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Aidy

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Well, Australia is right into saying sorry to each other at the moment. I'm half expecting the Eagles to say sorry for being a crap team or Shayne Warne to say sorry for being an arrogant idiot.

Still, here's the next 2 extremes.

1) (the big one) The Australian government (at least the labor government) is going to apologise to what we call "the stolen generation." A whole generation of native Australian's that were taken away from their families and either put into white homes or childrens home... both close to slavery... where many were abused and neglected which has lead to huge problems in todays societies. Saying sorry to 30,000 people is a pretty hard ask but they're doing it, finally, after 11 years of the previous government refusing to.

2) 100 priests in Australia got together and collectively apologised to the gay community for not letting them into communion and for just plain rejecting them. This is not the church saying sorry but it's a start. Their explanation was "Jesus forgave everyone for their sins so why can't we? He forgave a prostitute so why not gays?"
 
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What's pissing me off about saying sorry to the Aboriginals is that they are already asking for more! I was reading that the "elders" were willing to accept the apology, but they want it to go even further and be compensated and have a whole other range of benefits at their disposal. And I've got quite a few problems with that.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see how this can be taken as a racist rant. But I'll say it now that this is not a racist rant. If you don't live within Australia and deal with Aboriginals first-hand, it can be quite hard to understand all the ins-and-outs of this delicate issue. My personal experiences with Aboriginals have, for the large part, been incredibly negative. More often than not I see them sitting in the gutter or the side of the road, Coke bottle in one hand, spray-paint can in the other. I've been spoken to like a piece of trash by them, talk down to by them, intimidated by gangs of them and just generally looked as if I'm some kid who they could beat up for a dollar. So my thoughts and beliefs of them is founded on personal experience, and I am certainly not just saying this to defend a racist view. I will definitely admit there are quite a few respectable Aboriginals, some who have achieved more than I ever could, which is admirable. But just overall, from what I've seen, heard and experienced, my view on them is drastically negative.

As far as I'm concerned, Aboriginals right now have so much served up to them on a silver plate that it's not funny. And their response is always the same: We. Want. More. God damn, we give you welfare, housing, discounted education and free-rides through school/tertiary studies, not to mention land rights and respect to your traditional titles. And we just give this to you. White Australians have to go through so much bureaucratic red-tape BS just to get half-way to where you are now. And how do they thank us? By protesting, instigating violence, acting inappropriately, resort to vandalism and destruction of property, and overall are just a nuisance to us here who don't have such a free ride in life. As far as I'm concerned, we've been apologising to the Aboriginals for the past 30 years.

And maybe that's just a personal problem I have with them. My life hasn't been a free-ride. I had to work my ass off and study my ass off to get to where I am today. My parents were never the type to just give me some money because I wanted it, or even in some instances when I needed it. And they aren't very technical-minded, so they weren't able to help with my engineering studies. Yet, while I break a sweat worrying about having 5 papers due on top of having to work, Aboriginals are able to stroll right through, pick a cheque for their weekly expense - courtesy of the government - while on the way to university despite the fact they didn't even complete high school. I'm sorry, but for a country that is so high on "giving everyone a fair go" - where the **** is my help and support?

And then there are land-titles, which I think are the only thing they really have a right to lay-claim to. I certainly would not like to buy a property, then just have people camping out on it whenever they please. But understand, Settlement on this continent was bound to happen someday. The world population just grows and grows and grows! Over-crowded nations were bound to spew out into new lands to expand their borders. Human curiosity and adventurous nature has always led us to travel around and discover new things. Technology is making it more viable to seek out new horizons and settle in places once thought of as "being too out-there". I'm sorry that we forced you off your land and into slavery, that is unacceptable by any means, but if Europeans didn't do it, then peoples from the Asian continent would have, considering they are just next door to us. Either way, settlement by a more developed culture was bound to happen.

Anyway, that's enough from me. This issue always revs me up and puts me on edge and doesn't exactly put me in a good mood.
 

