as a buyer and a seller, so I tend to stay away from them now and sell independently, and buy from conventional commercial sites.

Its just not worth the headaches to try and save or make a few more dollars.
Well in my experience I have only had to deal with bad buyers maybe 2 or 3% of the time, and a bad seller only once (but because they sold an unusable iPhone that was also damaged we were able to get our full money back, plus credit at the Apple Store)

So for me it is definitely worth it because most of what I am buying is Video Games once they have been on the market for several months and I can get a good deal (sometimes 50% off or less) on a pre-owned copy compared to the $65 brand new price most games come out at.
 

BirdCat

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It would be simple to say that being selfish or lacking altruism would make a person bad. But putting yourself and your own gain before others is human nature, proven mathematically, so if that makes a person a bad person then that means everybody would be a "bad person", meaning nobody would be. You can put yourself first without being an a** about it and you won't be considered a bad person.
It would be simple to say that being dishonest would make you a bad person. Certainly when a person is dishonest for a bad reason they may be considered a bad person, but a person can also be dishonest for a noble reason and often they are considered a good person for it or told they are doing the right thing. Things get murky and grey when you have dishonesty with a good outcome but for the wrong reasons or a bad outcome for the right reasons.
Even committing criminal acts doesn't necessarily make somebody a bad person. Assault is a crime, but committing assault in defense of another person's honor is often celebrated.
Good and bad. Right and wrong. It is all one big grey area. Society determines common standards what is right and wrong, but that is different depending upon which society you're talking about. Even children aren't really "innocent", they just don't understand yet. It takes time and reinforcement to teach children what their society's concepts of right and wrong are. That's why when children do something considered bad they get punished and when they do something considered good they are supposed to be rewarded. Before children are taught right and wrong they tend to do whatever they want. If children aren't taught properly then they often continue to do what ever they want with no regard for what is socially acceptable. In the worst case scenario, the children purposefully get taught things that go against the socially accepted concepts of right and wrong and end up as "bad people" doing bad things because it has been reinforced in them that those "wrong things" are "right things". Of course, there are exceptions to this like mental illness and genetics needs to be taken into consideration, but for the relatively normal child roughly half of what determines whether they turn out "good" or "bad" is how they are raised.
In regards to ebay, most of my shopping is done on ebay and I do tend to open a lot of cases about items I order. I expect the listing to be accurate and the item to arrive in the condition it was listed as. If it is listed as "new" it shouldn't have any damage. If something is listed as amethyst it shouldn't just be colored glass or a colored crystal of another type. If something is "used" you shouldn't have done anything to try to "fix" or change it because that would make it "refurbished". When I buy items and open a case for a refund it is always because there's a genuine problem with the order. Unfortunately, I encounter more problems than honest sellers. Somebody I know actually managed to destroy a seller's whole business over one case because the seller was dishonest, purposefully falsifying listings to entice buyers and trying to skirt around the ebay refund policies. Destroying the business wasn't the intention, a simple refund was, but with having to get ebay itself involved it ended up being the end result. The whole time the seller was claiming they did nothing wrong and were never dishonest about anything even though the proof was right there.
Now, the question is, did he actually believe he wasn't doing anything wrong despite obviously violating policy? I think he's a bad person, others think he's a bad person, but does he think he's a bad person? Lying to draw people in and get them to buy things is an unfortunately common tactic and while customers hate it and think it is "bad" salespeople that use it don't. They don't see anything wrong with it. On the other hand, the buyers you mentioned are likely the same. You think they're bad people for gaming the system but they likely don't and people like them likely don't.
So, to answer the title question: What makes a person a "bad" person? It depends on your concept of "bad" and how well the child was taught right from wrong. It will vary depending on society and culture, so it is all a grey area.
 

