What are your thoughts on the vaccine?

[babyann]

My biggest worry is that the vaccine got made very quickly, side effects can be severe, and we still don’t know what the long term effects are.

Sure one could argue that getting the vaccine and having side effects is better than the virus but that also assumes you’re going to contract it. I’m still on the fence about getting it because the science worries me.

That’s just my natural skepticism. After hearing about all sorts of complications I don’t feel safe taking it.

It had to pass all the same tests as any other medication in all the countries. I was getting so frustrated here because it took my country longer than most to pass them as being safe. I was screaming “if all the other countries in the world say it is safe enough, why the delay?” But my prof explained that every new drug has to go through all the same tests; there can be no shortcuts. If you say I am assuming I will get the virus (which is increasingly likely, with every passing day) then I could accuse you of assuming you will get all the side effects from the vaccine? Most people here have reported really minor stuff. Read the (proper) science. Listen to the (real) experts. Ignore the politics. I understand your natural skepticism, I really do…but this time your skepticism is actually putting other people at greater risk. I want you to be my hero too…

 

[Beowulf]

It had to pass all the same tests as any other medication in all the countries. I was getting so frustrated here because it took my country longer than most to pass them as being safe. I was screaming “if all the other countries in the world say it is safe enough, why the delay?” But my prof explained that every new drug has to go through all the same tests; there can be no shortcuts. If you say I am assuming I will get the virus (which is increasingly likely, with every passing day) then I could accuse you of assuming you will get all the side effects from the vaccine? Most people here have reported really minor stuff. Read the (proper) science. Listen to the (real) experts. Ignore the politics. I understand your natural skepticism, I really do…but this time your skepticism is actually putting other people at greater risk. I want you to be my hero too…

Putting my phobia on needles and doctors aside, I reject your social pressure argument.

Are vaccines generally safe? Yes.
Are they generally effective? Yes.
Are there risks? Yes.
Can we ever eliminate risks completely? No.

However, my skepticism lies with a distrust of the system on a fundamental level. In my mind, just because they say it’s safe or that it’s been tested to be determined safe, doesn’t mean I believe them. Is that irrational? …yea probably I’m just trying to convey my world view point. I have a lot of reasons not to trust people especially when they tell me to just do something especially when the argument is utilitarian.

I’m not saying I’m against it, I’m just skeptical of a possible angle I’m oblivious to either done deliberately or inadvertently.

 

[nwm]

These are kind of old - but seem relevant to this conversation, and must do like music - they sure do make a point...
NOTE: Videos would not embed - Link did not work either Right-click, select Copy video URL, paste in to address of browser tab.

And even more so (vaccine itself - just ignore references to political figures [I didn't write it!] that part is not relevant at all, but the idea is)

 

[nwm]

My biggest worry is that the vaccine got made very quickly, side effects can be severe, and we still don’t know what the long term effects are

It is NOT really that fast. The technology used had been studied for about 20 years! - in fact a vaccine was developed with it for another virus spreading under the Obama administration, it was just never distributed because that one burned itself out before there was the opportunity to. So what you perceive as speed - is actually simply modifying something that was in the works for 20 years or so. I actually somewhat remember hearing about the technology then, an bragging how it could in the future make it possible to quickly roll out new vaccines because anything that comes up, it would be just a slight change to attack a different virus (like taking the source code of a computer program, and modifying one small part of it)
And there were LOTS of test before getting the authorization to mass distribute it - I do wish (for cases like this) they would hurry up and give it full approval instead of just emergency use authorization, but at this point that is just a technicality really.

 

[ade]

I have a lot of reasons not to trust people especially when they tell me to just do something especially when the argument is utilitarian.

I'm probably more skeptical and wary of 'big brother' than most (and with good reason if you read all my rantings on such things).
All in all, though, it's about a plan of action and a lesser of two evils. Since the plan has gone up it's own arse, individuals are left with the latter.
Catching covid is dodgier than getting jabbed against it; if, like me, you have/had concerns about unwanted effects of the jab, there is enough information at hand to ready your body for it, and for to deal with your natural bodily response to the vax.

And if, as and when you get covid, it's pot-luck as to what happens, but you'll definitely lose some freedom, perhaps even the freedom to refuse medical treatment.

Mucormycosis: India records more than 4,300 'black fungus' deaths

The normally rare infection has a 50% mortality rate and is hitting recovering Covid-19 patients.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Emu]

What are your thoughts on this...I saw once on the news that since supplies might be limited at hospitals. What if the people that didn't want the vaccine would not be allowed to be cared for in the hospital or even enter it since they don't believe in medical treatment? And the people that got the vaccine will be allowed to get medical treatment if they got covid again?

