USA Militarizes Mexican Border. Mexico Strikes Back.

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Tetra

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trump has spent his whole life breaking laws and getting away through legal manuefers and payoffs America has had enough of that also.
And point of fact there are entire towns and counties in the US that have a lower standard of living than a third world country and yet trump and his enablers chose to explode the debt buy trillions per year to give money to the wealthy political donors rather than actually modernizing our infra structer and bring some of these places up to first world , so he and the Klan made sure they got plenty and the actual taxpayers got not even table scraps , he has also violated or flat out said his campaign promises were all bullshit ,and now the law has caught up to him and family of grifters, he spent years trying to be the center of attention but now that he is he is trying to tear down America to conform to his rubber reality, he got away with that in business and thru 8 bankruptcies but the jig is up he's a corrupt president the 1st failure and hes had it fojing for many years.

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PCPilot

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Yes, it does. We have immigration laws. If you break them, by definition you are a criminal.
That definition is completely incorrect. The fact that something is "not lawful" does not make it criminal.

Immigration law is by and large civil and administrative law, not criminal law. The vast majority of its procedures, decisions and sanctions are handled outside of the federal courts under a very different legal regime. There is almost no scope to punish someone within this system short of temporary detention (until deportation) or denial of immigration benefits. The immigration law system has no ability to imprison someone or fine them, as any criminal law court in this country can do.

This isn't unique to immigration, by the way. There are plenty of things that are "not lawful" that are not criminal offenses. If I walk on my neighbor's lawn without permission, that's trespassing. If I leave my car in his driveway, that is also "against the law" but I am not going to jail for doing so (my car may get towed away and my neighbor may sue me, though). Tax law is the same way. There are plenty of things that are "against the law" but are handled administratively and are not criminal offenses. As an example, if I contribute $5600 to my Roth IRA this year, I've exceeded the lawful maximums. The FBI is not showing up and making me do the perp walk - I'll get a letter from the IRS stating that I over-contributed and I either pay the 6% penalty on the $100, I take the excess out or I can challenge their determination with different evidence of my own. (I did that a few years back with some HSA withdrawals).

The same thing happens when governments exceed their authority. A few decades back Congress attempted to give President Clinton a line-item veto, but eventually the federal courts struck the law down as being outside of Congress' legitimate scope of powers to delegate. Congress passed the bill, and President Clinton signed it. Did those acts (which violated the supreme law of the land) result in them being criminals? Of course not. Not every violation of the law makes one a criminal.

There's very sound reasons for not making all immigration law violations criminal offenses. Most importantly, the overhead would be insane. We try and keep things out of the courts (and especially the criminal courts) because the protections we (rightfully) afford everyone before we take away their liberty or otherwise punish them make every criminal proceeding much slower than it otherwise would be. That's a good thing. Equally important is the fact that there are thousands of non-citizens working here whose immigration status depends on continued employment. Under your model, losing your job would be a criminal act (on your part). Even taking away the absurdity of such a proposition, could you imagine the abuse and potential criminal behavior that could ensue from such a world, where one could blackmail any temporary worker with the threat of imprisonment? Wow.

Some of us believe in the rule of law, and realize that if you let everything slide you end up with chaos.
Have you no sense of irony, sir?

This nation was founded by an armed rebellion against the freest and most democratic state in Europe (at the time) supported by dictatorial foreign powers. The 21st Amendment exists almost solely because of widespread lawbreaking by large segments of the US population. The prime defense of the 2nd Amendment is so that the population can subvert the rule of law when they feel like it's unjust.

My mother is a great believer in "law and order", especially for black and brown folks. She doesn't feel like white folks need it as much, and white criminality strangely doesn't seem to bother her as much. If you believed in order as much as you claimed you do, you'd be celebrating the Queen's birthday rather than the Fourth of July.
 

Tetra

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Our immigration problem didn’t start with Trump. It started back before Reagan. There was a time in the first half of the 1900s that we would have guest workers that would follow the crops and then go home. We even brought alien workers into this country during WWII then immediately sent them home when our military men started coming home. Later Truman has been quoted as saying that “everyone suffers from the presence of illegal aliens in our country” and finally under Eisenhower we got “Operation Wetback” where over 1.5 million illegals were deported. So blaming Trump for the illegal immigration problems we have isn’t even close to accurate...neither is the notion that everything was just fine before Trump showed up. It clearly wasn’t.

