Paraphilias to be unclassifies as mental disorder

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Chillhouse

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The Psychiatric Bible: Manual Manipulation | Psychology Today

Disorders that might get the boot:

The Paraphilias

The Definition: Intense sexual urges involving animals, children, nonconsensual sex, suffering, or humiliation are classified as paraphilias—a term that was thought to be relatively nonjudgmental when it replaced "perversions" in 1980.

The Debate: The category marks individuals as deviant and strange, even if they can live well-adjusted lives, according to critics.

So basicaly, that means diaper fetishism may no longer be considered a disorder in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I'm pretty sure Paraphilic Infantilism would also fall into that category.

Because, as we here all know, liking that kind of stuff isn't exactly life debilitating.
 

avery

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even if they can live well-adjusted lives

i don't know about that. my understanding was that the DSM only classifies paraphilias as disorders if they DO interfere with a person's ability to lead a normal well-adjusted life.

all the same, i think it would be cool of they took paraphilia out of the DSM. people can take their fetishes too far and develop unhealthy obsessions, but people can also develope unhealthy obsessions with normal sexuality as well. in my opinion there's no real difference between people who chose to live as babies full-time and ordinary old nymphomaniacs.
 
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At least that's a positive step towards public understanding or at least where they know about it but it's like homosexuality and it's don't ask, don't tell.
 

dogboy

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I wonder when necrophilia can ever be healthy, or pedophilia? I can see part of it, but not all of it. Of course the fallacy here is that so many conditions are lumped together.
 
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If a behavior or attribute set interferes with someone's life: (a) across multiple domains, or (b) to an extent where their life is unbearable, then the person needs to receive treatment. Treatment is rendered and requires payment. Payment is given to clinicians typically through billing/diagnosis codes.

Frankly, we can call anything by any name; if it's an orientation that does not bring harm to the individual or others, so be it. If it's an orientation that DOES bring harm to the individual or others, then should be addressed by either medicinal, therapeutic, or legal means.

I don't think it needs to be more complex than this.
 

timmywimmy

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I agree with Avery. Any form of sexuality damages if it becomes an obsession.

One more thing though. I think the thing we should celebrate - and remember - is that *b-ism, apart from those very rare cases where it's crossed with something else, like the exhibitionist paedo mentioned in another current thread - does nobody else any harm.

My abiding fantasy (and I KNOW it's a fantasy!) is to be looked after by a dominant lady in such a way that nothing much remains of the adult me. Even if that were to happen, the only person whose integrity would be in any way damaged would be - me! Hooray for *Bs. We are harmless!
 

BitterGrey

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So basicaly, that means diaper fetishism may no longer be considered a disorder in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. I'm pretty sure Paraphilic Infantilism would also fall into that category. Because, as we here all know, liking that kind of stuff isn't exactly life debilitating.

Well, both infantilism and fetishism are limited by the so-called "Criterion B." If the infantilism or fetishism doesn't cause "clinically significant distress or impairment" in a person, he or she isn't diagnosed with infantilism or fetishism...if that makes any sense.

Currently, survey data suggests that about only about 41% of AB/DLs might get this diagnosis. This doesn't mean that the remainder aren't real AB/DLs, they just don't meet Criterion B. This number is apparently decreasing at roughly one or two percent every five years, since around 1970. The decrease might be due to easier access to information, society becoming more tolerant, etc.

The Changing AB/DL Community
 

Spaz

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Currently, survey data suggests that about only about 41% of AB/DLs might get this diagnosis. This doesn't mean that the remainder aren't real AB/DLs, they just don't meet Criterion B. This number is apparently decreasing at roughly one or two percent every five years, since around 1970. The decrease might be due to easier access to information, society becoming more tolerant, etc.