I wouldn't withhold vital services, such as hospitals, from unvaccinated people. Standard triage rules should still apply IMO. I wouldn't be against forcing people to mask up (if it's medically safe for them) if they're unvaccinated, or restricting visitors to vaccinated only.

 

[Beowulf]

What are your thoughts on this...I saw once on the news that since supplies might be limited at hospitals. What if the people that didn't want the vaccine would not be allowed to be cared for in the hospital or even enter it since they don't believe in medical treatment? And the people that got the vaccine will be allowed to get medical treatment if they got covid again?

What the fuck? Not getting the vaccine doesn’t equal not believing in medical treatment. Not to mention there can be legitimate reason for not getting and the ethical dilemma. By your logic I’m also assuming that if people don’t have insurance then they should also just bleed out? Ya know because the clearly don’t believe in medical treatment.

I’ll have to wait a considerable amount of time just to be able to see my doctor so I guess I should just die instead then?

It’s shit like this, people just refuse other people’s dignity of their humanity that pisses me off.

 

[buridan]

Sure one could argue that getting the vaccine and having side effects is better than the virus but that also assumes you’re going to contract it. I’m still on the fence about getting it because the science worries me.

If large numbers of people reason this way, it's only a matter of time before most of the people in that group get exposed to COVID. Some will have asymptomatic cases. Some won't.

There are too many vaccine skeptics in the United States to achieve a level of herd immunity that would protect people who haven't gotten the vaccine.

 

[buridan]

What are your thoughts on this...I saw once on the news that since supplies might be limited at hospitals. What if the people that didn't want the vaccine would not be allowed to be cared for in the hospital or even enter it since they don't believe in medical treatment? And the people that got the vaccine will be allowed to get medical treatment if they got covid again?

We are morally required to give emergency medical care to people who need it, including people who got sick or injured because they made a bad decision.

 

[chiaochai]

Putting my phobia on needles and doctors aside, I reject your social pressure argument.

Are vaccines generally safe? Yes.
Are they generally effective? Yes.
Are there risks? Yes.
Can we ever eliminate risks completely? No.

However, my skepticism lies with a distrust of the system on a fundamental level. In my mind, just because they say it’s safe or that it’s been tested to be determined safe, doesn’t mean I believe them. Is that irrational? …yea probably I’m just trying to convey my world view point. I have a lot of reasons not to trust people especially when they tell me to just do something especially when the argument is utilitarian.

I’m not saying I’m against it, I’m just skeptical of a possible angle I’m oblivious to either done deliberately or inadvertently.

how can you so easily omit the fact that other people get put at risk because of your decision? being skeptical is one thing, i definitely agree with the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" but disregarding others safety because of your personal hesitations is not just skepticism, thats just morally wrong to me.

 

[Beowulf]

how can you so easily omit the fact that other people get put at risk because of your decision? being skeptical is one thing, i definitely agree with the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" but disregarding others safety because of your personal hesitations is not just skepticism, thats just morally wrong to me.

I’d feel safer wearing a mask (I do) and neither mask nor vaccine provided 100% protection. It’s not like I’m going around coughing on people. Also the whole “do it for other people” argument falls flat for me. If everyone jumped off a bridge and someone told you to also jump because it’s for a good cause, would you? Have fun with that. People have a right to ask questions before a drug or anything for that matter enters their body.

 

[chiaochai]

I’d feel safer wearing a mask (I do) and neither mask nor vaccine provided 100% protection. It’s not like I’m going around coughing on people. Also the whole “do it for other people” argument falls flat for me. If everyone jumped off a bridge and someone told you to also jump because it’s for a good cause, would you? Have fun with that. People have a right to ask questions before a drug or anything for that matter enters their body.

"if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you?" =/= "you are putting yourself and others at risk by making this decision" do i even have to explain how much of a strawman that is? no one is saying you dont have a right to ask questions or anything like that, its almost like you didnt even read what i said. what i am saying is that there is a real tangible, material risk to this decision and you are not the only one dealing with the risk you are taking. its pretty sad that the argument "you should care about other people and the fact that you are putting them in harms way" falls flat to you. i am one of the people you are putting in an awful position and i am one of the people no one cares about in this situation. forgive me if i seem hot about this topic after so many people not only didnt care, but encouraged my death and others like me.

 

[buridan]

If everyone jumped off a bridge and someone told you to also jump because it’s for a good cause, would you?

Jumping off a bridge has a demonstrated tendency to reduce people's life expectancy. Vaccines have a demonstrated tendency to increase people's life expectancy.

 

[babyann]

What the fuck? Not getting the vaccine doesn’t equal not believing in medical treatment. Not to mention there can be legitimate reason for not getting and the ethical dilemma. By your logic I’m also assuming that if people don’t have insurance then they should also just bleed out? Ya know because the clearly don’t believe in medical treatment.

