Real bed-wetter or not

Status
Not open for further replies.

Kapelmeister

Contributor
Messages
68
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Little
We all know that bed-wetting can occur for a number of reasons. It can happen because of a small bladder, deep sleep that doesn’t wake a person up, too much alcohol, reaction to medication, anxiety, sleep apnea, a lack of the hormone that reduces the production of urine while asleep or psychological reasons. The list goes on. It could be combination of things.

We have heard of some people who say they wet the bed on purpose. Maybe because they like it, or they’re trying to get their parents or partners to either buy them diapers or allow them to use diapers.

My question is this, are those who wet the bed on purpose real bed-wetters? Not just because the bed is getting wet but because it is bed-wetting for a psychological reason? If someone wets on purpose and claim to be a bed-wetter, are they? Or are they just fooling themselves or worse lying.

Just a random question I came up with and thought some of the answers would be interesting.

I’m inclined to say yes, it is for the most part actual bed-wetting for psychological reasons. I could be persuaded otherwise.
 

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
Bedwetting is well defined as involuntary wetting while sleeping.

So no, anyone who does it on purpose is not a bedwetter. Thinking otherwise is just lying to yourself.
 

MassIncon

Banned
Messages
175
Role
  1. Incontinent
Bedwetting is well defined as involuntary wetting while sleeping.

So no, anyone who does it on purpose is not a bedwetter. Thinking otherwise is just lying to yourself.

Yes, this ^.

The medical term for bedwetting is nocturnal enuresis and it's defined as the involuntary release of urine during sleep.

Purposely pissing your pants doesn't make you incontinent and neither does purposely doing it in bed.
 

Kaliborio

Est. Contributor
Messages
771
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
If people do what they do of their own free will, it's not bedwetting. It's a separate psychological issue that causes them to want to voluntarily pee themselves, but they're not bedwetters.
 

wetatnight

Est. Contributor
Messages
1,035
Role
  1. Incontinent
mine is real because of pinched nerves in my back and a formerly enlarged prostate
 

MarcusP

Contributor
Messages
194
Role
  1. Incontinent
Actually, the DSM states very clearly this:

Clinical definition of enuresis is urinary incontinence beyond age of 4 years for daytime and beyond 6 years for nighttime, or loss of continence after three months of dryness.[4] Current DSM-IV-TR criteria:

Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)

So, based on that, yes intentional bed wetting is considered enuresis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuresis
 

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
Actually, the DSM states very clearly this:

Clinical definition of enuresis is urinary incontinence beyond age of 4 years for daytime and beyond 6 years for nighttime, or loss of continence after three months of dryness.[4] Current DSM-IV-TR criteria:

Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)

So, based on that, yes intentional bed wetting is considered enuresis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuresis


Uh, check again. The clinical definition includes "involuntary", as does your wiki link definition. The definition even goes further to include while you're asleep. And since you can't consciously control your bladder while asleep, you obviously can't do it on purpose. (though obviously it is possible to train ones self to pee at night or not)
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=3264
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/enuresis
https://familydoctor.org/enuresis-bed-wetting/
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2014/1015/p560.html
 

Vaan

Contributor
Messages
69
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
Uh, check again. The clinical definition includes "involuntary", as does your wiki link definition.

Yes, it says "whether involuntary or intentional":
It says: Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)
Not: Repeated involuntary voiding of urine into bed or clothes

This is quite confusing though. Myself I wouldn't call someone who wets on purpose a bedwetter, although the name of this term is missleading.
 

Cheetov90

Est. Contributor
Messages
25
Role
  1. Babyfur
  2. Sissy
  3. Other
Yeah, intentionally pissing yourself while you are in bed is not considered "bedwetting" in my book anyway...
 

MarcusP

Contributor
Messages
194
Role
  1. Incontinent
I don't need to check again, I pasted the relevant section, and it clearly includes intentional wetting. I imagine this is to include people who are somehow aware they are wetting, but for various psychological or disability reasons are unable to make it to a toilet. I recall reading a study on bedwetting children, and they specifically included kids who wet to spite the parents as having enuresis. The only difference was the mode of treatment for the defiant wetters.
 

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
Yes, it says "whether involuntary or intentional":
It says: Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)
Not: Repeated involuntary voiding of urine into bed or clothes

This is quite confusing though. Myself I wouldn't call someone who wets on purpose a bedwetter, although the name of this term is missleading.

Citation?

