What do you think of what's gone on in Gaza?

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Aidy

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Hamas attacked Israel. Israel attacked back. World hates Israel for attacking back.

I have a fair few Israeli friends and so I'm kind of biased towards them. Israel is pretty good at sticking to the Geneva convention and Hamas never have been. I side with Israel on this one and the civilian casualties, while caused by Israel, would be avoidable if people in Gaza moved when told.

Before any bombing, Israel informs the population in an area there is going to be an attack. They do this with loud speakers, pamphlets and everything. They wait a few hours ... sometimes days.. then they attack.

This is one thing that my mate saw when he was serving in Gaza. Before Hamas was a government and not just a terrorist group they used to do some disgusting things. The worst one he saw was they hired a 5 yr old boy to walk towards the fence. The Israeli's fired multiple warning shots but eventually, due to him possibly carrying a bomb, they had to shoot him in the leg. He wasn't carrying a bomb but was just a test to see how close kids could get to the fence before being shot.

I have no respect at all for Hamas but I feel sorry for the Gazan's who die yet aren't involved in the war.
 

MysteriousVisitor

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Certainly israel has a right to defend itself from rocket attacks. It does not, however, have the right to respond with such force that is bound to cause catastrophic collateral damage.
 

TheFoxxehAssassin

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Israel has the right to invade Gaza, but only if they were threatening them. I mean, hey, if you were the leader of a country like Israel, and say Iran was threatening you, wouldn't you attack them?

I fully support Israel in this one. Just remember, the Jewish people there were almost wiped out in World War 2. Of course they're going to be aggressive against threats to their country.

Now, if Gaza didn't do anything, then Israel can blow up for all I care. Nobody has a right to invade a defenseless nation, no matter the circumstances. (That is, if their intentions are blowing up the country itself.)

But, if they were trying to free them from an evil dictator, like the U.S. and Iraq when Saddam Hussein was still in power, then by all means, go for it. However, I think scenario 1 is the case here.

Just my :twocents:
 

Aidy

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Ok. A few points.

Israel really isn't their country. The Jewish people were given it by super powers due to the holocaust. Palestinians had land taken away from them that they had occupied for thousands of years just because the Jews had it when Jesus was around. Therefore you have to ask ... who attacked first?
I know I support Israel but the point I'm trying to make is that war is never straight forward.

And the US didn't attack to get rid of Saddam. The excuse was he had weapons of mass destruction... which he didn't. I'll use two quotes from Machine Head now.

"All they needed was a pretext. War's next."
and
"Who has won when we're all dead?"
Machine Head - A Farewell to Arms
 

MysteriousVisitor

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Come now, elements of the ruling party of the strip were lobbing missiles into Israeli towns. Surely Israel has the right to respond with commensurate force.
 
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FullMetal

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I may be bias because I do have family in Israel, but I am going to try my hardest not to be. The war is extremely complicated and if you want to really know why this is happening, you will have to read quite a bit because I am not willing to write a lot.

Hamas has been sending bombs off into Israel for a very long time. So Silent these are not threats that are going on, these are attacks that kill people- bombs that land on houses and destroy schools. So, on the Israeli side, they have every right to invade and try to weed out Hamas. Now, you also have to understand that t is not only Hamas that is in Gaza, there are regular citizens among them. The problem with fighting in this situation, is Israel does not want to kill the citizens, but the Hamas who are trying to destroy Israel.

What you also have to see is, these Hamas troops are hiding under schools. They use children as shields to protect themselves for opposition. Israel has to still attack, so what do they do? They send out letters (from plane) telling a town that they are going to be bombed. They also call them and the troops in the areas tell them. They do this to have everyone evacuate and only the Hamas left to be killed.

Now the problem is, this is Gaza:



See that little piece of land there. It is inhabited with about 1.5 million people. That is a problem. See how it is surrounded, on one side by the Israelis and on the other Egypt. And both of those countries do not want them leaving, and don't let them. So you have people who are almost trapped, but you still have a great threat to Israel.

I fully support Israel because these people want them dead, just because they hate them. These are people who will hide behind their own, even children, and watch them die and not care. It is one thing to fight soldiers, it is another thing to fight people with no conscious and no regard for others lives.

FullMetal
 

TheFoxxehAssassin

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Hamas has been sending bombs off into Israel for a very long time. So Silent these are not threats that are going on, these are attacks that kill people- bombs that land on houses and destroy schools. So, on the Israeli side, they have every right to invade and try to weed out Hamas. Now, you also have to understand that t is not only Hamas that is in Gaza, there are regular citizens among them. The problem with fighting in this situation, is Israel does not want to kill the citizens, but the Hamas who are trying to destroy Israel.l
Right, I know. By threats, I also meant any attacks that have occurred in the recent past. I know that Hamas has bombed Israel, I just wanted to try and be as short as possible. Sorry for the misunderstanding, and poor word choice.
 

Aidy

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Ah. But Metal. Does Hamas have a right to take but what was taken from them?

Ok. If the UN gave your home to Muslims because they felt bad for something that happened to them. Would you fight it? What about your whole country?

I don't believe Israel should have been given to the Jewish people in the first place. Not when it was already occupied by a different people for hundreds of years before. I don't agree with Hamas' fighting or their genocidal policy either.

I think the whole thing is just stupid. My mates all thought it was stupid.

Here's another one. In Gaza there are Israeli's that refused to leave when Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza. My mate had to go in, unarmed, and beat the crap out of them and take them out. That was his job in the army.