That is interesting stuff, BitterGrey. Could the decreasing number be due to Psychiatrists learning more about it and deciding that this behavior is not debilitating? I studied this stuff for some time and, among other degrees, received a B.S. in Psych some years ago. However, I frankly don't know where I stand when it comes to AB's or DL's. I don't think these labels apply to everyone. I have wanted to and worn diapers all my life, mostly out of need (urge incontinence) and desire (regressive behavior). I am occasionally sexually aroused by wearing diapers or having my wife wear them, but 99% of the time I wear them for their intended purpose. I think most people can integrate their lives with their diaper/baby stuff so that they function "normally." However, if allowed to act out our fantasies to the greatest degree, many of us would probably become non-functioning adults, myself included. The question is, would anyone want to persist in that fantasy world?
Spaz
 

Sila

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That is interesting stuff, BitterGrey. Could the decreasing number be due to Psychiatrists learning more about it and deciding that this behavior is not debilitating? I studied this stuff for some time and, among other degrees, received a B.S. in Psych some years ago. However, I frankly don't know where I stand when it comes to AB's or DL's. I don't think these labels apply to everyone. I have wanted to and worn diapers all my life, mostly out of need (urge incontinence) and desire (regressive behavior). I am occasionally sexually aroused by wearing diapers or having my wife wear them, but 99% of the time I wear them for their intended purpose. I think most people can integrate their lives with their diaper/baby stuff so that they function "normally." However, if allowed to act out our fantasies to the greatest degree, many of us would probably become non-functioning adults, myself included. The question is, would anyone want to persist in that fantasy world?
Spaz

Well, I can speak for myself in saying I would not want to persist the fantasy world for long. I would much rather have it as something to look forward to at the end of a long day, or as a special "treat". ^^ That way it still would hold its interest, would still be something special, and I could still function as an adult (of course, that's all the future speaking here, considering I'm only 18 and can't do much to be considered a functioning adult. <<)
 
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That is interesting stuff, BitterGrey. Could the decreasing number be due to Psychiatrists learning more about it and deciding that this behavior is not debilitating? I studied this stuff for some time and, among other degrees, received a B.S. in Psych some years ago. However, I frankly don't know where I stand when it comes to AB's or DL's. I don't think these labels apply to everyone. I have wanted to and worn diapers all my life, mostly out of need (urge incontinence) and desire (regressive behavior). I am occasionally sexually aroused by wearing diapers or having my wife wear them, but 99% of the time I wear them for their intended purpose. I think most people can integrate their lives with their diaper/baby stuff so that they function "normally." However, if allowed to act out our fantasies to the greatest degree, many of us would probably become non-functioning adults, myself included. The question is, would anyone want to persist in that fantasy world?
Spaz

It's probably more likely that there are more non-damaging outlets for this.

Look, had I access to ADISC as a kid, my life then would have been significantly less lonely.

In much the same way, it is possible to experience a community of like-minded folks now without having to either completely disrupt one's life or just eat it unassisted.

Speaking for myself, I'd not want to go 24/7 or otherwise live in a fantasy environment. Fantasies are best, I think, when they are visited from time to time rather than becoming part of the typical everyday tableau. In short, they are most effective when they remain sublime, and familiarity and routine disrupt this.
 

DannyTheNinja

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I think they need to use separate definitions.

There are people who live healthy AB/DL lives, and people who become ruined by it. Most of the people here on ADISC are the former; if you go to a place like DiaperSpace, you'll meet a few pretty screwed up folks who just obsess. I think this is the "Criterion B" that BitterGrey is talking about.

The article also mentions pedophilia though. While in a highly strict psychological sense it may not be a "disorder" as opposed to a "preference", our culture strongly defines it as a disorder. Psychiatrist Robert Spitzer calls the removal of pedophilia from an official list of disorders "a public relations disaster", and for good reason: people simply aren't wiling to look at someone who wants to have sex with kids as a human being as of right now.

It takes a fair amount of introspection for me to decide the answer to this question because of the inherent bias in nearly all cultures today: Is self control (the central element to Criterion B) possible with pedophilia? I would say it's difficult, very difficult, but yes. Again, you have to think long and hard about a question like that because you will be prejudiced. Personally, I would consider self control with something like pedophilia to be possible, but highly unlikely, whereas self control with infantilism is a much more common thing to see.