Tell you what, I gave your four citations that backed up my proof you are wrong, yet you can't even produce one. If you can give me just three citations that implicitly say intentional/purpose then I will relent. Till then, how about you pick up a dictionary or two....
 

MarcusP

Contributor
Messages
194
Role
  1. Incontinent
Citation?

Tell you what, I gave your four citations that backed up my proof you are wrong, yet you can't even produce one. If you can give me just three citations that implicitly say intentional/purpose then I will relent. Till then, how about you pick up a dictionary or two....

Are you daft? The DSM says it very plainly.

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/enuresis-dsm--5-307.6-(f98.0)

The DSM-5 criteria for enuresis is as follows (APA, 2013):
Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)
Behavior must be clinically significant as manifested by either a frequency of twice a week for at least 3 consecutive months or the presence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, academic (occupational), or other important areas of functioning.
Chronological age is at least 5 years of age (or equivalent developmental level).
The behavior is not due exclusively to the direct physiological effect of a substance (such as a diuretic, antipsychotic or SSRI) or to incontinence uncured as a result of polyuria or during loss of consciousness.
All of the DSM-5 criteria must be met in order to diagnose an individual.
These symptoms must not be due to a general medical condition.
 

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
Are you daft? The DSM says it very plainly.

https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/enuresis-dsm--5-307.6-(f98.0)

The DSM-5 criteria for enuresis is as follows (APA, 2013):
Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)
Behavior must be clinically significant as manifested by either a frequency of twice a week for at least 3 consecutive months or the presence of clinically significant distress or impairment in social, academic (occupational), or other important areas of functioning.
Chronological age is at least 5 years of age (or equivalent developmental level).
The behavior is not due exclusively to the direct physiological effect of a substance (such as a diuretic, antipsychotic or SSRI) or to incontinence uncured as a result of polyuria or during loss of consciousness.
All of the DSM-5 criteria must be met in order to diagnose an individual.
These symptoms must not be due to a general medical condition.

Ok, that's one citation which goes against every other medical source. Two more and I'll accept your reference.

And why, anyone can find that one source of information that disagrees with all others, no mater how well accepted it may be. Your insistence on it being purposeful is no different than someone insisting climate change isn't happening. All because they have that one off source that says the opposite of everyone else.

This exact problem is why any good paper has a minimum of three references. And why I'm calling for it from you too. So either put up, or accept what every other medical reference has already accepted.
 

MassIncon

Banned
Messages
175
Role
  1. Incontinent
Actually, the DSM states very clearly this:

Clinical definition of enuresis is urinary incontinence beyond age of 4 years for daytime and beyond 6 years for nighttime, or loss of continence after three months of dryness.[4] Current DSM-IV-TR criteria:

Repeated voiding of urine into bed or clothes (whether involuntary or intentional)

So, based on that, yes intentional bed wetting is considered enuresis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuresis

no, it's not. "loss of continence" implies involuntary.

Continence means control...incontinence means "without control", thus involuntary.



DSM is a handbook for diagnosis mental illnesses not urological illnesses. However it defines enuresis is completely irrelevant.
 

MarcusP

Contributor
Messages
194
Role
  1. Incontinent
2. Incontinence is accidental or intentional urination in children who are at an age where they should be able to have control of their bladders.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/pediatrics/bedwetting_enuresis_85,P00984/

3. Voluntary, or intentional, enuresis may be associated with other mental disorders, including behavior disorders or emotional disorders such as anxiety.
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/enuresis#1

4. Enuresis is diagnosed when children repeatedly urinate in inappropriate places, such as clothing (during the day) or the bed (during the night). In most cases, the child's urination problem is involuntary in nature, and is perceived by the child as an unavoidable loss of urinary control.

There are three subtypes of Enuresis: Nocturnal (night-time) Only, Diurnal (day-time) Only, and Nocturnal and Diurnal. The DSM criteria for diagnosis state that the urination problem (whether involuntary or intentional)
http://www.mhmrcv.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=536&cn=37

I could keep going, but I have more important things to do.

- - - Updated - - -

no, it's not. "loss of continence" implies involuntary.

Continence means control...incontinence means "without control", thus involuntary.

Incontinence also means lack of self restraint, as in emotional incontinence. Almost every pediatric definition of enuresis includes intentional soiling. Most adult versions limit it to involuntary soiling. This is perhaps where the confusion lies.
 