BabyTyrant

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@BirdCat; I am pretty sure if you have to lie in an effort to get things for free that means you are no doubt a bad person because that is basically stealing

It just happens to be underhanded sneaky lying; that sometimes eBay allows to happen because they are so concerned with protecting the honest buyers that it allows a bad buyer to abuse a system set in place to allow both sides get a fair deal

Of course a seller is a bad seller when they cant sell things by being fair and honest; just like how I hope to get a buyer that is honest and doesn't cause trouble

But every now and then a bad buyer will show up and try their best to abuse the system to get things for free

And I have experienced all sorts and could probably write a short book on it, but what it boils down to is

1. If you are selling a "Luxury" (expensive "Name Brand" item that there are usually many fakes of floating around) expect that you may get targeted by someone claiming it is fake; just because eBay will probably not investigate the case and automatically refund the buyer

2. The more expensive of an item you are selling the more likely it is that someone will target you with a false claim to steal it; sometimes they say "defective item" or that it never arrived (even if you have tracking information saying that it did)

3. Some people seem to like to bait and switch (they have a broken item, yours works; so they buy yours and send you back theirs and get a refund) or play with something, break it; and then go for a refund

4. I have even once had a guy claim a system I had sold him didnt work; come to find out he kept it for 45 days (he probably had loads of fun for that 1.5 months) and then sent it back, initiated a refund and I had to give him it upon The System coming back to me, or eBay would have stepped in and gave it to him anyways

Oh also I had a seller bait and switch me with a PS4 pro, i paid what would have been a fair price since it was a used system, not new; then he sent me a flippin Magazine; and I still had to wait almost 2 weeks for a refund to be given to me

Apparently they allow straight out Ripoff Artists to scam people and allow them almost 2 weeks to defend themselves
 
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Drifter

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What makes a person a "bad" person? Opinion.

Whether or not a person is "bad" for lying depends on whether or not you can personally justify the lying. If a liar says things people like to hear they will tend to see the lying in neutral terms by saying it's harmless, or, especially in politics, by saying everybody does it.

It just happens to be underhanded sneaky lying;
No doubt some of the people you dealt with intentionally tried to defraud you. But imagine a fantasy situation where you could meet with every individual you've accused of fraud in front of an impartial judge. The judge would hear both sides and issue a verdict in every case. You would probably lose some of those cases, in a legal sense, for lack of evidence. But, in the cases you lost, you would have heard the defendant's side of the story. You may think the defendants were lying to the judge, but the judge found the defendants' testimony plausible, even if it wasn't verifiable. The judge may have looked at your testimony the same way: plausible but unverifiable in all the details. Cases like this, where you weren't able to prove your accusations, would have been dismissed, but the legal angle is not the point. The thing is: you really don't know if all those people were trying to rip you off. You can believe that if you want to, but some of those instances were probably due to misunderstanding or unusual circumstances.

You've been playing the eBay game long enough to know there is a risk factor and that a percentage of the transactions will go bad. You also have a good idea of what your limits are in recovering damages. But this assumption of an evil motive behind all bad transactions seems to be making you miserable. In many cases you really don't know. Do what you can, but then chalk up your losses to business expenses and move on.
 

Sapphyre

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What makes a person a "bad" person? Opinion.
I think this is the gist of it. Statistically, about 1% of the human population is diagnosable as sociopathic; this means they literally lack the capacity for compassion and see it as a weakness / stupidity in others. The "empathy circuit" just isn't operational in their brain. Are they bad, or merely diseased? It seems a matter of perspective…

For me, the important thing is to try to recognize that a "bad" person, however defined, has the capacity to become someone better. ^.^
 
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BabyTyrant

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What makes a person a "bad" person? Opinion.

Whether or not a person is "bad" for lying depends on whether or not you can personally justify the lying. If a liar says things people like to hear they will tend to see the lying in neutral terms by saying it's harmless, or, especially in politics, by saying everybody does it.


No doubt some of the people you dealt with intentionally tried to defraud you. But imagine a fantasy situation where you could meet with every individual you've accused of fraud in front of an impartial judge. The judge would hear both sides and issue a verdict in every case. You would probably lose some of those cases, in a legal sense, for lack of evidence. But, in the cases you lost, you would have heard the defendant's side of the story. You may think the defendants were lying to the judge, but the judge found the defendants' testimony plausible, even if it wasn't verifiable. The judge may have looked at your testimony the same way: plausible but unverifiable in all the details. Cases like this, where you weren't able to prove your accusations, would have been dismissed, but the legal angle is not the point. The thing is: you really don't know if all those people were trying to rip you off. You can believe that if you want to, but some of those instances were probably due to misunderstanding or unusual circumstances.