Tigger

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I had an argument today about the Abbos and how they get too many benefits. Anyone who points out that it's unfair usually gets branded racist. They get enough already, and the government shouldn't be saying sorry for anything. FFS it happened over 50(?) years ago they should just get the hell over it. I won't be participating in "sorry day" at any rate. Could say more, but I really can't be bothered typing that much and I don't feel like having another argument where I am going to get called "racist".
 
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Excuse My language, but,
The stolen generation was a load of bullshit, all the government did was try and do what was right at the time.
 

Tigger

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Alot of the stolen generation were brought up by good families, went to uni, and made good lives for themselves. I think they should take kids from allot of the black families now. They are mistreated badly, flame me if you must, but that's the truth. You can say disadvantaged this, and racist that but that's pure bullshyte. They receive more handouts and benefits from the government than anyone else. Why is it that I get only 340 dollars per fortnight to live off of (the maximum amount of financial assistance I am eligible for), while the aboriginals get everything easy?

There are so many government schemes and benefits for them it's not funny. All they have to do is scream racist and they have anything they want given to them. Why is it that they have Abstudy, why do they have specialist health services for aboriginals only, why do they get to do as many free TAFE courses as they want and get other educational benefits? What about all the other government schemes? The list is endless. What if there were special benefits for white Australians only? Would everyone scream that it is racist? I think so. It's unfair that they get all of this, they should be made to live off the same benefits everyone else receives. They should be treated exactly the same as we are. So much for equality.
 

andysetra

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This sounds exactly like the problem we can have in Canada regarding the native/aboriginal population here. Handouts are just a way of wimpy-ass politicians giving in to higher representatives of the aboriginal population and the bleeding hearts...and the thing is - handouts do more damage than good. It may seem to some people that it's a good idea, but it causes resentment among non-aboriginals (even if it's not intended, the feelings still show up). Also, it eliminates alot of the drive that gets people through school. "Well, I'm not paying for it, so there's no worry if I fail out". Plus, it seems to me, all these handouts do is make sure that race is *always* an issue with aboriginals. That's just wrong and sad IMO. I could go on about the reserves I have to drive through in the summer, and the experiences I've had in this city (which has a high native population), but let's just say it drives alot of stereotypes....
 

Tigger

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I just remebered something from history lessons at school. The aboriginals are believed to have migrated here from somewhere. Probably form Papua New Guinea, it used to be joined to australia and the came here. So who stole the land? :p
 
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Although I do not live in Australia or have any direct expeirances with Aboriginals, I can understand where you all are coming from. For example here in America, we have a similar problem with some blacks, mainly the older generation of them. They at as i we owe them something from all the slavery and segregation. This is wrong in many ways ut in other ways I can understand why they would want this. Ways this is wrong...
1.) Half of them were not even the generation who suffered, must of them are decest, they want compensation for their ancestors. Pretty narcisistic if you ask me.
2.) My generation and even the generation before this was not responsible for any of these problems the blacks had, so why should we pay for our ancestors wrongs because your ancestors were hurt by it?
3.) Overall they make outragous greedy claims similar to what you all claim the aboriginals want in return.

This is NOT a racist rant either. It just angers me that some people expect me and my generation to make up for my ancestors, 2-3 generations ago! I think races mainly do this just because they know if they complain long enough they will get something, so they keep doing it. All I know is this needs to be stopped. You do not see Jews going around searching out all the kids of the nazis asking them for compensation, there is no difference in that.
 
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Aidy

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Shit, I just did a massive rant and somehow it got deleted and I can't get it back.

Anyway, I'll redo.

Every one of you obviously has never spoken to a single member of the stolen generation. They are only 50-60 years old now, it's not something that happened in the far distant past.

I live in an area that was deeply affected by the stolen generation since I am close to Parkeville Children's home. I primarily know 4 members of the stolen generation, 1 is my mothers best friend from when she was a child, 1 is my namesake, 1 was a teacher at my school and 1 is an alcoholic at our pub.