SpAzpieSweeTot

Insensitivity about disability sparks salt!
Est. Contributor
Messages
2,533
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Little
  3. Incontinent
It's a matter of lense. Let's compare another issue where the DSM and the ICD seem to disagree. Is compare the right word? The ICD says ADHD is hyperkinesis. Basically, they need to move to think, because their brains are chronically understimulated. The DSM sees it as an attention issue. The difference? Lense.

You're both right. If it happens intentionally, DSM, if it's an actual muscle or nerve issue, ICD.

Slomo, I'm gonna say this, and hope to God this is a free speech zone. MarcusP cited the DSM before you asked for citation. If you weren't so busy fighting to be right, maybe you'd have noticed.

If DSM rules apply, it's still not the person's fault, and the person doesn't need to be treated as if he or she is the scum of the earth, which abusers seem to think they can be justified in doing when the ICD definition doesn't fit. The reason the DSM definition exists at all is because abusing these people doesn't help, and actually makes them worse.
 
Last edited:

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
2. Incontinence is accidental or intentional urination in children who are at an age where they should be able to have control of their bladders.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/healthlibrary/conditions/pediatrics/bedwetting_enuresis_85,P00984/

3. Voluntary, or intentional, enuresis may be associated with other mental disorders, including behavior disorders or emotional disorders such as anxiety.
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/enuresis#1

4. Enuresis is diagnosed when children repeatedly urinate in inappropriate places, such as clothing (during the day) or the bed (during the night). In most cases, the child's urination problem is involuntary in nature, and is perceived by the child as an unavoidable loss of urinary control.

There are three subtypes of Enuresis: Nocturnal (night-time) Only, Diurnal (day-time) Only, and Nocturnal and Diurnal. The DSM criteria for diagnosis state that the urination problem (whether involuntary or intentional)
http://www.mhmrcv.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=536&cn=37

I could keep going, but I have more important things to do.

- - - Updated - - -



Incontinence also means lack of self restraint, as in emotional incontinence. Almost every pediatric definition of enuresis includes intentional soiling. Most adult versions limit it to involuntary soiling. This is perhaps where the confusion lies.

Ok, I see where you're going with this now. See proper citations help.

You keep saying voluntary like it's done completely and consciously on purpose, yet when you dig into the "voluntary/intentional" portion it's clearly meant as physically intentional AND emotionally unintentional.

So yeah, emotionally unintentional would be an acceptable application for enuresis- even when it has nothing to do with physicall capability.

This all said, the OP did clearly ask if someone wets the bed ON PURPOSE, is it true bedwetting. Even with this extended definition for enuresis, the answer would be the same. No.
 
Messages
2,229
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
As food for thought, I'm curious where someone might draw the line between voluntary and involuntary. I think there are examples that clearly fall on both sides (like a person intentionally wetting to try it being voluntary and a person who is paralyzed being obviously involuntary). For example, some people engaging in compulsive behavior may not be able to avoid taking certain actions, even if they are physically capable of doing so. If a person says "I won't wet the bed tonight" and has every ability to avoid doing so, but cannot stop themselves from choosing to wet it (even knowing that it might have negative consequences for them), are they engaging in a voluntary or involuntary act? I don't think there's a clear answer, it's just something to think about.
 

Slomo

Contributor
Messages
8,268
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
  3. Incontinent
Good point. I would have to sum it up as long as there is some involuntary component (mental or physical) to the bedwetting, then it is true enuresis.

Maybe one good example would be voluntairly wetting the bed because you woke up in pain from needing to pee. And that even attempting to get out of bed would cause more pain than you can stand. That pain would be the involuntary component to you voluntary wetting, which would quantify having enuresis.

Conversely, if you just woke up needing to pee and could make it to the toilet but choose not to, then that would be voluntary lazieness, and would not be true enuresis.
 

Vaan

Contributor
Messages
69
Role
  1. Adult Baby
  2. Diaper Lover
Good point. I would have to sum it up as long as there is some involuntary component (mental or physical) to the bedwetting, then it is true enuresis.

Maybe one good example would be voluntairly wetting the bed because you woke up in pain from needing to pee. And that even attempting to get out of bed would cause more pain than you can stand. That pain would be the involuntary component to you voluntary wetting, which would quantify having enuresis.

Conversely, if you just woke up needing to pee and could make it to the toilet but choose not to, then that would be voluntary lazieness, and would not be true enuresis.

I think this interpretation is absolutely right. This is what was confusing me about that DSM definition, but looked like that it makes perfect sense.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top