Whatever the psychiatrists say, we must remember the fundamental difference between AB/DLism and pedophilia: AB/DLism is diapers, pedophilia is children. Nobody cares, nor should they, if you wank into a wad of cotton, cellulose pulp and sodium polyacrylate, enjoying the kinky feel of it attached to your waist. Plenty of people care if you destroy the innocence of a child. In my opinion, it's a disorder if you can look at the difference between a diaper and a child and somehow rationalize the act of raping a child.

--Danny :ninja:
 
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I think they need to use separate definitions.

There are people who live healthy AB/DL lives, and people who become ruined by it. Most of the people here on ADISC are the former; if you go to a place like DiaperSpace, you'll meet a few pretty screwed up folks who just obsess. I think this is the "Criterion B" that BitterGrey is talking about.

No, the Criterion B that BitterGrey is talking about is the same one that I have quoted several times directly from the DSM. Indeed, it is the touchstone that I keep bringing up--over and over again--as Criterion A defines the time-span of affliction, but B is the more potentially damaging aspect.

"cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning"
You'll note the similarity between this and my numerous discussions of impact within and across domains in one's life.

This is what Criterion B in this DSM/ICD stream means.

It takes a fair amount of introspection for me to decide the answer to this question because of the inherent bias in nearly all cultures today: Is self control (the central element to Criterion B) possible with pedophilia? I would say it's difficult, very difficult, but yes. Again, you have to think long and hard about a question like that because you will be prejudiced. Personally, I would consider self control with something like pedophilia to be possible, but highly unlikely, whereas self control with infantilism is a much more common thing to see.
You are arguing that these two--pedophilia and paraphiliac infantilism--are somehow different and fundamentally distinct from each other.

You may note a thread I posted a while back with this sole purpose. I received a mix of responses and the thread died a horrible death because it is difficult to start to unpack this. You have just re-opened this conversation.

Both items (all 3, if you want to include DL behaviors) exist within the same classification group or diagnostic "family."

Should these be distinct and different--as you argue--or are these aspects of the same underlying thing that has been expressed differently?

Plenty of people care if you destroy the innocence of a child. In my opinion, it's a disorder if you can look at the difference between a diaper and a child and somehow rationalize the act of raping a child.
We've been down this road before on the forums. ICD-9 302.2. Pedophilia can happen without a child being raped, and there could be other issues at work besides pedophilia if a child is raped. The two sets (pedophilia and child-raping) are not identical.
 
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BitterGrey

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That is interesting stuff, BitterGrey. Could the decreasing number be due to Psychiatrists learning more about it and deciding that this behavior is not debilitating?

More enlightened psychiatrists might be one factor, but probably not a major one. Older AB/DLs like myself grew up believing that they were lone, uniquely perverted. This caused a number of effects that which might have had nothing to do with infantilism. Cultural awareness and the availability of information are probably the most important factors in the decreasing risk of distress and impairment.

The major shifts in the survey data are roughly coincident with the growth of the Internet and the Stonewall riots. However, the coincidence isn't certain. For example, it assumes that the effects of Stonewall took about a half-generation to propagate.

It's probably more likely that there are more non-damaging outlets for this.

Yes, and a roundabout way, it might become moreso. Technically infantilism is categorized as a masochism. Poor sexologists used to haunt morgues to learn about masochism. Many masochists weren't connected with the sadomasochism community, and learned their practices by secretive trial and error. Too often, they ended up in the morgue. (We, in contrast, had safer outlets provided by Sears.)

With better access to the experienced and educated community, masochists are living safer lives, organizing, and stand a chance of getting the diagnosis of masochism removed.

This will have the effect of making masochism and infantilism a post-paraphilia, as homosexuality is today.

No, the Criterion B that BitterGrey is talking about is the same one that I have quoted several times directly from the DSM. ...
You are arguing that these two--pedophilia and paraphilic infantilism--are somehow different and fundamentally distinct from each other.
In addition to many differences probably already raised, the two paraphilias have different Criterion B's. Specifically, theirs includes practice, while ours does not: "The person has acted on these sexual urges or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty."
 
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Spaz

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Look, had I access to ADISC as a kid, my life then would have been significantly less lonely.