The argument that only native Americans are real Americans is silly. The distinction we need to keep in mind is the one between legal and illegal immigration. The USA hands out more citizenship’s and green cards than any other country on the planet but in the process retains a duty to its citizens first and foremost. Our immigration policies are designed to benefit America first not Mexico or Canada or any other country. Trumps proposals to use a merit based system to determine who gets in and who doesn’t is a good one. We can’t afford to feed the worlds poor and an open borders policy would limit or eliminate our ability to help our own people and anyone else.

Wanting to make a better life for yourselves and your families is a noble cause but it’s one that should be used as a catalyst for changing the country of origin to make it better and less corrupt. I don’t want to sound cold hearted but the US taxpayers don’t owe illegal aliens free health care, free housing, food stamps free child care etc etc etc... with over 70% of illegal alien households on some form of government handout our social safety nets that we put in place for our own citizens are being stretched to the breaking point.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Trump is a white supremist or that he hates minorities or immigrants ...what he doesn’t like are people who break our laws and violate our borders and threaten our sovereignty. His viewpoint reflects the viewpoint of a majority of Americans. He is hardly a failed businessman or a failed human being. He may say things that some people including myself don’t agree with and he can be called many things but based upon observable reality I would. Think that failed billionaire (an oxymoron if there ever was one) is not one of those names.

I am not projecting any of my own faults and prejudices on anyone and my life certainly isn’t miserable at all. Quite the opposite. We are a nation of laws not a nation of men and the laws need to be followed or the violators must be punished or the laws should be changed. Respect for eachother and respect for our laws and customs is part of being an American citizen.

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I don’t think the President is saying that all illegal aliens are crap ...not at all and many times just the opposite. I personally have many friends in this country illegally who aren’t from Mexico (and some who are) that I think are great people and great friends. The issue has nothing to do with the characters of the people involved, it has to do with the law and what’s best for this country as a policy. Mexico’s rules are much stricter than our own yet no one seems to care how they handle illegal aliens walking into their country ...why is that?

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LOL they have him on exactly zero issues and they must know by now that he has them on 100s of criminal acts. Specifically Comey, and Hillary and Loretta Lynch and many many others. Consider this fact pattern:

What if Trump had:

Destroyed 30,000 emails that were under federal subpoena...after he received the subpoena and then bleach bitted his hard drive

Also upon getting a subpoena he and his friends took hammers to all of their hard drives and cell phones

Would he be guilty of a crime? Obstruction of Justice maybe? Of course he would. There are 100’ s of crimes committed like the ones in this example that no one has been charged with yet ... Trump is getting really tired of this witch hunt and so are the American people since it’s become crystal clear that the only people who colluded with the Russians were Hillary and the DNC. Once Trump launches Sessions and puts someone in there with some stones he is going to come after them like a house on fire. We already know that they are guilty and they are going to be convicted and sent off to jail. If you truly want to see the guilty punished then you will need to get on the other team because all of the evidence points at the Democrats and their people as being the bad guys who broke the law ...not Trump
My late wife's mother was a share crop worker, her mom worked Until she went into labor well picking cotton in a field, gave birth , went back to work .as it is we can't find people to do manual labor picking fruits and vegetables, last year over 5 million dollars of produce rotted on the vines , and trump hasvto be a complete idiot to ignore the warjings gifen to him , we need to expand our base of people paying into the system in order to support the boomers who are retiring ,we dont thanks to the government havevthe people needed to replace our aging workforce and thanks to corrupt republiklan who see social security as a slush / fund piggy bank are robbing America blind just last night they lost a vote to steal 2.9 trillion from social security ,and if you read the 188 page CBO Report on the effects of the tax scam just released once again the republiklans have put on collision course with a repeat of the 20's the last time the deficit was this high was just after WWII and they will be adding a trillion dollars a year ,in money borrowed at ungodly intrest rates ,we will struggle just to pay the accruing intrest same thing that happened under Bush ,and there scrambling to do two things pass as many shitty laws before November and retire so they get that lifetime pension , fuck the country and run cowardice , just as the trump family has an incredible history of refusing to serve or getting deferements.