Here's a question. In the last 40 years the US government has funded and trained terrorist groups in Cuba that have killed over 3000 civilians. Does Cuba have the right to attack the US?
 
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FullMetal

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Ah. But Metal. Does Hamas have a right to take but what was taken from them?
Hamas is a violent, terrorist political party, they are not a people, they are not a county, they are not a religion. They were elected. What do you think the Hamas is exactly...

FullMetal
 

Aidy

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Hamas started off as a terrorist group but later became a government party and was elected.
 
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Typical failtactics, Hamas rockets Israel, kills civilians, Israel rockets back, killing civilians, and US media bitches at Israel for it.
 

IncompleteDude

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When Israel started, they would have been much better off just moving in with the Palestinians without starting their own country. They could have slowly taken over the politics and economy by their numbers, money and wit, thereby peacefully turning all of Palestine into Israel and avoiding this mess.

But it's too late for this now, and Israel is going no where. Palestinians have no choice but to submit to their new overlords or wither away. I don't believe is there can be a real 2 state solution. Even if there is peace, it will only allow Israel to continue to colonize Palestine until it is effectively an Israeli state also. If there is any 2 state solution, it will be in name only.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf
A third of settlements on land taken for 'security purposes' - Haaretz - Israel News
(note these are both Israeli organizations saying this.)

If you live in Palestine and hate Israel, you can either martyr yourself, shut up or move somewhere else. Right or wrong, they cannot be defeated. Personally, I recommend the 2nd option, because if you work with Israel, they can make you very rich. Better to make submit to your invader and give your children a future.

It's not like Israel is planning on a Final Solution to the Palestinian Problem. They aren't going out of their way to mass murder Palestinians, and I know they wouldn't if Palestine just gave up. They would almost certainly invest billions into Palestine to rebuild it, and bring the quality of life nearer to Israeli standards. Part of that would certainly be to make it easier to live in by Israeli settlers, but nevertheless, everyone would benefit. I know that most Israelis do not act on historical anger, but current anger. After all, they are practically allies with Egypt these days, who as we know enslaved their entire civilization at one point. For that matter, many Israelis are not even Jewish (1/4 arn't).

And no, I don't think it's the "right" thing to do. It's the sane thing. It's the thing that offers a better future. It's the rational thing when faced with an impossible enemy that will invest in your country if you don't fight them.

But this is far too logical a solution for what is now an emotional problem. It won't happen. Not until the Palestinian people are so sick of fighting and death, they don't give a shit anymore.

Either way, Israel will do whatever it wants with Palestine.
 
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Hamas and UN calls for a ceasefire, Israel keeps bombing.

Israel calls for a ceasefire, Hamas keeps bombing.

It's all bullshit, if you ask me.
 

Maxicoon

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It's war people die. People in countries not involved in the situation get pissed and start bitching at each other. But in the end one side will kill the other; then a new threat will come to the foreground and the whole process starts over again. A never ending cycle of death. Not much to say beyond that.
 
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Butterfly Mage

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I have no sympathy whatsoever for Hammas or the Palastinians. All they've done for decades is take federal aid from the United States and buy bombs and missiles to blow the crap out of Jews. I think they've proven that they just cannot peacefully coexist with anyone else who happens to not be a radical, violent, fundamentalist muslim. Israel needs to keep on bombing the Palastinians until they get the message that the Israelis are in charge.
 

Mesmerale

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I fully support Israel in this one. Just remember, the Jewish people there were almost wiped out in World War 2. Of course they're going to be aggressive against threats to their country.
Hehehe... Us Jews. No one can kill us. Egypt, Romans, Palestinians, Hitler. We are invincible!!

(That's just my "being funny" viewpoint. I don't have anything against anyone. =) )
Ok. A few points.

Israel really isn't their country. The Jewish people were given it by super powers due to the holocaust. Palestinians had land taken away from them that they had occupied for thousands of years just because the Jews had it when Jesus was around. Therefore you have to ask ... who attacked first?
I know I support Israel but the point I'm trying to make is that war is never straight forward.
Meh. Israeli's have had the land since long before World War 2.

Just because it wasn't recognized 'till around then...
 

mizzycub

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From an entirely military point of view, if Isreal wants to do anything about rocket attacks, it isn't going about it in the best way. Your biggest flashiest weapons won't stop something like that unless you use something like a nuke. The fact that the Isreali miliatary has had more injuries from friendly fire in the recent action then from Palastinian attacks also shows that from a purely strategic point of view they are doing something wrong. And the Palastinians aren't numerous enough to do more then infuriate the Israelis into further action.

Though that isn't the important thing here. The way I see it you have too sides both claiming their right to this land. Both are attacking the other side, the Palastinians in terror attacks and the Israelis through military action. Neither side is going to back down, unless the other side breaks their back. As I have said, I don't think this is going to work.

I don't think either side is really at right here, and neither side wants to stop. Israel is taking a superior attitude that whatever they do is right, though they wouldn't even have a country if it wasn't for the UN. Palestine won't back down because the violence on the Palastinian side is from a government based on Palestinian recognition as the country, instead of Israel.

I don't think the UN took the correct path when it created Israel. Maybe it was right to pick that area, but intergration into the existing countries, rather then making a new one, would probably have been far better as an option. No one is going to take kindly to the elimination of their country and the creation of a new one over it, at the flick of a switch, almost.

I think we have a situation where compromise is impossible because what the two sides what is so different neither will compromise enough. The only way I see this ending is 'war weariness' or something completely off the wall and original from the people trying to manage the piece progress. The first one is nasty, and we can't hold much hope for the second.
 
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