You've been playing the eBay game long enough to know there is a risk factor and that a percentage of the transactions will go bad. You also have a good idea of what your limits are in recovering damages. But this assumption of an evil motive behind all bad transactions seems to be making you miserable. In many cases you really don't know. Do what you can, but then chalk up your losses to business expenses and move on.
Well theres only one case when I can genuinely say the guy maybe didn't 100% know what he was ordering, or maybe someone stole his mail

That is not on me though, I had a tracking number saying it arrived and I listed it as what it was

Where the confusion came in is maybe the guy wasnt paying attention to realize he had bought the 3DS version of the game;

but then it wouldn't make sense to say it didn't arrive; it would have been a case of receiving the wrong item; in which case I would have won anyways because I had it listed as what it was.

And it is more than a simple annoyance when people try to abuse eBay to steal your stuff.

Every other case I can genuinely say the buyer knew what they were doing and abused the system to force a return because

1. they changed their mind

2. switched out my stuff for something broken, or played with my stuff and broke it and then forced a refund to occur; saying it arrived broke

3. Wanted to play a PS3 without having to pay for it for 1.5 months (if it didn't work, why keep it for 45 days? Why not immediately ship it back and ask for a refund and then spend a little more on a brand new system at the store?)

4. Outright wanted to steal my stuff; like a guy that had bought a big Wii Bundle from me (probably would have been $250 of stuff if I sold everything separately, but he sniped it for like $125) , claimed it didn't arrive, but he wasnt actually at home to check it out

What sense does that last one make?

How is any of this anything less than abusing the system to get your desired outcome; instead of getting what you paid for and moving on?

You broke something you just bought? That should be on you

You changed your mind? That should be on you

You wanna say something is fake? You should have to be able to prove it (how convenient would that be to say "item is fake" and be given a refund and be able to keep it? Everyone could theoretically do the same thing with anything on eBay)

Item hasn't arrived, yet you aren't home to check? Automatic case dismissal

And there is no way in hell they should allow people 45 days to play with your stuff and still claim its defective and that they want a refund, if it were up to me the customer would have 1 full week and that's it.

Idk about you, but if I buy something and it doesn't work like it should, i am getting a refund or replacement ASAP

if it's a store i would pack it up, grab my receipt and head out, just like that

If its online, I would have it shipped within a few days and it would arrive to the seller within a week probably

Clearly if 97-98% are happy, isnt it more likely the other 2-3% is trying to abuse the system in some way?

Biggest thing I have learned in all this

Never do "Free Shipping"

Shipping costs you money and if you dont do a separate charge for it, the buyer can get 100% of their money back, and you are out item cost, and shipping cost

Lost $50 on an item one time, if I charged $20 for shipping that would have been $20 less the customer could have recovered

Everyone wants a 100% refund and doesn't care what it costs to ship an item

I think this is the gist of it. Statistically, about 1% of the human population is diagnosable as sociopathic; this means they literally lack the capacity for compassion and see it as a weakness / stupidity in others. The "empathy circuit" just isn't operational in their brain. Are they bad, or merely diseased? It seems a matter of perspective…

For me, the important thing is to try to recognize that a "bad" person, however defined, has the capacity to become someone better. ^.^
Well put another way I would say you are a good person if you are fair to other people

You are a bad person if you are unfair to people

What is fair? To be nice to someone without being overly nice

In selling things, a fair seller will not misrepresent what they have and a fair buyer will accept it if it matches what is promised and move on

An Unfair/Bad person would lie, and cheat in order to steal something from fair seller that is trying to sell something for at/under market price

I mean can anybody honestly say it is fair to make up lies because the buyer doesn't want to actually pay for something, or they want to swap out something they broke for a brand new item, or because they want a partial refund because something costs more than what they can afford?

None of that is on the seller, and if you cant afford something; you shouldnt be buying it

You should suffer the consequences for your actions, not a fair seller.

I guarantee all these Cyber Thieves are too scared to actually try stealing things in real life because they dont wanna go to jail (or risk getting shot or assaulted Hospitalized); that's why they head to eBay to try to abuse a Buyer Protection Program so that they can get away with it and not have to face legal issues, or be in medical danger

They are cowards that have to hide behind a computer screen
 
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trysexiea

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In most societies we have rules and laws in place, and the majority of the population seems to be rule abiding citizens

But then you have people that will break laws for whatever reason; or find a way to abuse a policy set in place so they arent "technically" doing anything wrong because its allowed;

But because they are being Dishonest what they are doing is essentially breaking a law in a "sneaky" way

For example you have people on eBay that will try their best to come up with complaints to abuse EBays customer support policies and refund guarantee; those policies are in place to protect buyers from bad sellers

Not so someone can lie to try to get out of actually paying for something (by saying it never arrived, it arrived broke, it is a fake, etc)

I have even seen people posting how they had tried to rent a game out of Redbox, only to get a printed piece of paper in the shape of a game, with the barcode on it which apparently fools the system into thinking a game is returned

So essentially they stole a game that retails at $60+ tax, for $3 or less

Are they just bad people, or do you think someone taught them that these things are okay?