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Slomo

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Our immigration problem didn’t start with Trump. It started back before Reagan. There was a time in the first half of the 1900s that we would have guest workers that would follow the crops and then go home. We even brought alien workers into this country during WWII then immediately sent them home when our military men started coming home. Later Truman has been quoted as saying that “everyone suffers from the presence of illegal aliens in our country” and finally under Eisenhower we got “Operation Wetback” where over 1.5 million illegals were deported. So blaming Trump for the illegal immigration problems we have isn’t even close to accurate...neither is the notion that everything was just fine before Trump showed up. It clearly wasn’t.

The argument that only native Americans are real Americans is silly. The distinction we need to keep in mind is the one between legal and illegal immigration. The USA hands out more citizenship’s and green cards than any other country on the planet but in the process retains a duty to its citizens first and foremost. Our immigration policies are designed to benefit America first not Mexico or Canada or any other country. Trumps proposals to use a merit based system to determine who gets in and who doesn’t is a good one. We can’t afford to feed the worlds poor and an open borders policy would limit or eliminate our ability to help our own people and anyone else.

Wanting to make a better life for yourselves and your families is a noble cause but it’s one that should be used as a catalyst for changing the country of origin to make it better and less corrupt. I don’t want to sound cold hearted but the US taxpayers don’t owe illegal aliens free health care, free housing, food stamps free child care etc etc etc... with over 70% of illegal alien households on some form of government handout our social safety nets that we put in place for our own citizens are being stretched to the breaking point.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Trump is a white supremist or that he hates minorities or immigrants ...what he doesn’t like are people who break our laws and violate our borders and threaten our sovereignty. His viewpoint reflects the viewpoint of a majority of Americans. He is hardly a failed businessman or a failed human being. He may say things that some people including myself don’t agree with and he can be called many things but based upon observable reality I would. Think that failed billionaire (an oxymoron if there ever was one) is not one of those names.

I am not projecting any of my own faults and prejudices on anyone and my life certainly isn’t miserable at all. Quite the opposite. We are a nation of laws not a nation of men and the laws need to be followed or the violators must be punished or the laws should be changed. Respect for eachother and respect for our laws and customs is part of being an American citizen.

- - - Updated - - -




I don’t think the President is saying that all illegal aliens are crap ...not at all and many times just the opposite. I personally have many friends in this country illegally who aren’t from Mexico (and some who are) that I think are great people and great friends. The issue has nothing to do with the characters of the people involved, it has to do with the law and what’s best for this country as a policy. Mexico’s rules are much stricter than our own yet no one seems to care how they handle illegal aliens walking into their country ...why is that?

- - - Updated - - -

LOL they have him on exactly zero issues and they must know by now that he has them on 100s of criminal acts. Specifically Comey, and Hillary and Loretta Lynch and many many others. Consider this fact pattern:

What if Trump had:

Destroyed 30,000 emails that were under federal subpoena...after he received the subpoena and then bleach bitted his hard drive

Also upon getting a subpoena he and his friends took hammers to all of their hard drives and cell phones

Would he be guilty of a crime? Obstruction of Justice maybe? Of course he would. There are 100’ s of crimes committed like the ones in this example that no one has been charged with yet ... Trump is getting really tired of this witch hunt and so are the American people since it’s become crystal clear that the only people who colluded with the Russians were Hillary and the DNC. Once Trump launches Sessions and puts someone in there with some stones he is going to come after them like a house on fire. We already know that they are guilty and they are going to be convicted and sent off to jail. If you truly want to see the guilty punished then you will need to get on the other team because all of the evidence points at the Democrats and their people as being the bad guys who broke the law ...not Trump

"they are all a bunch of murders and rapist's" -Trump. Enough said......
 

