What happend to morality?

PaddedStag

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I never said that the rapist doesn't have any responsibility for impregnating the victim, but it isn't the rapist who makes the choice to abort a child
I want you to print your statement out on a piece of paper.
I then want you to hold that up to a mirror, while you have another mirror behind you (so you can still read the words)

Then I hope you get the hypocrisy?
 

Topex

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I want you to print your statement out on a piece of paper.
I then want you to hold that up to a mirror, while you have another mirror behind you (so you can still read the words)

Then I hope you get the hypocrisy?
My opinion is not hypocritical at all and I take offense to you saying that. This is supposed to be mature discussion but all of your posts are so riddled with attitude and various quips of talking back and it's completely unnecessary. If you're going to say I'm being hypocritical at least try and back it up
 
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Drifter

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In my belief religions should be banned. Not people's right to decide for their own lives, and an unwanted child.
Good luck trying to ban religions. A powerful, oppressive, government may be able to suppress religion for a while, but I doubt there is a government anywhere on earth powerful enough to permanently ban religion, even just within it's own borders. I think you underestimate the power of religion. If we can't ban them maybe we should learn to live with them.

And the Idea of people having the right to make the life or decision for a "child", simply because it is "unwanted", is unlikely to be morally acceptable, even among the nonreligious crowd. The average person is biologically programmed to protect the lives of children. That's why people who favor abortion on demand don't refer to the offspring as "child". Instead, they call it fetus, parasite, lump of tissue, or anything that doesn't conjure up the image of children.
 
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Drifter

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Because religions are immoral. They have killed so many lives in so many different religions.
Secular armies have killed so many lives in so many countries, but we're not going to ban armies, so what's your point? And who determines what is moral or immoral for a country?
 

Topex

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Because religions are immoral. They have killed so many lives in so many different religions.
Religions in general are not immoral. There may be some belief systems that hold immoral beliefs as well as people who radicalize different religious philosophies, but it isn't religion that kills people and neither is the concept of religion immoral; its people's decisions based off of their own radicalized beliefs to harm others
 

BabyTyrant

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The twisted thing with religion is when they say they are doing things "in the name of God" that are just not right

For example conquering many places and forcing the people to learn a new language and converting to Christianity

Plus, like I posted before there are many religious people that see anything THEY disagree with as being against God; like anything related to LGBTQ like trans people wanting to be called He/She and the religious people saying "my religion doesn't allow" ; no, that is the person - not the religion

Or not recognizing Gay Marriage and thus "my religion doesn't allow me to bake you a cake" never mind it's a Business; the reason is money, not support

If I do something for free; its because I want to help or support someone

If I charge for it, the money is the motivation; it's not because "I support the cause"
 

Drifter

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Nobody thinks it's acceptable to sentence a woman to life in prison for aborting a fetus resulting from rape; not even those who wrote that into their state laws. This law, and similar, extreme, laws, are obviously just throwaways intended to be used to create the illusion of compromise as the issue makes it's way to the Supreme Court. Call me suspicious but it appears some judges on the Supreme Court were appointed more for their political opinions than their constitutional expertise.
 

CrinklyConnor

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Secular armies have killed so many lives in so many countries, but we're not going to ban armies, so what's your point? And who determines what is moral or immoral for a country?
I wasn’t being 100% serious other than in the idea of trying to use the same logic that Topex is using.
 

Drifter

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Or not recognizing Gay Marriage and thus "my religion doesn't allow me to bake you a cake" never mind it's a Business; the reason is money, not support
That sounds more like a business issue than a religious issue. Should consumers be able to force a business to modify their products to match the personal desires of the consumer?
 

BabyTyrant

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That sounds more like a business issue than a religious issue. Should consumers be able to force a business to modify their products to match the personal desires of the consumer?
The thing is it is Discrimination to say "I am not gonna serve you because you are "Blank" "

It doesn't matter if the last word is Gay, Black , Muslim, anything that is recognized as a "Protected Class" you cant discriminate against

Refusing to serve people like that when you are a public business is nothing short of discrimination; i dont care what excuse you have

You can tell a customer to get out because they are being unreasonable or are harassing someone; but you cant Discriminate.

And it is still a Religious issue too; because you dont see as many (if any at all) Non-Religious people doing the same thing
 

Drifter

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The thing is it is Discrimination to say "I am not gonna serve you because you are "Blank" "
If I understand it correctly, the issue wasn't that the normal service was refused but that the requested modifications were unusual for the business and were refused.
 

BabyTyrant

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If I understand it correctly, the issue wasn't that the normal service was refused but that the requested modifications were unusual for the business and were refused.
Well, if that were the case than the business has the right to refuse them; but if it's a reasonable request they should have made the cake, taken the money and moved on.

But it's those kinds of issues that are always centered around someone religious (usually "Christian" ) that says "my religion doesn't allow" but at the same time it's the person because many others (true Christians) treat everyone nice it doesn't matter what gender they identify as, what their sexuality is, what their skin color is, what religion; whatever.
 

PaddedStag

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I never said that the rapist doesn't have any responsibility for impregnating the victim, but it isn't the rapist who makes the choice to abort a child
Oh, then you WERE being serious when you typed that?
I honestly thought you were being cheeky/sarcastic.

