Outsider's Perspectives

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Trevor

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I came across this article during lunch. I see people asking questions like this from time to time, but most often they are sent to people who specialize in sexual question (particularly Dan Savage with Savage Love) or it's in some format that doesn't have reader discussion. The letter writer's question and the professional response are not really the most interesting to me, it's the discussion that follows. Unfortunately, she's covering an array of subjects, so the responses are a mix of those topics. Here's the main article:

Advice on manners and morals (May 29, 2008). - - Slate Magazine

Here's their discussion forum for this article:

Slate -> The Fray -> Dear Prudence

I skimmed most of the responses pertaining to this and be advised, this is not a particularly encouraging look at how people can react to what we're interested in. I do think it's instructive to see the range of responses, though. This site is oriented to adults, so the replies are typically reasonably thoughtful, even when they're extremely negative. For example:

In fact, it does say it is a fetish. The LW uses the word "fetish" twice and "fantasy" once. In my mind, people use the word "fantasy" because it sounds less threatening than "fetish". A fantasy is an option, a fetish is a requirement.

He broke her in gently telling her he "likes to wear diapers" and her horrified reaction stopped him short from elaborating that he also likes to be cuddled and powdered and Desitined and that he gets a huge boner at the sound of the diaper tape being removed because that means mommy & baby playtime. This is a pedophilic fantasy, plain and simple.
There's a lot of resistance to this. A lot of it is based in ignorance, at least. The potentially difficult part is getting someone to listen long enough to see how it's not really so bad. If you know anyone who has accepted this part of you, go give them a hug.
 
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Beyond a kink-free, heterosexual relationship, there is little doubt that anything wouldn't be met with a high amount of criticism. As you said, a lot is bred out of ignorance, people not only unwilling to accept it, but going as far as to completely shun it. With this fetish it's very easy to do that, especially since there are diapers so a connotation with babies is made. People don't realise that the fetish is with the diaper itself - as an object - or with being treated like a baby. There is, in no way, any attraction to the baby itself. Unfortunately, many people just take the easy explanation, no matter how falsified it may be.

In fact, it seems people are willing to believe anything just to explain something that they've been confronted with and are confused about. It's been said before, our society, however developed you want to call it, has a serious lack of understanding and acceptance. We just don't seem wired up to be able to handle anything outside what is considered societal-norm - we live in a world where the collective thought thrives and majority rules. We blindly throw our reasons and justification at a problem rather than trying to understand it better. In that, we have hardly developed at all. Knowledge is something that moves us forward in life, but knowledge comes at the price of actually wanting to understand what is presented to us. A concept people just don't want to grapple.

With that said, previous examples of this fetish have been thrown into the spotlight before, as we've all seen. A large portion of that has been relatively negative, thanks to those select few that feel they must flamboyantly proclaim something that is rather personal, not to mention sexual to the rest of us. It's a shame to think that there are those in our own community who are destroying us. As a society that lives off what is fed to us by the media, there is no surprise really as to why people would have such a negative image of this fetish. Since that plays well into the [false] connections that this fetish has to do with babies, is there really any surprise that people do think that paedophilia is somehow involved? Any surprise that people think we are sexual deviants? Or any surprise that people think we are seriously messed up mentally, physically, socially or emotionally?

To a great extent it is ignorance at its finest; I simply see it as a lack of understanding and an unwillingness to accept something that is very confronting and something that has been portrayed very negatively in the past. All these factors that have led to a general consensus that we are people who have some issues that are in dire need of professional attention. Not true is the sense that the most intelligent people I've ever spoken to have been from this fetish-community and I feel that has a lot to do with the fact we are open about it and that we do accept it. Regrettably and in great contrast to this, some of the most stupid and idiotic people I've ever spoken to have been from this fetish-community. It's a two-way street where the big question is which way are you going. Do you wish to strive for understanding and acceptance, or are you fine with it being a solely deviant and sexual experience. The latter, I find are the one's who do go into the spotlight and who do give the rest of us an unfavourable reputation.

If it were up to me, I would stamp it out. But in that sense, I would be contradicting myself in that I strive for tolerance, yet am reluctant to harbour discernment for those who - albeit part of the same fetish - are travelling in a completely opposite direction to which I am. I wouldn't be practising what I preach and to me that is something that has struck me as one of human's greatest logical flaws. You could say that nothing positive comes from a person's actions, but I would disagree. What we are given is an example of how not to behave so that the rest of us can benefit by not falling into those pitfalls that this other person has. That doesn't, however, make a difference to the fact that it's these people who are put out there and not someone with a little bit of common sense and intelligence.