I know they say children start off Innocent, so clearly something has to have happened at a later date to turn them into "bad" people.

I mean if someone stole food, I can kinda understand that as you gotta eat to survive

Sure its stealing, but the motive isnt as bad as greed
It's a good question but don't have the answer, because all person have there own view of what is "BAD" and What is "Good".
 

BirdCat

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Well theres only one case when I can genuinely say the guy maybe didn't 100% know what he was ordering, or maybe someone stole his mail

That is not on me though, I had a tracking number saying it arrived and I listed it as what it was

Where the confusion came in is maybe the guy wasnt paying attention to realize he had bought the 3DS version of the game;

but then it wouldn't make sense to say it didn't arrive; it would have been a case of receiving the wrong item; in which case I would have won anyways because I had it listed as what it was.

And it is more than a simple annoyance when people try to abuse eBay to steal your stuff.

Every other case I can genuinely say the buyer knew what they were doing and abused the system to force a return because

1. they changed their mind

2. switched out my stuff for something broken, or played with my stuff and broke it and then forced a refund to occur; saying it arrived broke

3. Wanted to play a PS3 without having to pay for it for 1.5 months (if it didn't work, why keep it for 45 days? Why not immediately ship it back and ask for a refund and then spend a little more on a brand new system at the store?)

4. Outright wanted to steal my stuff; like a guy that had bought a big Wii Bundle from me (probably would have been $250 of stuff if I sold everything separately, but he sniped it for like $125) , claimed it didn't arrive, but he wasnt actually at home to check it out

What sense does that last one make?

How is any of this anything less than abusing the system to get your desired outcome; instead of getting what you paid for and moving on?

You broke something you just bought? That should be on you

You changed your mind? That should be on you

You wanna say something is fake? You should have to be able to prove it (how convenient would that be to say "item is fake" and be given a refund and be able to keep it? Everyone could theoretically do the same thing with anything on eBay)

Item hasn't arrived, yet you aren't home to check? Automatic case dismissal

And there is no way in hell they should allow people 45 days to play with your stuff and still claim its defective and that they want a refund, if it were up to me the customer would have 1 full week and that's it.

Idk about you, but if I buy something and it doesn't work like it should, i am getting a refund or replacement ASAP

if it's a store i would pack it up, grab my receipt and head out, just like that

If its online, I would have it shipped within a few days and it would arrive to the seller within a week probably

Clearly if 97-98% are happy, isnt it more likely the other 2-3% is trying to abuse the system in some way?

Biggest thing I have learned in all this

Never do "Free Shipping"

Shipping costs you money and if you dont do a separate charge for it, the buyer can get 100% of their money back, and you are out item cost, and shipping cost

Lost $50 on an item one time, if I charged $20 for shipping that would have been $20 less the customer could have recovered