Tetra

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"they are all a bunch of murders and rapist's" -Trump. Enough said......
I don't blame anyone really for illegal immigration , I do however blame trump for violating our rule of law ,and at last count 7,368 individual and class action lawsuits lawsuits filed over his breaking those laws with his not funny mockery of American institutions he's doing and attempt to cause a civil rights and human rights showdown because hes a racist prick ,and since you seem somewhat versed in history listen to some of President Eisenhower speeches , he warned America that his party was full of idiots and that a toxic adminstration would one day strip money from the people and destroy communities and houses, to lavish on bullshit walls and miltary reckless parades and a renewed arms race that is why he is in most circles widely and highly regarded as the last honest republican, and i blame trump for deliberately whipping up the frenzy of hostility and the remergence of the whole white power crap ,even one of trumps assistants during an official press photo flashing the White power hand gestures , the evidence of his guilt and association is overwhelming ,just as his consciousness of guilt pops up every weekend as he tries to interfere with the Mueller probe ,anyone truly innocent would not be continuously throwing people under the bus , using congressman and senators as distractions ,and actual innocent person would say I did nothing wrong , the facts will bear witness to that truth end of subject till the investigation concludes and move on with his maga show , he hasn't, he doesn't, he wouldnt because he has no idea what hes doing ,his claims of negotiation prowess and control can be seen in his NDA's and fine print on his companies business dealings were he "requires" people to lie abouth his finances (which is legaly unenforceable and SEC Regulatory fraud which some people are only beginning to find out now) when you are a man who has more skeletons in there bedroom closet than Arlington national cemetery you should really not run for the highest office , because any and all skeletons will get a very public thorough airing? So I blame him for what he's done and said and continues to do, not something that he has no effect on .

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pd8615

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I live in Canada so I don't really get the issue of illegal immigrants.

Why not just allow a bunch more legal immigrants?

If I want a taxi at three AM, it isn't going to be a white guy like me that drives me home.

Drive out to a farm growing produce that I buy and you will see no white people doing the work that puts fresh food on my plate.

Immigration has made Canada better. Works for us here.

Let people into the country and they pay taxes and contribute.
 
M

Maxx

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That definition is completely incorrect. The fact that something is "not lawful" does not make it criminal.

Immigration law is by and large civil and administrative law, not criminal law. The vast majority of its procedures, decisions and sanctions are handled outside of the federal courts under a very different legal regime. There is almost no scope to punish someone within this system short of temporary detention (until deportation) or denial of immigration benefits. The immigration law system has no ability to imprison someone or fine them, as any criminal law court in this country can do.

This isn't unique to immigration, by the way. There are plenty of things that are "not lawful" that are not criminal offenses. If I walk on my neighbor's lawn without permission, that's trespassing. If I leave my car in his driveway, that is also "against the law" but I am not going to jail for doing so (my car may get towed away and my neighbor may sue me, though). Tax law is the same way. There are plenty of things that are "against the law" but are handled administratively and are not criminal offenses. As an example, if I contribute $5600 to my Roth IRA this year, I've exceeded the lawful maximums. The FBI is not showing up and making me do the perp walk - I'll get a letter from the IRS stating that I over-contributed and I either pay the 6% penalty on the $100, I take the excess out or I can challenge their determination with different evidence of my own. (I did that a few years back with some HSA withdrawals).
Thanks for making my point about rationalization. "Its just a little crime. Its not hurting anybody. I'm in a hurry, everybody blows through right on red" thump thump, scream. "Oh geez, Maxx, I didn't mean to kill you while you were in the crosswalk with the walk signal"

"My dog's a good boy, he wouldn't hurt anybody. Leashes are cruel and unusual restrictions against his natural dogness, even if they are required by law" woof, crash, scream. "Sorry about that collarbone, Maxx, he was just running out to say hi, he didn't mean to get tangled up with your bike wheel"

There's very sound reasons for not making all immigration law violations criminal offenses. Most importantly, the overhead would be insane. We try and keep things out of the courts (and especially the criminal courts) because the protections we (rightfully) afford everyone before we take away their liberty or otherwise punish them make every criminal proceeding much slower than it otherwise would be. That's a good thing. Equally important is the fact that there are thousands of non-citizens working here whose immigration status depends on continued employment. Under your model, losing your job would be a criminal act (on your part). Even taking away the absurdity of such a proposition, could you imagine the abuse and potential criminal behavior that could ensue from such a world, where one could blackmail any temporary worker with the threat of imprisonment? Wow.
Or we could actually secure our borders and moot the point. Doesn't have to be completely leakproof. Light up a few truckloads and everyone else will get it.