That all swings back to the ignorance outsiders have to this fetish. It's safe to say that no community is deprived of such misinformation, that every fetish group has members who are just as uneducated and nescient as those who do not participate in it. Only through proper channels could we conduct such an orchestra of reason and sense into the matter. Nonetheless, for now, as long as we all empathise that there is a lot of hear-say and opinion going around, and that we know that their ignorance is unfounded, then we can sleep easy at night being quite content with having this fetish.
 

avery

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If you know anyone who has accepted this part of you, go give them a hug.
*hugs trevor*

i liked the bit where people were saying she should feel betrayed that her boyfriend waited four years to tell her his secret. based on her reaction (couldn't accept it, didn't even want to think about it) i can't say it's any wonder to me that he waited so long.

personally i don't think there's a human being on the planet who doesn't have something to be ashamed of. that's what being in a long-term relationship is all about -- learning to love one another despite our quirks and imperfections. it sounds like the woman who wrote that letter isn't ready to do that yet.

it's always instructive to step outside one's own worldview and look at things from an outside perspective. woe to the AB who forgets to do that once in a while! :p
 

cpndl

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*hugs trevor*

i liked the bit where people were saying she should feel betrayed that her boyfriend waited four years to tell her his secret. based on her reaction (couldn't accept it, didn't even want to think about it) i can't say it's any wonder to me that he waited so long.

personally i don't think there's a human being on the planet who doesn't have something to be ashamed of. that's what being in a long-term relationship is all about -- learning to love one another despite our quirks and imperfections. it sounds like the woman who wrote that letter isn't ready to do that yet.

it's always instructive to step outside one's own worldview and look at things from an outside perspective. woe to the AB who forgets to do that once in a while! :p
Sounds like my EX-wife. I didn't tell her and she found me out by finding my "stash". She like totally freaked out about the whole thing and pretty much didn't ever want to have anything to do with me again. Her reaction was the exact reason I never told her.

cpndl
 

Sandy0450

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One of the biggest hurdles we have to get over is the 'peadophile' impression. To the average Mr Ignorance Public, diapers = babies = paedohile. End of story. The other big hurdle is society's stigma that any toiletting matter is dirty, filthy and to be shunned.

Nothing could be further from the truth, as we know. Coming out and telling a loved one is a nightmare at the best of times. Nobody's perfect, and we all have skeletons in the closet... so if your partner truly loves you they will accept it as your thing, and at worst have nothing to do with it (but still love you unconditionally). At best they will join in and share it. Whatever the outcome we as AB/DLs also owe it to our 'vanilla' partners to give them time. open honesty and understanding to get their 'heads round it'. ... then respect their decision without further hassle! :)

My $0.02 worth anyway... :)
 

the0silent0alchemist

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well for the toiletting bit.. weve spent several centuries trying to get rid of practices that leave waste arund or promote wste production like this.. its natural to not like that
 

Maverick

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I came across this article during lunch. I see people asking questions like this from time to time, but most often they are sent to people who specialize in sexual question (particularly Dan Savage with Savage Love) or it's in some format that doesn't have reader discussion. The letter writer's question and the professional response are not really the most interesting to me, it's the discussion that follows. Unfortunately, she's covering an array of subjects, so the responses are a mix of those topics. Here's the main article:

Advice on manners and morals (May 29, 2008). - - Slate Magazine

Here's their discussion forum for this article:

Slate -> The Fray -> Dear Prudence

I skimmed most of the responses pertaining to this and be advised, this is not a particularly encouraging look at how people can react to what we're interested in. I do think it's instructive to see the range of responses, though. This site is oriented to adults, so the replies are typically reasonably thoughtful, even when they're extremely negative. For example:



There's a lot of resistance to this. A lot of it is based in ignorance, at least. The potentially difficult part is getting someone to listen long enough to see how it's not really so bad. If you know anyone who has accepted this part of you, go give them a hug.
Horrible, absolutely horrible. But it was expected. Too many people are ignorant in the world. :(
 

kite

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the ab in that story should dump this girl and find someone who loves and accepts all of him.
 