Everyone wants a 100% refund and doesn't care what it costs to ship an item
Sometimes it takes time to realize if something isn't working how it should. If a part is damaged there can be anywhere from days to months where the damage isn't known about and continues to worsen until it is finally discovered when the thing completely breaks down. Like hardware problems, there are plenty of software problems that may not be noticed within a 1 week window as they just aren't bad enough to really see yet. In those cases it is hardly the buyer's fault the item broke 45 days into playing with it. Sure, some people may be trying to lie, but it shouldn't be automatically assumed that they all are.
There is a chance that your item did arrive broken, even if it was in perfect condition when you initially sent it out. With all the moving around and jostling that comes with shipping delicate items like electronics are more likely to get damaged in shipping. If that happens it's not the buyer's fault and it's not really the post's fault either. It would be the seller's fault for not providing enough protection for the item knowing it was going to be traveling a long distance and the buyer would be fully entitled to a refund. Of course, as with the other thing, there are going to be liars out there but it shouldn't be automatically assumed that they are all or even mostly liars.
Speaking of shipping- "porch pirates" are a real problem. When things get shipped to your house the post likes to leave it on your porch and mark it delivered without ever seeing you unless there's a specific "have to get the signature" type deal with the package. Even then some post people don't bother with it or don't bother following the delivery instructions people request with their package. I myself have had plenty of bad experience with negligent post people. Unfortunately, when a package is left sitting on the doorstep there's a risk it will be stolen and you won't even know it was delivered until you see it labeled "delivered" in the tracking. Stolen packages aren't the buyer's fault. People can't be home or waiting at their door 24/7. It's not necessarily the seller's fault either, but at the end of the day the buyer didn't get what they paid for so they want their money back. Shipping to the post office has it's problems too. There's only so much space in po boxes and anything that doesn't fit gets held in back with a card placed in the box telling the person to pick up the package in the office. The office only holds the package for a certain amount of time and if the open hours are when you're working there's a good chance you'll miss that window.
If 97-98% are happy while 2-3% aren't, it is more likely that something went wrong along the way than them trying to abuse the system. Accidents happen, sh*t happens, and it happens often. Now, if that unhappy 2-3% of your buyers in the same person 97-98% of the time then it's more likely that they're trying to abuse the system.
Not offering free shipping doesn't stop buyers from getting a full refund either. At least on ebay, when you open a dispute and put in a refund amount the maximum amount you can request is the combined item and shipping cost. If you set your item price at $20 and shipping cost at $20 the buyer can request the full $40 they paid back, not just the $20 item cost. Buyers can also request in their dispute to not have to return the bad item. When I get defective items I always request not having to return it even though it is completely useless. It's not in order to keep the item; I make the request purely because I don't see the sense in me having to spend more money on a defective item I can't use and have already wasted too much time and money on as is.

Well put another way I would say you are a good person if you are fair to other people

You are a bad person if you are unfair to people

What is fair? To be nice to someone without being overly nice

In selling things, a fair seller will not misrepresent what they have and a fair buyer will accept it if it matches what is promised and move on

An Unfair/Bad person would lie, and cheat in order to steal something from fair seller that is trying to sell something for at/under market price

I mean can anybody honestly say it is fair to make up lies because the buyer doesn't want to actually pay for something, or they want to swap out something they broke for a brand new item, or because they want a partial refund because something costs more than what they can afford?

None of that is on the seller, and if you cant afford something; you shouldnt be buying it

You should suffer the consequences for your actions, not a fair seller.

I guarantee all these Cyber Thieves are too scared to actually try stealing things in real life because they dont wanna go to jail (or risk getting shot or assaulted Hospitalized); that's why they head to eBay to try to abuse a Buyer Protection Program so that they can get away with it and not have to face legal issues, or be in medical danger

They are cowards that have to hide behind a computer screen
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but life isn't fair.
There's a lot of unfairness dealing with people and what one person may consider "fair" another may not. You think it's fair to try to con everybody trying to get a refund, even honest buyers, out of half what they paid for an item by charging it as shipping. I don't find that fair at all. The real topic here doesn't seem to be about good or bad, right or wrong, but more of a complaint about how you feel the world is unfair because you lost money on an ebay sale. There's a double standard in this topic where the sole focus and blame is placed on the buyers and the buyer protection program without acknowledging that there are just as many bad sellers as there are bad buyers and ebay has plenty of policies that sellers can abuse just as easily.
 
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BabyTyrant

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When I said I lost $50, it wasnt $50 all in shipping, it was $30 invested on an item and $20 in shipping; the full sale price was $100 on what would have been a $150 Arcade Style Controller "Fight Stick" if I were a retail shop (I know you cant always get retail prices).

Pretty convenient that people can break things because they play rough and say it arrived broken without any proof for a full refund, and at least if I charged $20 for shipping I could have fought to keep the $20 and the buyer would have still got an 80% refund.

As for the PS3, nothing was wrong with it besides that apparently the HDMI feature didn't work

It was still a functional system and it was even PS2 Backwards compatible (something most PS3s dont have) ; but of course I had to get the guy that had to have HDMI without wanting to spend another $125 on a new system (this was a while ago) ; but that didn't stop him from playing it for 1.5 months

If it was really a dealbreaker he should have reboxed it, shipped it, and then had a refund probably within a week.

You can hardly call a PS3 broke because HDMI doesn't work when they included and were set to old AV Cables by default and if he really couldn't use it he shouldn't have kept it that long; it just doesn't make sense unless he wanted to play it for 1.5 months without actually paying for it (as Ultimately he got a 100% refund, 50% later than any store would have had to give it to him).