My mum grew up in a town called Morrowah, or however it's spelt, which is about 400km north of Perth. It was a semi flourishing mining town which my parents family owned a hostel in. My mum's family were the only white people who lived in the town and, of course, my Mum was the only white kids. Thanks to the government my mum woke up one morning and her, her brothers and sister were suddenly the only kids in town. Drive through the town today and you will see about 20 people, aged 70 and over, sitting around, doing nothing, drinking, and a few young people on drugs. These are the parents of the kids who were taken and the few who found their way home.

My mum managed to find 1 of her friends who was taken. She was sent to Parkeville children's home where she was beaten by the head mistress and sent to a rich persons house to clean to "earn money for her later education" money she never saw again.

Then there's my namesake, who was taken from his parents, who were probably farm hands from his limited memories of them, and sent to a random children's home at the age of 4. He escaped at age 12 and spent 10 years searching for his parents. He recently managed to get hold of over 100 letters and parcels sent by his parents that children's services thought it better he not receive. Birthday presents for every birthday and the like.
He did finally find out who his parents were but woops, they're dead 10 years.

My teacher is much the same but she was taken when she was 7 and her dad died in prison. Apparently he never took a job because he wanted to keep searching for his daughter. At least her mum is still alive. She's one of the lucky ones.

Then there's the alcoholic who suffered from a very common problem among the members of the stolen generation. After being taken at the age of 5 he decided that he would be taken away from anyone he loved so anyone he became friends with he made sure he hated them and pissed them off till they hated him so they wouldn't be taken away. This became a habit he stuck to for his whole life. Lucky he never had kids.

Now lets go through some of the things you people have said.
"They get enough already, and the government shouldn't be saying sorry for anything." Not for destroying between 20 and 30 thousand families? For creating a generation of drug addicts and alcoholics? For creating children's homes where abuse and neglect were too common and children couldn't stay in them past the age of 15 and, therefore, couldn't finish high school?

"The stolen generation was a load of bullshit, all the government did was try and do what was right at the time."
Oh good. So since they THOUGHT it was right it's all well and good. Lobotomies were because people thought they were doing the right thing too and yet if you mention it today you are only discussing the darkest and most evil part of medical history since world war 2.

I also realise none of you have researched government policy on this or the opinions of the influential Aboriginals in regards to this. They think they are a load of crap that is making the problem worse. They believe that all people in poverty should be getting benefits and the government is too lenient on Aboriginal crime. So what you should be doing is complaining to you're MP instead of sitting there on your computer complaining about something you obviously will do nothing about. People who do nothing about a problem piss me off, they are only one step below the people who create the problem.

So how is this effecting our generation then? Well let's look at the 3 schools in one of the main Aboriginal centres of Perth. Midland. In this area there are 3 particular schools, Midvale, Muddich (if that's how it's spelt) and Woodbridge. In a normal school the learning difficulty rating is around 7% yet in these schools it is between 40% and 50%. Why? The stolen generation grew up to be drug addicts and alcoholics and substance abuse during pregnancy has caused a huge number of mental problems in the children of today.
The government is doing one good thing by screening all 4 year old Aboriginal children for learning difficulties so they can receive extra help to give them a chance in our education system. What they should be doing is screening ALL 4 year olds. Racist bloody government.

Now, what our government is doing is apologising for what the government did, not the nation. They've stressed that enough so that if you actually were looking at this issue, or listening, or even just muting the TV and lipreading what politicians have been saying you would know they are stressing it isn't the Australian people who are apologising, it's the government because they are the ones who cause the problems. The government can't go "it was our predecessors" because they have to accept the problems the previous government created.

Now, before you think of all the bastard Aboriginals who steal, cheat and still receive benefits, think of not this generation, but the next generation, and how we are going to change this bloody mess our government has created... and, if you are going to have a bloody whinge about it pull your dik out and bloody do something about it.
 