Maverick

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Exactly why the word depresses me so much, well part of the cause.
I'm still trying to figure out whether ignorance is the root of all evil in the world or if Christianity is. :D (No offense to any Christians)
 

Dr_J

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I've witnessed my share of people who despise people like us =\ Including my own parents...they don't know about me, but I remember it was after that particular CSI episode "King Baby" that my parents bashed and ridiculed AB/DL's like crazy, telling me how "disgusting" they were. Imagine having the people who love you for who you are tell you that!

The same has gone with some suitemates at college. Somehow they got talking about infantilism, and of course they all began the whole "those people are sick and twisted, etc"

It hurts sometimes. It really does. On the other hand, I've recently told three close friends of mine (all female....I'm sorry, guys, I feel like women are more understanding of my quark), and all of them have accepted me for me, and they all tell me how admirable I am for openly telling them of my once-considered flaw.

So, I think it's safe to say that most of you are right about society. A lot of people are ignorant, and there are some Christians (I'm a Christian, just not an uber, super-religious one) who also think that this is extremely wrong. However, I see the good in some people, and I'm hoping that someday they can accept the fact that this is a growing community, and it won't stop growing anytime soon!
 

Pojo

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I've witnessed my share of people who despise people like us =\ Including my own parents...they don't know about me, but I remember it was after that particular CSI episode "King Baby" that my parents bashed and ridiculed AB/DL's like crazy, telling me how "disgusting" they were. Imagine having the people who love you for who you are tell you that!

I've never seen that episode...But I've heard about it...I probably would think we are gross if I was as open to things as I am now, but not into diapers...
 

Jeremiah

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The letter to Prudence does not surprise me. "Wiped Out" wrote a letter filled with emotion. She has very little information on this topic and feels betrayed because her boyfriend waited 4 years before telling her. Both of these are clearly in the letter. Is her problem related to ignorance on the topic? I do not think so. She has enough information to be disgusted with the topic and made it clear she wants no more information at this time. What I want to know is the rest of the story. Did he ever try to tell her in the past? Did he already know her opinion of adult diapers? Why did he choose this time to tell her? For this letter, we have the outsider's perspective.

The response is very well written. Prudence did not give an opinion of diapers and focused on the reader. The author provided some further information on the topic, included some good relationship advice, and suggested counseling before making a "rash conclusion." I wish other authors were this professional. In my opinion, this is the best that we can do to get others to accept us. We should answer their questions, show that this is accepted by others, and let them make their own choice.

To properly gain an outsider's perspective, we must look at a topic that we are the outsider looking into the topic. For some, this may be religion, christianity, or homosexuals.

As for religion, those who are not a part of a religion will not truly understand it. There are many religions in our world. Each one is based upon some beliefs. The only problem I have with religion is people. Many religions teach peace and understanding while the followers go out and kill in the name of their religion. Are these not opposites? This is confusing.

For christianity as seen on TV and in the media, many of us cannot comprehend why someone can be so closed minded. Too many people blindly follow what others say and will not listen to logic, reason, or facts. In the time period of 1200AD-1700AD, Europe was heavily influenced by "christian" institutions. Galileo Galilei was persecuted by the Catholic Church because he said that the earth was not the center of the universe. To this day, people hide their personal beliefs and agendas behind christianity. I am a Christian and believe the Bible as the word of God. The meaning of "Christian" is Christ-like. The Bible, in John 3:16, says "For God so loved the world..." Anyone using the name of Jesus Christ to spread hate is not very Christ-like. I cringe every time someone uses my religion to justify their evil activities.

For homosexuality, I am an outsider. Growing up, marriage to me has always been between a man and a woman. At no time in my life have I ever considered anything else for me. A homosexual and I will always have opposite opinions of such activities. How can we agree? Simple, we won't. Who is wrong? Depends on which one of us you ask! Can we ever be friends? Yes, as long as we can agree to disagree on this issue and not force our opinion on the other one.

In summary, I think that anyone who is not a *B/DL cannot fully understand us. They do not see our thoughts or feel our urges. People are closed minded. Everywhere you look, there is a closed minded person there. Even we are plagued by closed minded thoughts. Each one of us has an opinion on some topic that we will not change. The only way to over come this is by helping them accept us for who we are.



One final thought.
I'm still trying to figure out whether ignorance is the root of all evil in the world or if Christianity is. :D (No offense to any Christians)
I am not sure where this comment came from, but I would happy to discuss the root of evil elsewhere. Feel free to create a thread in the mature forum or PM me.
 

avery

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For homosexuality, I am an outsider. Growing up, marriage to me has always been between a man and a woman. At no time in my life have I ever considered anything else for me. A homosexual and I will always have opposite opinions of such activities. How can we agree? Simple, we won't. Who is wrong? Depends on which one of us you ask! Can we ever be friends? Yes, as long as we can agree to disagree on this issue and not force our opinion on the other one.

