The Mueller Report

Drifter

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People keep saying that collusion is not a crime, but, in reality, whether or not colluding with an enemy of the U.S. is a crime depends on the intent. Trump's refusal to testify means investigators must rely on circumstantial evidence tp prove criminal intent, leading some people to believe the case against Trump is weak, but that's not true. Circumstantial evidence is key in cases of collusion or obstruction because people hide their guilt by saying they don't recall or they claim their 5th amendment rights. Because of that the report cites this:

Mueller Report Vol 2 p13 said:
United States v. Croteau, 819 F.3d 1293, 1305 (I Ith Cir. 2016) ("[G]uilty knowledge can rarely be established by direct evidence .... Therefore, mens rea elements such as knowledge or intent may be proved by circumstantial evidence.")
The report also states

Mueller Report Vol 2 p13 said:
We also assessed that based on the significant body of evidence we had already obtained of the President's actions and his public and private statements describing or explaining those actions, we had sufficient evidence to understand relevant events and to make certain assessments without the President's testimony.
The evidence is there. It's just a matter of getting Trump in court, which isn't going to be easy. He'll need to be removed from office first.
 

CutePrincess

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It is mind bogging to me that people do not understand criminal intent. Even trump said something on the lines of this subject that went like "you can't lock someone on based what they think" What the hell do you think INTENT!! is?!?! this is why he was not lifted from the obstruction of justice charge, something he CLEARLY was doing to prevent or try prevent investigations finding other things about him that DID break the law.
 

StrangelyShapedTree

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The evidence is there. It's just a matter of getting Trump in court, which isn't going to be easy. He'll need to be removed from office first.
Except it isn't. Skimming through the report seems to show a common trend that Trump wasn't involved with whatever was happening with people on his campaign. And most of that seems to be regarding Hillary. So once again just another report explaining how Russia interfered with the election in order to show that Hillary interfered with the election. No one seems to remember this.
 

BabyTyrant

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I try to avoid politics because it seems to be one of those things filled with extremists on both sides; but from what little I know about this whole situation is it seemed like Russia wanted certain candidates to win because if the wrong person won the election it would be bad for them.

I know Trump wasnt the only candidate they were thinking of trying to get elected, but ultimately it went down to Trump vs Hillary and they couldn't have Hillary win

But if she is equally guilty of Cheating then I don't see this situation with Russia as anything worse, especially if they have no evidence to say that Trump was actively involved in Russias Meddling.
 

Drifter

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Skimming through the report seems to show a common trend that Trump wasn't involved with whatever was happening with people on his campaign.
That sounds like some kind of anti-Trump joke, but you seem to be a Trump supporter. Strange. Trump couldn't even lead his own campaign but yet he is somehow qualified to lead the country? Not a convincing argument.
And most of that seems to be regarding Hillary. So once again just another report explaining how Russia interfered with the election in order to show that Hillary interfered with the election. No one seems to remember this.
Do you really believe the Mueller report is about Clinton's campaign? Isn't it about time Trump's base accepts the fact that Clinton didn't win? She isn't president.
 

BabyTyrant

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I don't think who won is relevant if both sides cheated the same amount though; not that that makes it right; but cheating is cheating
 
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It’s all a drama and mind control, Trumps going nowhere get over it, go watch a movie and turn off the news !
 

Drifter

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I try to avoid politics because it seems to be one of those things filled with extremists on both sides; but from what little I know about this whole situation is it seemed like Russia wanted certain candidates to win because if the wrong person won the election it would be bad for them.

I know Trump wasnt the only candidate they were thinking of trying to get elected, but ultimately it went down to Trump vs Hillary and they couldn't have Hillary win

But if she is equally guilty of Cheating then I don't see this situation with Russia as anything worse, especially if they have no evidence to say that Trump was actively involved in Russias Meddling.
There is some deep shit going down in our country right now. This is definitely not the time to ignore politics.

The intelligence agencies we depend on will undoubtedly continue their ongoing surveillance of foreign interference with our government and the governments of our allies and others. By all means, if Clinton is guilty of something, try her and sentence her. But there is a world of difference between someone like Clinton admiring foreign dictators, having conflicting business dealings with our adversaries, being soft on Russian and North Korean malevolence, or inciting trade wars, and the president of the United States doing the same thing. Clinton could be the most evil person in the history of the world but that does not change the serious situation we have with Trump. Clinton simply isn't that important. Her faults do not legitimize Trump's horrendous behavior as president.
 