Have you no sense of irony, sir?

This nation was founded by an armed rebellion against the freest and most democratic state in Europe (at the time) supported by dictatorial foreign powers. The 21st Amendment exists almost solely because of widespread lawbreaking by large segments of the US population. The prime defense of the 2nd Amendment is so that the population can subvert the rule of law when they feel like it's unjust.

My mother is a great believer in "law and order", especially for black and brown folks. She doesn't feel like white folks need it as much, and white criminality strangely doesn't seem to bother her as much. If you believed in order as much as you claimed you do, you'd be celebrating the Queen's birthday rather than the Fourth of July.
Sure I do. How did open borders work out for the indians?
 

Tetra

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Thanks for making my point about rationalization. "Its just a little crime. Its not hurting anybody. I'm in a hurry, everybody blows through right on red" thump thump, scream. "Oh geez, Maxx, I didn't mean to kill you while you were in the crosswalk with the walk signal"

"My dog's a good boy, he wouldn't hurt anybody. Leashes are cruel and unusual restrictions against his natural dogness, even if they are required by law" woof, crash, scream. "Sorry about that collarbone, Maxx, he was just running out to say hi, he didn't mean to get tangled up with your bike wheel"



Or we could actually secure our borders and moot the point. Doesn't have to be completely leakproof. Light up a few truckloads and everyone else will get it.




Sure I do. How did open borders work out for the indians?
As per normal when a white guy is involved somebodie s getting screwed,the shit we did and continue to do to Indians is disgusting, if our policy wasn't end these people post haste ,then I am an idiot (I still can be ?)but I seriously doubt anyone is going cluster white people into reservations of abject poverty ( the way we behaved with Indians, Eskimo other native people's and black people is a lesson in what not to do to your neighborhood , he'll we couldn't even be trusted around there women or animals ,matter of fact Scott Pruitt is prime evidence of white mans ways , except that ignorance is feeding back on itself (For some unknown reason these morons think we'll just colonize another planet and fuck up that one the way we have this one) lots of time , no infact we dont have tons of time. noor does mankind .

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Tetra

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Wow that’s the most racist comment I have heard in along time
What's so racist about American history other than the fact that we have royaly screwed these people and cultures, its an undeniable fact ,and I say that as a white dude who has extensive ties and relationships writhin many of the cultures .

Is it hard to hear the truth without sugar coating !or the revisionist history spin that we claim we were helping them ? .

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PCPilot

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Thanks for making my point about rationalization.
I'm not rationalizing anything. I'm merely pointing out legal reality. Immigration law is not criminal law, the procedures aren't criminal, the standard of proof isn't criminal. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but that is reality. Substituting your own opinions for reality is not a healthy or particularly effective way to go through life.

Populists, like Trump, attract losers. It's clear because he talks about winning and being successful so much (people who are already winning and being successful don't need to be told what it looks like. they already know.) And the reason why Trump supporters are by and large losers is that society has changed over the past 50 years away from simple tasks to complicated systems that cannot be easily reduced to a simple slogan or two. They are systems that operate based on the laws of the universe, which aren't subject to our own individual opinions and beliefs. Attempting to navigate through such a world with solution making skills more appropriate to being the assistant manager at an Interstate gas bar... no wonder the coastal elites have made out like bandits.

When I first started in my career, I was amazed that I could make six figures simply by being able to string three or four complicated systems together and predict the changes in system 4 based on the inputs in system 1. To most of the people I worked with, what I was doing was akin to magic. In these 50 years we've forced people to deal with complicated systems with effects over many years. Most people can barely balance monthly expenditures in a check book, yet now they are on the hook for saving for a retirement 40 years ago (and it's not surprising people are abysmal at it).

But no matter what, you cannot succeed by reducing things to a simple slogan or rejecting the world in favor of what you feel it should be. Saying we should "build a wall" or "light up a few truckloads" to fix illegal immigration is no different than breaking your computer when it has an error message - it may be personally satisfying, but not effective. And this is why populists, like their supporters, rarely succeed. Their slogans are an emotional sugar high but their solutions don't actually work. They can temporarily blame others for their failing (Trump's greatest Cabinet ever is now a bunch of idiots it seems) but ultimately they will fail and be deserted.