I would completely agree since it was not until I was 22 when I found out there were older people who wore diapers and had infantile desires. For me, it would have helped alleviate the guilt and shame of needing/wanting diapers at an older age. Something my family was ready to dish out at will.

More enlightened psychiatrists might be one factor, but probably not a major one.

The reason I bring this up is the two psychiatrists I have spoken to on separate occasions regarding this subject knew very little about it. Then again, with this subject getting airplay on outlandish talk shows in the early 90's and, of course, the internet, there is now a lot of information out there. I don't think most younger DL/TB/AB's realize the tremendous support websites like this provide.

...and the Stonewall riots...the effects of Stonewall took about a half-generation to propagate.

I'll have to look that one up since I only have a vague idea what the Stonewall riots are.
Spaz
 

Raccoon

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If a behavior or attribute set interferes with someone's life: (a) across multiple domains, or (b) to an extent where their life is unbearable, then the person needs to receive treatment. Treatment is rendered and requires payment. Payment is given to clinicians typically through billing/diagnosis codes.

Frankly, we can call anything by any name; if it's an orientation that does not bring harm to the individual or others, so be it. If it's an orientation that DOES bring harm to the individual or others, then should be addressed by either medicinal, therapeutic, or legal means.

I don't think it needs to be more complex than this.

Damn, just as I was about to go and complicate it. Now I have nothing to do until Judge Judy comes on.

No, really... A paraphilia is still a paraphilia; it just is not ALWAYS a bad thing. Remember some things are a matter of degree: likeing your partner's hair and enjoying running your hands over it is far from obsessively collecting combs, brushes, scrunchies, and hat pins (because they touch hair) and snipping locks from unsuspecting bus passengers in the seat in front of you to go home and fap to.
 
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No, really... A paraphilia is still a paraphilia; it just is not ALWAYS a bad thing. Remember some things are a matter of degree: likeing your partner's hair and enjoying running your hands over it is far from obsessively collecting combs, brushes, scrunchies, and hat pins (because they touch hair) and snipping locks from unsuspecting bus passengers in the seat in front of you to go home and fap to.

And we again come to an interesting--and key--point.

Look at what you have done here: you have shifted ground slightly on two fronts: severity and target. This is "within" a potential disorder in a diagnostic family, as opposed to "across" potential disorders. Given this, might all our discussions be window-dressing for a more fundamental 2x2 truth?

I'll put suggested outcomes in CAPS. Viz:

"Truth Table"
--------------
Severity-Mild x Target-Internal = ORIENTATION / QUIRK. NO CONSULT.
Severity-Mild x Target-External = MEASURES TO ELIMINATE THEFT.
Severity-Extreme x Target-Internal = COUNSELING RECOMMENDED.
Severity-Extreme x Target-External = COUNSELING & LEGAL INTERVENTION REQUIRED.
--------------


This seems most logically to break down into a 2x2 grid--a third axis could be added, but I'm avoiding that for simplicity right now--with PDF "clouds" clustering about the center of each group, extending out into other groups.
 

Raccoon

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And we again come to an interesting--and key--point.

Look at what you have done here: you have shifted ground slightly on two fronts: severity and target. This is "within" a potential disorder in a diagnostic family, as opposed to "across" potential disorders. Given this, might all our discussions be window-dressing for a more fundamental 2x2 truth?

I'll put suggested outcomes in CAPS. Viz:

"Truth Table"
--------------
Severity-Mild x Target-Internal = ORIENTATION / QUIRK. NO CONSULT.
Severity-Mild x Target-External = MEASURES TO ELIMINATE THEFT.
Severity-Extreme x Target-Internal = COUNSELING RECOMMENDED.
Severity-Extreme x Target-External = COUNSELING & LEGAL INTERVENTION REQUIRED.
--------------


This seems most logically to break down into a 2x2 grid--a third axis could be added, but I'm avoiding that for simplicity right now--with PDF "clouds" clustering about the center of each group, extending out into other groups.

Raccoon wonders if he has died and gone to heaven. Squeeeeeeee
 
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