Yawnie

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Wow, why does this remind me of the hostile take over of Caledonia of some land that was going to have houses built on it. This land claim came from that the aboriginals said that was taken from them like 100s of years ago

The land claim
 
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Every one of you obviously has never spoken to a single member of the stolen generation.
I cannot reiterate enough that my post was based largely on personal experience with Aboriginals. So I haven't spoken to anyone from the stolen generation, the fact still remains that they have given me a big, negative image of themselves by means of personal intrusion and threatening behaviour. Yes, sad but true, one has ruined it for the whole lot, as the saying goes. Call me stubborn, call me ignorant - whatever - but just as you are, I'm entitled to express myself based on personal experience and emotion toward the issue.

Not that I'm planning on turning this into an argument. It's good discussion, we just come from very different backgrounds and regions, so it's natural that our views differ. :)

Now lets go through some of the things you people have said.
"They get enough already, and the government shouldn't be saying sorry for anything." Not for destroying between 20 and 30 thousand families? For creating a generation of drug addicts and alcoholics? For creating children's homes where abuse and neglect were too common and children couldn't stay in them past the age of 15 and, therefore, couldn't finish high school?
Don't single this out as a problem just amongst the Aboriginal population. The government screws people over daily, and problems within the Aboriginal community are also present amongst other races we have here. The big difference in this case is that many people were displaced in a short amount of time back then, thereby putting a real emphasis on the fact that these people were taken from their homes, abused and neglected. Now take the amount of time since then up until now and you'll probably find that a significant amount of people have been in a similar situation - young people having been displaced for whatever reason and taken to some place where they are systematically abused and neglected. Why doesn't the government say sorry to them? Does the government not have some responsibility over child-protective services?

"The stolen generation was a load of bullshit, all the government did was try and do what was right at the time."
Oh good. So since they THOUGHT it was right it's all well and good. Lobotomies were because people thought they were doing the right thing too and yet if you mention it today you are only discussing the darkest and most evil part of medical history since world war 2.
I think the government was doing what they thought was the right thing to do. I highly doubt a situation as big as this was done with intention of personal gratification for those involved.

And the difference between the Sorry issue and those example you used there is the simple fact that those medical procedures were done with the knowledge that they were seriously breaking the foundation of human ethics and morals. Those doctors and surgeons purposely caused great harm for their own personal gain - experimentation or otherwise. They knew what the outcome was going to be. The goverment that displaced thousands of Aboriginal children did not know what the outcome was going to be. There were no records to look back on and refer to, they couldn't make a guess as to the consequence. It was like treading on untouched ground. All they had to go on was the assumption that what they were doing was right.

So what you should be doing is complaining to you're MP instead of sitting there on your computer complaining about something you obviously will do nothing about. People who do nothing about a problem piss me off, they are only one step below the people who create the problem.
Excuse me... but you made the thread about this issue. I gave you an honest reply. Was that not what you were expecting?

If there's any one rule that I live by, it's to not get involved when it doesn't concern me. The whole Sorry issue, as far as I'm concerned, does not concern me in slightest. But that doesn't mean I don't, nor am I not entitled to an opinion on it. I gave you my opinion on something in a thread you created. The least you could do is not take a stab at me for doing so.

And FYI, Kevin Rudd is my MP. So I don't think there is much use in me seeing him about it.

Now, what our government is doing is apologising for what the government did, not the nation. They've stressed that enough so that if you actually were looking at this issue, or listening, or even just muting the TV and lipreading what politicians have been saying you would know they are stressing it isn't the Australian people who are apologising, it's the government because they are the ones who cause the problems. The government can't go "it was our predecessors" because they have to accept the problems the previous government created.
I understand that point - that current government is apologising on behalf of the old government, not the people of this nation. That's just common sense really. But I also understand that time's change, and what was acceptable in the past, is not acceptable nowadays. That doesn't mean we should be seeking solace for previous mistakes. I, myself, have made a lot of mistakes in the past, but I understand now that I really was an entirely different person back then, emotionally and mentally, and I have no issues with my actions. I'm at peace with myself. And it's this thought-process that makes me feel that apologising is just not necessary.
 