BabyTyrant

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I'm not saying don't punish Trump

IF you can prove his guilt

You cant say someone is guilty of Collusion when the meddling party was going to meddle against a certain side no matter what

And it seems like Russia wanted pretty much anybody EXCEPT for Hillary to win, so it wouldn't have mattered who else her final opponent was; Russia probably would have meddled to get them elected so Hillary wasnt Elected.

You cant blame that on Trump unless he was directly involved with them and I think if they had a case it would have settled by now.

It's like if an unknown party Souped up a Racers Nascar; the Racer isnt guilty of other people causing him to unintentionally cheat; he didn't modify his car; a party that had a lot to lose if the Racer lost did it.
 
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PCPilot

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You cant say someone is guilty of Collusion when the meddling party was going to meddle against a certain side no matter what
Let me see if I understand you: If I help my sister kill her husband and then get arrested, do you mean I cannot get convicted if she was going to kill him whether I helped her or not?

I do not think the law operates the way you think it does.
 

CutePrincess

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Trump has no direct ties, I am sure everyone agrees on this
What I personally dislike is his other crimes and his crimes by association, and i am assuming that concept is what pcp is commenting on.

We also cannot prove (least for now) how much he knew about those ties. What we do know and what I do dislike is his obstruction to try hide his other crimes.
 

BabyTyrant

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Let me see if I understand you: If I help my sister kill her husband and then get arrested, do you mean I cannot get convicted if she was going to kill him whether I helped her or not?

I do not think the law operates the way you think it does.
Murder is different from Fraud; you cant convict someone of Fraud they weren't involved with

Even if Russia got Trump elected, it isnt "because its Trump" clearly they would have tried to get any number of candidates elected as long as they weren't named Hillary Clinton.

It's like if you are involved in a sporting event and someone puts performance enhancing drugs in your sports drink; you still technically cheated

But you didn't make the decision to cheat, you didn't know they spiked your drink; and BTW they also spiked the sports drinks of everybody else on your team because they couldn't let the other team win

Do you really believe you should still punish the sports team that didnt knowingly do anything to cheat? Rather than the people that spiked the sports drinks.
 

MrGnome

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There is some deep shit going down in our country right now. This is definitely not the time to ignore politics.

The intelligence agencies we depend on will undoubtedly continue their ongoing surveillance of foreign interference with our government and the governments of our allies and others. By all means, if Clinton is guilty of something, try her and sentence her. But there is a world of difference between someone like Clinton admiring foreign dictators, having conflicting business dealings with our adversaries, being soft on Russian and North Korean malevolence, or inciting trade wars, and the president of the United States doing the same thing. Clinton could be the most evil person in the history of the world but that does not change the serious situation we have with Trump. Clinton simply isn't that important. Her faults do not legitimize Trump's horrendous behavior as president.
Well yes doesn't give Trump an excuse for polluting our land with pipelines, hiring past bush cabinet members, etc. I for one never meant we should ignore all Trump's crimes cause of Hillary. Some lower IQ hick Republicans would say that. But I don't believe in being a hypocrite. But sounds like some of you think she shouldn't be brought to justice. And think thats whats angers us because of the hypocrisy of wanting one prosecuted but not the other. But YES she is IMPORTANT because if she did in fact fund the Steele Dossier and tried to frame him. Yes she is important in this specific topic about Russian Collusion. If she did that, Trump has every right to want justice! She did in fact waste 60 million dollars on this stupid Russian Collusion investigation. I'm sure if any of you were framed for crime you didn't do, you would be flaming mad right? Hillary needs go to prison and especially clinton foundation should be shut down!

Anyone hear what the Clintons did in Haiti? Do you know Hillary built hotels up there and they let their sewage contaminate Haitians peoples drinking water? Even Hillarys daughter said she should do something about it and she coldy ignored them and let them die. She smiles to these minorities to their face and stabs them in the back when shes not in public. Much like must Democratic part does and course we know roots go back KKK so just all fits perfectly together. She is fakest person I seen in my life. I want her in prison damn it! She's evil vial women needs to be put in prison before she hurts anyone else. That goes for anyone thats caught doing this stuff including Trump!
 

dogboy

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Of course, this thread isn't about Hillary but rather, D. Trump. There are a lot of things in play concerning Trump. My guess is that the public will have to wait until Trump is no longer president. I suspect there will be a lot of litigation at that point. It is know that he has broken the Emoluments clause though I'm not sure how dire that is. His taxes will eventually be investigated and from the reports I've read, it sounds like he underestimated property values to scam his insurance companies as well as effecting property taxes.