And when you know you have something valuable coming you would probably request it to be held at the post office and retrieve it ASAP, ask for the seller to ask for Signature required; or ask for no delivery to be left unattended

At the very least these things minimize risk; if not outright being able to make the USPS liable for failing on their end

There is a reason why stores charge higher prices; part of having brand new things usually includes a warranty and the extra cost probably allows a store to put insurance on expensive sales just in case something happens they can collect insurance instead of just having to pay the customer out of pocket

Customer is not entitled to the same treatment buying used things at a discount online and I think most customers realize they have responsibilities on their end too

If you buy an item that is over 1 year old from when it was opened and registered; chances are the manufacturers warranty is gone, so if you buy used YOU take the risk that it might stop working only months later; that isnt on a seller whom sold a working item but cant guarantee it will always work

Imagine the added cost if they expected a seller to buy insurance just to appease customers months or even years after a sale happens and an item breaks; let's say it adds 20% expense to an item and let's say it's a $1000 TV brand new; buyer goes for a 1 year old gently used TV for $500, seller has to pay $100 extra just on the off chance that the TV Stops working 2 months later

Say they sell 100 TVs, that would be an extra $10,000 just because a TV may break 2 months later

Is that really fair to the seller because an item MAY break? Hell no it ain't

That's the risk the customer takes; used electronics do not have a forever guarantee and one should not be given because someone feels it is fair they be given such a guarantee

The seller cant do everything, the delivery carrier cant do everything, and neither can the buyer

They all have parts to play

And sorry but it is far too much easier for a buyer to abuse the system; they have almost all the power and as soon as a claim is open money can be put on hold until a decision is made, which can take weeks to process, especially if they fight the whole way claiming their innocence.

And no there are not an equal amount of bad sellers; but the potential headache from running into one is why I no longer take any risk with low feedback sellers

They can make a clear attempt to defraud multiple customers and still you have to wait weeks for eBay to see how the seller is gonna defend themselves

Fact is you could not mix up an order between a Magazine that probably weights 4 ounces and a PS4 Pro that probably weighs 3-4 LBS; and they dont fit in the same size packaging

So why make an established Seller/Buyer wait weeks anyways?
 
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Lilah

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I guess I would define a "bad" person as someone whose conscious actions and decisions consistently cause harm to others.
On a more personal note though, I have a problem calling an average person bad. We all do bad things on occasion... however I do believe there is a big difference between the occasional bad choice and constantly making bad choices.
 

BirdCat

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When I said I lost $50, it wasnt $50 all in shipping, it was $30 invested on an item and $20 in shipping; the full sale price was $100 on what would have been a $150 Arcade Style Controller "Fight Stick" if I were a retail shop (I know you cant always get retail prices).

Pretty convenient that people can break things because they play rough and say it arrived broken without any proof for a full refund, and at least if I charged $20 for shipping I could have fought to keep the $20 and the buyer would have still got an 80% refund.

As for the PS3, nothing was wrong with it besides that apparently the HDMI feature didn't work

It was still a functional system and it was even PS2 Backwards compatible (something most PS3s dont have) ; but of course I had to get the guy that had to have HDMI without wanting to spend another $125 on a new system (this was a while ago) ; but that didn't stop him from playing it for 1.5 months

If it was really a dealbreaker he should have reboxed it, shipped it, and then had a refund probably within a week.

You can hardly call a PS3 broke because HDMI doesn't work when they included and were set to old AV Cables by default and if he really couldn't use it he shouldn't have kept it that long; it just doesn't make sense unless he wanted to play it for 1.5 months without actually paying for it (as Ultimately he got a 100% refund, 50% later than any store would have had to give it to him).

And when you know you have something valuable coming you would probably request it to be held at the post office and retrieve it ASAP, ask for the seller to ask for Signature required; or ask for no delivery to be left unattended

At the very least these things minimize risk; if not outright being able to make the USPS liable for failing on their end

There is a reason why stores charge higher prices; part of having brand new things usually includes a warranty and the extra cost probably allows a store to put insurance on expensive sales just in case something happens they can collect insurance instead of just having to pay the customer out of pocket

Customer is not entitled to the same treatment buying used things at a discount online and I think most customers realize they have responsibilities on their end too

If you buy an item that is over 1 year old from when it was opened and registered; chances are the manufacturers warranty is gone, so if you buy used YOU take the risk that it might stop working only months later; that isnt on a seller whom sold a working item but cant guarantee it will always work