Ok then. I shall give your comment a serious reply:

The rapist is the one responsible for impregnating a VICTIM(s) of their heinous act(s).
If said VICTIM(s) don't CHOOSE to keep the racist's by-product (his semen/STD's/PTSD/Years of healing from the violent acts done to them), you somehow think the rapist isn't responsible for the abortion that is done?

Wow.

Just. Wow.

Thanks for clarifying to the rest of us, that it's the victim's fault for choosing to rid herself of an unwanted parasite.

Next time you treat your dog/cat(s) for worms, does that makes you a murderer, too?
 

Topex

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That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Plus you're basically saying the fetus is a parasite? That just...doesn't work. The abortion would oc not have happened without the rape, but it also doesn't have to happen after the rape. The person still makes the conscious choice to abort and that's their choice. Sure some of the factors they consider may have to do with the rape, but either way they're still making the choice to have the abortion, the rapist isn't making that choice
 

Topex

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The twisted thing with religion is when they say they are doing things "in the name of God" that are just not right

For example conquering many places and forcing the people to learn a new language and converting to Christianity

Plus, like I posted before there are many religious people that see anything THEY disagree with as being against God; like anything related to LGBTQ like trans people wanting to be called He/She and the religious people saying "my religion doesn't allow" ; no, that is the person - not the religion

Or not recognizing Gay Marriage and thus "my religion doesn't allow me to bake you a cake" never mind it's a Business; the reason is money, not support

If I do something for free; its because I want to help or support someone

If I charge for it, the money is the motivation; it's not because "I support the cause"
When people are saying they're doing something immoral in the name of God, what they're doing is not God's work whether they believe it to be or not and many religions acknowledge that.

Christianity does have a negative history in its conversion techniques in the past, however that's not something that is no longer endorsed by the church and for years people are still trying to right the wrongs.

I'm not sure where this thing of money is coming from or what it's really speaking to
 

PaddedStag

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That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Plus you're basically saying the fetus is a parasite? That just...doesn't work. The abortion would oc not have happened without the rape, but it also doesn't have to happen after the rape. The person still makes the conscious choice to abort and that's their choice. Sure some of the factors they consider may have to do with the rape, but either way they're still making the choice to have the abortion, the rapist isn't making that choice
It's a very simple concept Topex-

'Cause', and 'Effect'.

The Rapist caused the pregnancy, therefore is directly responsible for any 'Effect' that may result from that.

Does this clarify things, now?
 

BabyTyrant

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That analogy makes absolutely no sense. Plus you're basically saying the fetus is a parasite? That just...doesn't work. The abortion would oc not have happened without the rape, but it also doesn't have to happen after the rape. The person still makes the conscious choice to abort and that's their choice. Sure some of the factors they consider may have to do with the rape, but either way they're still making the choice to have the abortion, the rapist isn't making that choice
Like I have said though, maybe the woman would see the fetus developing inside them as a reminder of the traumatic experience they suffered

I dont claim to see that as fair; but it is something that does happen

When people are saying they're doing something immoral in the name of God, what they're doing is not God's work whether they believe it to be or not and many religions acknowledge that.

Christianity does have a negative history in its conversion techniques in the past, however that's not something that is no longer endorsed by the church and for years people are still trying to right the wrongs.

I'm not sure where this thing of money is coming from or what it's really speaking to
Where does the money part come from? Well if you are a business your primary motivation should be the money from making a transaction

To say "well my religion doesn't allow" is to bring religion into the business; which should not dominate the business

Furthermore I dont subscribe to that excuse; because that's what it is

It is all too convenient for people to use Religion as an excuse; rather than to admit that they are against certain people because they are Racist or Prejudiced against somebody or whatever

I know it is an excuse because I have been to church

Those lessons are not taught in Church (if a church teaches you those lessons, it's not a good church, that is not what God wants people to learn)
 
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tiny

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Actually, the Commandment reads- "Thou Shall Not Commit Murder"
Presumably it depends which translation you're reading. The standard KJV (King James Version) says, "Thou shalt not kill."


When people are saying they're doing something immoral in the name of God, what they're doing is not God's work whether they believe it to be or not and many religions acknowledge that.
But there's no such universally accepted thing as "God's work". Everyone who believes in God believes that their interpretation is correct and everyone else is wrong.

This is just a version of the "No true Scotsman fallacy":

Christianity does have a negative history in its conversion techniques in the past, however that's not something that is no longer endorsed by the church and for years people are still trying to right the wrongs.
Again, there's no such thing as "the church" (unless you're referring to a specific organisation like the Church of England). There are churches of people who practise ritualistic child abuse to exorcise evil spirits and please God, others who promote the spread of HIV by spreading lies about the dangers of condom use, and others that are run by wealthy scammers who tell vulnerable people to give them their money and God will reward them tenfold.
 

Topex

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It's a very simple concept Topex-

'Cause', and 'Effect'.

The Rapist caused the pregnancy, therefore is directly responsible for any 'Effect' that may result from that.

Does this clarify things, now?
It isn't cause and effect. What you're neglecting is the lack of the transitivity property. Just because the rapist caused the pregnancy (effect), does not mean they are responsible for any of the victim's following behaviour. Suppose the victim in vengeance murders someone who she believes was the rapist, but is mistaken. Is the rapist criminally responsible for that killing? No, the victim is. So why is it any different with a woman killing a fetus? It is still her choice. Whether the rapist's actions influenced that choice or not, even if it wouldn't have happened without the event of the rape, it's still the victim's decision to do so, hence their responsibility
 
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