Also from what I've read, collusion is not in itself illegal. It becomes an illegal activity if the act of collusion is treasonous. Making deals with the Russians could be considered as treason. My guess is that once Trump is no longer president, he will be in court more hours than he is now spending watching TV.
 

BabyTyrant

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And you don't think Hillary was making undercover deals to the people that funded her campaign?

Foreign governments meddling in our Politics has been going on for decades and I think every president since the 70s is guilty of that in some degree, had Hillary won, theres no doubt she would be selling out the US to the Middle East.

I dont think Hillary is any less guilty than Trump, if anything I think Hillary is worse because Trump is so obvious, he says what he wants to say and does what he wants to do

I'm not saying it's always something good (a lot of the times it probably isn't) but Scheming Hillary is obviously worse because you never know what that Vile Woman is gonna do or is planning to do in the Shadows; like Chancellor Palpatine from Star Wars.
 

CutePrincess

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Murder is different from Fraud; you cant convict someone of Fraud they weren't involved with

Even if Russia got Trump elected, it isnt "because its Trump" clearly they would have tried to get any number of candidates elected as long as they weren't named Hillary Clinton.
You are missing the point, you seem to think just because trump has no direct connection he is free from being investigated. He needed to be investigated because there was a lot of different fishy things going on, and at the moment you fire the guy that was hired to investigate you????????? that is obstruction. It does not matter if there is a crime founded or not, you cannot OBSTRUCT!!! He was likely obstructing because he did not want his real crimes to be found out, why else would he act in this manner? think about it? If you did NOTHING WRONG why would you CARE about being investigated?????????

now trump is making said suspicions worse with his moves not make the report public.
Well yes doesn't give Trump an excuse for polluting our land with pipelines, hiring past bush cabinet members, etc. I for one never meant we should ignore all Trump's crimes cause of Hillary. Some lower IQ hick Republicans would say that. But I don't believe in being a hypocrite. But sounds like some of you think she shouldn't be brought to justice. And think thats whats angers us because of the hypocrisy of wanting one prosecuted but not the other. But YES she is IMPORTANT because if she did in fact fund the Steele Dossier and tried to frame him. Yes she is important in this specific topic about Russian Collusion. If she did that, Trump has every right to want justice! She did in fact waste 60 million dollars on this stupid Russian Collusion investigation. I'm sure if any of you were framed for crime you didn't do, you would be flaming mad right? Hillary needs go to prison and especially clinton foundation should be shut down!

Anyone hear what the Clintons did in Haiti? Do you know Hillary built hotels up there and they let their sewage contaminate Haitians peoples drinking water? Even Hillarys daughter said she should do something about it and she coldy ignored them and let them die. She smiles to these minorities to their face and stabs them in the back when shes not in public. Much like must Democratic part does and course we know roots go back KKK so just all fits perfectly together. She is fakest person I seen in my life. I want her in prison damn it! She's evil vial women needs to be put in prison before she hurts anyone else. That goes for anyone thats caught doing this stuff including Trump!
she did nothing wrong criminally, she was investigated, k? She is just an average political, a watered down version of trump's crimes.
 
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Drifter

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I'm not saying don't punish Trump

IF you can prove his guilt
You can't do that without taking him to court, and he is blatantly misusing his authority to short circuit the justice system to prevent that from happening. Because of the cowardice of the Senate leadership the normal checks and balances of government are failing now.
 

Drifter

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I dont think Hillary is any less guilty than Trump, if anything I think Hillary is worse ...
Scheming Hillary is obviously worse because you never know what that Vile Woman is gonna do or is planning to do in the Shadows; like Chancellor Palpatine from Star Wars.
Let's all agree that Hilary Clinton is the fallen angel who was cast out of heaven to rule the world of the dead so we can get back to the more serious problem our country is currently facing.
 
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