In summary, I think that anyone who is not a *B/DL cannot fully understand us. They do not see our thoughts or feel our urges. People are closed minded. Everywhere you look, there is a closed minded person there. Even we are plagued by closed minded thoughts. Each one of us has an opinion on some topic that we will not change. The only way to over come this is by helping them accept us for who we are.
the fact that everyone is closed-minded about some things doesn't mean we're excused from our obligation to try to keep an open mind.

that's basically like saying "i saw that guy stealing stuff, so it must be alright for me to steal stuff." what a cop-out! you can't use another person's moral failings to justify your own intolerance.
 

Jeremiah

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what a cop-out! you can't use another person's moral failings to justify your own intolerance.
I am sorry if you got this impression. Can you explain how you came to this conclusion? Have I ever said anything to indicate that I am intolerant of others?


The point that I was trying to make was that opinions often are opposite. No matter how open minded we are, somewhere in our mind is an opinion that is concreted into place (closed). The only way to overcome this is to be accept that people are different and tolerate those differences.

The topics that I used for my examples were picked simply because of how universally dividing those topics are. The quickest way to create another intolerant bigot is to try forcing someone to change their opinion. For a least one of these topics, I am quite certain that everyone here has been subjected to someone trying to force their opinion upon others.

No matter what topic you choose, the outsider's perspective will be the same. I repeat:
In summary, I think that anyone who is not a *B/DL cannot fully understand us. People are closed minded. Everywhere you look, there is a closed minded person there. Even we are plagued by closed minded thoughts. Each one of us has an opinion on some topic that we will not change. The only way to over come this is by helping them accept us for who we are.
Our focus to be accepted should not be their ignorance, lack of understanding, or their wrong opinion. This is counter productive. Direct attacks will only further entrench their position. Only through positive exposure will outsiders be desensitized to our activities. As people hear about others accepting us *B/DLs, we can only hope that they will be more open minded on the issue and learn to accept us as we are.
 

Izzy

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I remember when I shaking in fear as I told my friends at uni.
Though everybody has taken it well, I'm still not open at all with it.
 
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I suppose this is semi wrong place to post this since Im an Tb and not an Ab yet but somedays ago I told my best friend about me being a TB and he was very accepting and even thought it would be something worse first. though he didnt like the idea of doing some gross things like doing nr.2 but I understand it, I dont think I like that either. but yeah I guess he had a pretty good Perspective on it when he said he could buy a pack of Dry/Goodnites for me sometime or that I could order things to his place!
 

ade

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does it never occur to people that what 'we' do is somehow wrong; that the 'ignorant' and 'closed-minded' are behaving correctly, in terms of the continuance of civilization and the species?
(and the above can apply to anyone who differs from the norm).

no matter how you look at things, when scrutinized closely and with an overview, the behaviour of the 'ignorant' and closed-minded', while being carried out by individuals who often are ignorant and closed-minded, is usually in the service of the greater good.
and even more, what 'we' would often like to call ignorance and closed-mindedness could equally be referred to as resolved and focused.
 
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dogboy

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I am always conflicted with my Christian faith, and who I am. I do feel that I did not choose my quirks, but have to find a way to live with them, and a way to live in society, even if I am not responsible for being who I am. I am responsible to others, however. If I acted on all of my impulses, I would be in jail, so I, like most everyone else, conform. And like Lukie says, we have a responsibility to our community as to how we are perceived. If we want to be modestly accepted, we need to act reasonably.

As many of you know, I confessed only a few month ago to my wife, when she discovered my diaper order on line. She was very loving and understanding about it, but then I knew who I was marrying those many years ago. I never told her of my second life because I was very ashamed of it. This site has helped to liberate me, and bring me to self acceptance after these many years of self guilt. If you can accept yourself, others can't hurt you as much. Personally, I think God is a lot more forgiving than we give him credit. After all, David sent his best friend to his death in battle, so that he could have sex with his friends wife, and God still forgave him. Diapers are so,so much less.
 

conspiracyofhope

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I'm still trying to figure out whether ignorance is the root of all evil in the world or if Christianity is. :D (No offense to any Christians)
It is ignorant to suggest that christianity is the root of all evil, as it is to suggest that it is the root of none. Anything can be corrupted.
 
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