How did open borders work out for the indians?
How did open borders work for 19th Century America?
 

howiebabe

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I agree, illegally entering the U.S. is not in itself a criminal act. However, we are told that most of these immigrants are here for work. In order to work legally in the U.S. you need an ID and a SSAN. So they get a fake ID and SSAN and using those are criminal acts. Or their employer ignores the ID requirement and then they have committed a criminal act.

On the other hand, if all the immigrant does is go on welfare, then they are only committing civil acts and taking dollars from other poor people.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are here to work and must be involved in criminal fraud or they are here to take advantage of our social welfare system and are then a pure drain on U.S. resources.
 

stanfordgirl

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I think you are using too big of a brush to the point that it’s misleading and not true. People who enter this country do commit a crime and while it’s only a misdemeanor it’s a crime nonetheless. People who enter this country on a valid VISA etc then overstay that VIDA do not commit a crime and are dealt with civilly and usually deported. The ones that make the news are the people who enter illegally (crime) then are deported and resented again (crime -felony) then murder someone or rape someone or kill someone driving drunk. When I was in Oregon this past fall an illegal alien had just killed a woman and all 4 of her small children after what is his 3rd DUII and as I recall everytime they deported him he would come back (sort of like herpes I would imagine) so while immigration law finds its genesis in civil law there are some far reaching and important criminal statutes that can lock someone up for 10 years and more for violating our immigration laws
 

Sheepies

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I actually saw this first hand crossing to get medicine. It's a massive waste of resources there's just heavily armed troops standing there... Doing absolutely nothing.
 

Azie

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Let's hope they continue to do nothing, cause that means they are doing their job a deterrent pretty well.
 

Tetra

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I actually saw this first hand crossing to get medicine. It's a massive waste of resources there's just heavily armed troops standing there... Doing absolutely nothing.
That's funny as usual trump lied !( since he took office he has lied every 83 seconds of speech or rage tweeting ), he swore up and down they would be unarmed and in support rolls only to CBP/ICE , I sure hope they don't accidently fire into Mexico trump has been such a belligerent dick President Pena could knock his ass down a few pegs with a nice international condemnation , we have already been moved to failing democracy and human rights violator , so why not go for the trifecta of scum , i cant wait for the court to take his war powers away over the illegal detention and imprisonment of a US citizen , because if the court does not agree that ISIS is the same as al quaeda ,we are illegally operating as a war occupation in violation of all international treatise which will totaly green light Putin to bomb the shit out of our occupying force in Syria and exterminate the American soldiers thus ending this proxy war , we should have known better from every other proxy war with the Russians, yes there are obscene things going on under Assad that's a fact but trump lacks the support , political capital or morals to try and enforce anything anywhere , let alone pull together a unilateral action amongst NATO allies ,he has insulted belittled and double crossed almost all of our oldest staunchest allies, his so called "America first" has a translation "America alone" we screwed our allies on trade we now on the short end of the stick having been written out and realy not welcome to try and rejoin as long as trump is in office, things are going to get mighty expensive real soon trying to trade with the European Union who is prohibiting trade with the US ,his kindling of the trade war with the chinese just cost 75,000 jobs and China is pissed , and then all his increasing troubles at home Maryland is leading a coalition of I believe were up to 15 states now that will ban trump from being on the election ballot in 2020 because he refuses to disclose his taxes , and Daniels/ Avenatti is having a ball with all the revelations of the corruption from Cohen lots of pople are getting exposed and what they had coming Karma ,and cohen was very usefull for many years hut as per dons track record cohen has been thrown under the bus as he is no longer usefull and cohen doesnt know just the skeltons in trumps closet , he knows the faces snd the names , congress is being pushed to far an is discussing buryingin an appropriations bill a clause restricting him from pardoning a family member or co conspirator in the russia investigation , trumps says he enjoys chaos , so if thats true why do you spend every sunday rage tweeting about his own fake news and no collussion ( just coincidence number TILT like a pinball machine ) this guy cant die or be removed from office fast enough ,and i am saying that in no particular order of which happens first ,I am easy .

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