Imagine the added cost if they expected a seller to buy insurance just to appease customers months or even years after a sale happens and an item breaks; let's say it adds 20% expense to an item and let's say it's a $1000 TV brand new; buyer goes for a 1 year old gently used TV for $500, seller has to pay $100 extra just on the off chance that the TV Stops working 2 months later

Say they sell 100 TVs, that would be an extra $10,000 just because a TV may break 2 months later

Is that really fair to the seller because an item MAY break? Hell no it ain't

That's the risk the customer takes; used electronics do not have a forever guarantee and one should not be given because someone feels it is fair they be given such a guarantee

The seller cant do everything, the delivery carrier cant do everything, and neither can the buyer

They all have parts to play

And sorry but it is far too much easier for a buyer to abuse the system; they have almost all the power and as soon as a claim is open money can be put on hold until a decision is made, which can take weeks to process, especially if they fight the whole way claiming their innocence.

And no there are not an equal amount of bad sellers; but the potential headache from running into one is why I no longer take any risk with low feedback sellers

They can make a clear attempt to defraud multiple customers and still you have to wait weeks for eBay to see how the seller is gonna defend themselves

Fact is you could not mix up an order between a Magazine that probably weights 4 ounces and a PS4 Pro that probably weighs 3-4 LBS; and they dont fit in the same size packaging

So why make an established Seller/Buyer wait weeks anyways?
Nothing I say seems to get through or be read as written and this topic doesn't seem to have much to do with the title. You completely missed what I was saying about how items may arrive broken in a way that's not obvious and thus not be known about until months after the buyer started using it when the item ends up dying. In that case the seller should refund because they sold a broken item, even if they weren't aware it was broken. It should have been checked out before hand or they should not have labeled it as "used" which indicates "The item may have some signs of cosmetic wear, but is fully operational and functions as intended." if they didn't know for sure. Once the damage is inspected after the fact they'll find the cause and how long its been an issue. ASAP isn't always an option, especially if held at the post office where they are only open for a set number of hours. A person can't just take off work to go get a package or wait at home to sign for one. And convincing a seller to ask that signature be required/package not be left unattended hinges on the seller actually seeing your message in time and from my own experience and the experience of many other buyers, there are a large amount of sellers that take ages to get to your messages if they do at all.
For as many stories as you find about sellers complaining of bad buyers abusing the system you'll find stories about buyers complaining of bad sellers abusing the system. And no, from my own experiences you are certainly right in that there are not an equal amount of bad sellers; there are more of them. In all my experience selling and buying on ebay, in the experience of the members of my chat group selling and buying, we've encountered far more bad sellers than bad buyers and roughly half of those bad sellers had good feedback ratings. Of course, that's not to say none of us have encountered buyers that want refunds. We have and when they send us their pictures of the problem we have calmly and professionally provided their refunds. I'm trying to consider the experience of everybody though, not just my friends' and my own, and that appears to put sellers and buyers roughly even. Disputes with ebay involved take about 6 days, the first three to allow the seller to respond and try to offer a solution of their own, the second three for ebay to decided should an agreement not be reached. Now, if the buyer is filing their dispute through returns it can take more than week to get settled because they give the seller ample time to respond, accept or refuse. Both seller and buyer have to make their case in a dispute and the evidence given is used to determine the outcome. Dishonest sellers even have plenty of advantage is cases. I've read more than fifteen pleas for help on ebay from unfortunate buyers that tried to get refunds for defective item with inaccurate listings where they had plenty of proof and yet the seller managed to convince ebay to close the case and I've had to deal with the crying aftermath of a friend that had it happen to them when they bought a ps3, which arrived broken. I could provide you with evidence and logic all day, but I have a feeling that that won't do anything to change your mind about the fact that there are about as many bad sellers as there are bad buyers. I had hopes from the title this would be a philosophical topic but you seem set on simply complaining about buyers on ebay instead of discussing the deep intricacies of morality. I need to sleep eventually, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
 

AddyShadows

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lying is bad, drugs are bad, mkayyyyy. (Sorry I had to) But no seriously, doing something bad doesn't mean you are bad, it depends on the motives, plus what the actual 'bad thing' was. For example if you J-walk, like people above have said, it's not really you trying to be malicious, but if you were to for example, kidnap someone, that's different. That's bad and you should feel bad. I also destinguish between someone doing something bad like J-walking for convenience, and J-walking to be a dick, if there's no cars, J-walking imo is fine, but if there's a line of cars and you're walking in front of them just because you can, you're consciously being a dick. (Unless of emergency) Now, the more 'bad' the bad thing is however, the less you can justify it, again, Kidnapping someone is bad, stealing from redbox, less bad than kidnapping, still bad though, but eh on the redbox thing? That's just someone being a dick imo.