Thallis

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The priests were Heretics, pure and simple. Not for allowing the people in question to receive the Eucharist again, but for not allowing it in the first place. Though, I'll take this as a happy step to gay rights in the church.
 

BromeTeks

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Frankly, We don't have any of those problems in this part of the States, So I can't relate.
 

Aidy

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Sorry to jump back to this again... but actually going to a different issue. This thread was actually created because the priests were apologising to the gay community mainly, not for the Aboriginal thing. Kind of side tracked here.

And the difference between the Sorry issue and those example you used there is the simple fact that those medical procedures were done with the knowledge that they were seriously breaking the foundation of human ethics and morals. Those doctors and surgeons purposely caused great harm for their own personal gain - experimentation or otherwise. They knew what the outcome was going to be.

Hehe, I was using this example specifically because I read a really amazing article. The lobotomy was thought of as "a medical breakthrough." It was done under license to many people legally for a few decades. By many I mean in excess of 20,000 people had a lobotomy in the UK alone. When they finally realised that it was a disturbing and sick thing to do they stopped it in normal practise. Only a couple off doctors did it after that and one of the last lobotomies was done to a 12 yr old boy who.

Anyway, didn't mean to drag it up again but I just think that lobotomy thing is interesting.
 

Darkfinn

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Man I'd love to move to Austrailia... your problems are petty compared to the states... must be nice.
 

Tigger

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Petty in what way? We have far more problems with the abbos here than just this.
 

Sye

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2) 100 priests in Australia got together and collectively apologised to the gay community for not letting them into communion and for just plain rejecting them. This is not the church saying sorry but it's a start. Their explanation was "Jesus forgave everyone for their sins so why can't we? He forgave a prostitute so why not gays?"
That's good of them.

In the end im not bitter towards the church for years of persecution of many different people, the christian communities at large are only 'homophibic' because they're scared for our 'eternal soul', Im greatful that they are looking out for me and they're trying to do whats best for me, but I wish the hard-core christo-arseholes would simply leave me to wallow in my own sin.


Oh how I enjoy the sin ;)
 

Darkfinn

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Petty in what way?
Petty in the way that you don't have to deal with the majority of your armed forces being embroiled in a war that the general public dosen't support...

you don't have to worry about a failing social security and public health system...

you don't have millions of illegal immigrants clogging up your roads, schools, and hospitals...

you don't have to worry about your language or way of life being slowly eaten away by liberal "equality for everyone" whiners...

have your fuel prices doubled in the past 5 years?

I could go on...

Sure... you may have a problem with a "neglected" culture and its influence on crime and the degredation of soceity... we've had that here in the states since the 1800's... and it ain't getting any better.

I honestly applaud the Austrailian govt and people for doing all that they are and if given the opportunity I'd move myself and my family over there in a heart beat.

Just thought you'd like to know some of the wonderful things here in the states that you are missing out on.
 

kite

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you don't have millions of illegal immigrants clogging up your roads, schools, and hospitals...
this happens every generation. when the US is in a war or some sort of conflict with another nation we like to finger point our issues at someone else not even remotely related to our issue. (just ask your parents about the immigration of the italians or jews or greeks or any other minority that had to come over here during their hardships)

you don't have to worry about your language or way of life being slowly eaten away by liberal "equality for everyone" whiners...
agreed! no more equality for blacks or queers or women. your whining for equality is getting old, please leave america.

have your fuel prices doubled in the past 5 years?
its funny how this war was supposed to clear this up... wasn't it?!

also, the striking down of the US government on the native americans is doing a good job so we don't have to apologize for any of our negative actions to them. now all we need to do is get rid of chavez and al sharpton...
 
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