I’ll have to wait a considerable amount of time just to be able to see my doctor so I guess I should just die instead then?

It’s shit like this, people just refuse other people’s dignity of their humanity that pisses me off.

No, calm down that cannot happen anywhere. medical people have to take the Hippocratic Oath, something that they all take really seriously (and why I have always thought that they are the real heroes of any society). So they have to save lives if they can, they have to everything for the good of the patient. So that is why even enemy soldiers are treated in a war, and also in my own case I have been kept alive, once after a suicide attempt and the other time after a drug overdose. In both cases, many ‘normal’ people would not have lifted a finger to help., and ,any would have made the argument that I was better off dead. But doctors and nurses worked hard on me in both cases. I can see though that there could be other restrictions, like visiting a hospital, or going anywhere where there could be vulnerable people. Certainly if I was very ill in a hospital, I would not want them to allow unvaccinated people anywhere near me. I know that isn’t going to ever be 100% effective, but it would be another safety barrier. If this was something like say a tetanus shot, that would only impact on you, then I would probably shrug my shoulders and not even comment. Your choice, your body; I get that. But vaccines and face masks are not just there to protect the person getting or wearing them. They protect everyone. Ideally, we need to try to eradicate this disease, like we have done with polio or smallpox. That should be our goal. The next pandemic might be something completely different, like Ebola. Let me ask you a philosophical question. If someone came to you and could prove that if a cure for cancer would definitely, 100% be found, but the process might mean that you alone would have to lose your legs, let’s say a 10% chance of amputation, would you take those odds?

 

[babyann]

There are too many vaccine skeptics in the United States to achieve a level of herd immunity that would protect people who haven't gotten the vaccine

That argument was also used against polio and smallpox, on a global level. It is not a good argument.

 

[nwm]

"if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you?" =/= "you are putting yourself and others at risk by making this decision" do i even have to explain how much of a strawman that is? no one is saying you dont have a right to ask questions or anything like that, its almost like you didnt even read what i said. what i am saying is that there is a real tangible, material risk to this decision and you are not the only one dealing with the risk you are taking. its pretty sad that the argument "you should care about other people and the fact that you are putting them in harms way" falls flat to you. i am one of the people you are putting in an awful position and i am one of the people no one cares about in this situation. forgive me if i seem hot about this topic after so many people not only didnt care, but encouraged my death and others like me.

I would add, don't know about that person, but there are a LOT that have an issue with that vaccine that are also anti-mask, and anti-distancing! Once the vaccination rate in this state hit 70% public mask mandate was dropped, but suppose to be on the honor system you wear one if you are not vaccinated (don't see how you could realistically check and STILL retain medical privacy anyway) - but I see a LOT I know are not vaccinated, but also will not use a mask in public! - I am fully vaccinated, have been for months, and still I only did that once - and that was in a pizza shop waiting for a bus to come back for me (well, how can you eat with a mask on? - They had been take-out only until the mask mandate was dropped like that, so eat it there - hay it was HOT and that place had GREAT AC!).

 

[Beowulf]

Jumping off a bridge has a demonstrated tendency to reduce people's life expectancy. Vaccines have a demonstrated tendency to increase people's life expectancy.

lmao fair point

No, calm down that cannot happen anywhere. medical people have to take the Hippocratic Oath

Yes I know I’m speaking in reference to the quote.

If someone came to you and could prove that if a cure for cancer would definitely, 100% be found, but the process might mean that you alone would have to lose your legs, let’s say a 10% chance of amputation, would you take those odds?

Yes, but it’s not a fair comparison. Given the current situation.

My main hesitation is where I am COVID has had ZERO impact on my life, so from an isolated perspective everything seems fine to me.

Mind you, I’m merely trying to play devils advocate. I maybe an arse but such is sometimes required. That said I might plan on getting the vaccine as I come into contact with more people.

I’m not anti-vaccine, I’m just making sure I keep my decisions informed.

 

[buridan]

That argument was also used against polio and smallpox, on a global level. It is not a good argument.

I was not arguing against vaccination! I was arguing that people who skip the vaccine for self-interested reasons are making a miscalculation.

 

[chiaochai]

My main hesitation is where I am COVID has had ZERO impact on my life, so from an isolated perspective everything seems fine to me.

this paragraph says it all to me...

 

[buridan]

My main hesitation is where I am COVID has had ZERO impact on my life, so from an isolated perspective everything seems fine to me.

It's difficult for me to get my head around the idea of COVID having zero impact on someone's life.

When you say "from an isolated perspective," what does that mean?