It really depends on the circumstance and what the person does to determine if they're bad, if they just did something bad but are good, or if they had no idea what they were doing was bad to begin with so on and so forth.
 

BabyTyrant

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1. If a seller completes a sale, item gets delivered, buyer plugs it in and it works; that means the seller did their part

2. If an item works when sold and works upon delivery and you have no indication that it might fail in the near future you cant really say the seller has to give a refund months later

2.5 if an item shows signs of age in use; that could be an indication it may fail in the near future; barring that, most electronics do not have a built in feature that tells you when it is close to dying for good (as opposed to a battery Dying, which you can recharge or replace) so how are you gonna place blame on the seller

3. It sucks when something like that happens; but it is the risk you take buying things that are 1+ years old and out of warranty from a place that is not making profit; only recovering part of what the item costs brand new.

4. Yes I realize people have lives, but most people have a work schedule and can do things they need to do AROUND the work schedule

If you work afternoons you go to the post office before work, if you work early and get out early enough you go to the post office after work

Barring being too busy Monday Through Friday you can go on a Saturday; furthermore you can package an item to mail out whenever and get it mailed some time that same week

5. HDMI is only one feature of a PS3, it's like when one button doesn't work on a car, but it still runs and drives and take you from point A to point B

6. You can communicate with a seller BEFORE an item ends and request them to do certain things for you if you win; if those things take extra money you can pay extra money when you win an item to cover those charges.

Morally speaking it may be harder to label someone as "Good" or "Bad" ; but in a sale it is clear who is being honest and who is dishonest and what their intents are

Clearly you are too willing to give someone the Benefit of the Doubt and cover refunds that you shouldnt be required to pay

and I would hate to sell to you and be asked for a refund 6 months after you buy a used system to say that it died and you feel you deserve a refund

That is why it may be worth it to spend a little more

That way you have an easy way to get a refund if it breaks soon, a warranty in case it dies 11 months later, and you have a good chance that that brand new item (whatever it is) works several years later
 
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Drifter

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1. If a seller completes a sale, item gets delivered, buyer plugs it in and it works; that means the seller did their part
Not necessarily.
2. If an item works when sold and works upon delivery and you have no indication that it might fail in the near future you cant really say the seller has to give a refund months later
Buyer and seller should both be aware if there is a refund policy and, if so, abide by the policy's conditions.
3. It sucks when something like that happens; but it is the risk you take buying things that are 1+ years old and out of warranty from a place that is not making profit; only recovering part of what the item costs brand new.
Makes no difference. The refund policy still applies.
4. Yes I realize people have lives, but most people have a work schedule and can do things they need to do AROUND the work schedule

If you work afternoons you go to the post office before work, if you work early and get out early enough you go to the post office after work

Barring being too busy Monday Through Friday you can go on a Saturday; furthermore you can package an item to mail out whenever and get it mailed some time that same week
You make a lot of assertions about what people should do to accommodate you. Your dispute over how the refund policy handles missing packages is with eBay, not the customer.
5. HDMI is only one feature of a PS3, it's like when one button doesn't work on a car, but it still runs and drives and take you from point A to point B
If a feature is included with the item sold, it is assumed that it will work unless it was stated otherwise by the seller. Who's fault is it if you didn't test every feature before the sale? And it's not up to you to determine how important each feature is to the buyer.
Clearly you are too willing to give someone the Benefit of the Doubt and cover refunds that you shouldnt be required to pay
You should be aware of the requirements before you try to sell something on eBay. Selling on eBay is a de facto agreement to abide by those requirements.

Sorry if I sound too harsh. I still think you would be happier if you could get over this obsession with "bad" buyers. If your overall business experience on eBay is satisfying and profitable then continue. If not, if you are losing money or it makes you unhappy, then quit and find something more satisfying.
 

Trevor

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Philosophers have wrestled with this throughout history. I have not heard of them adding an eBay test.
 
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