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On the VIP system and trust

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DannyTheNinja

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A quick note: I'm taking my staff member hat off for this thread. This is in no way a representation of the collective thoughts of the ADISC management or staff; it's my personal opinion. The purple username means nothing for the purposes of this thread.

People have been wondering a lot about who is trustworthy on ADISC for a while now, and this is my shot at getting an answer on that together. Bear with me, this will be a little bit long.

ADISC has been around since 2003. When it started, it was comprised of about 21 people coming from another network out of dissatisfaction and the desire to create a better community. It blossomed into TBDL, which went on for give-or-take 5 years. We lost the site in a server crash, but Moo decided to make the best of the situation and expand the vision of TBDL into a community designed to reach out to a wider age range. ADISC was born, and grew beyond what anyone - even Moo himself - could have expected.

We had a lot of people come in. Some have stuck with us and become highly respected members. Others saw that ADISC didn't fit what they were looking for and left. Still others have been swiftly kicked out by our moderation team for trying to penetrate into a community where everyone should be trustworthy.

What defines trust? Trust is a relationship formed based on shared values, experiences, and communication. It is a bond between two or more people who are willing to share privileges between each other because they have a belief that nobody in the group will betray the others.

This is what the ADISC VIP system was formerly built on. Even though the system was based on reputation, we were able to use it to define who was and wasn't a VIP. People would receive rep due to those points above - shared values, experiences, and communication. You would get +rep for making a deeply philosophical post about the emotional or sexual aspects of diaper fetishism, or for being exceptionally mature in pointing out and helping to correct somebody's mistake. I got a rep recently based on the "cool factor" of this thread. While I think diaper stuffing is a very cool thing, does it reflect shared values, experiences, and/or communication, the elements that build trust? Maybe shared values or experiences, but both are arguably displayed pretty weakly in that post of mine, seeing as it was merely a how-to on making adult diapers work better. It was based on facts and instructions, not analysis and expression of beliefs.

It should be obvious that what I keep getting at is the topic in the back of my mind which is now being brought up front and center: the gallery image leak. A member of ours decided to betray the trust we expressed for him by exposing information we considered private to the public Internet. How did he gain this trust; what exactly was done that gave him the ability to betray us?

I think the problem with our entire VIP system is that we expect it to be built on trust, while we allow members to progress towards VIPdom based on being funny, smart, or cool. Guys and gals, this is what needs to change to bring the trustworthiness back to ADISC: give rep to people who you think deserve to be VIPs, based on their behavior, ideology, and openness. The point of being a VIP is that you have to prove yourself as a round character, a person with depth and breadth that only a minority of people express.

On the flip side, when should negative reputation be given? I think it's obvious here: if ADISC is supposed to be a community full of people who have more to them than the diapers on their crotches, we should go back to kicking out people who are not like this. If someone is clearly all about the diapers and here exclusively for diaper-related discussion, they're not the addition we want to ADISC. Building on the kettle of soup analogy that I love to allude to, these people bring broth to the kettle but with no spices or fresh veggies. We can handle one or two, but eventually all that broth makes the soup bland and uninteresting.

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sick of being too nice. We accept anybody and feed them with rep for the dumbest (5pts) little (2) things (1), and before long they end up like redtails: betraying us because we trusted them for being witty or funny, not for showing appreciation for the core values that ADISC members have always had. It's called reputation for a reason. It's not something that people should spend their time pissing about. It should be an indicator of a person's character. I hope my post has adequately explained how we should go about doing this.

But wait. Watered down, doesn't this just mean "give rep for being just like everyone else on ADISC"? No. My new rep criteria, below, are designed to respect personal opinions and allow diversity while tightening the boundaries that people must stay within and encouraging people who really are trustworthy to go ahead and make statements that strengthen those three elements of trust. One might do this by sharing a personal experience, even if watered down a bit (communication); expressing something they believe that is shared among many people on ADISC, for example, being mature and modest in public (shared values); and participating in ADISC's more social activities, like IRC or blogs (experiences).

We still have our core values, guys. We just have to start holding other people to that standard. Based on the points here, I want to make a suggestion to change the criteria for giving rep:

  • Give positive rep for:
    • Insight
    • Well-thought out arguments
    • Mature behavior or handling
    • Exemplifying involvement in the community
    • Exceptionally positive participation in another area like IRC or the wiki
  • Give negative rep for:
    • Being derogatory, overly harsh, closed-minded
    • Phrases associated with chan sites, depending how often this behavior occurs
    • Showing disrespect to other members (do not give extra negative rep if being disrespectful to staff)
    • Baby talk, cliché questions, or immaturity
    • Deeker stories or perverted behavior
  • Give neutral or no rep for:
    • Funny or witty posts
    • Cool ideas
    • Good (or bad!) stories
  • Report a post for:
    • Consistent chan-site behavior
    • Disregard for rules or site policy
    • Encouragement of dangerous/illegal activity
    • Threats, extreme disrespect, porn, spam, viruses, etc.
This would work best if we made an announcement asking members to please consider these points when giving out rep, as well as changing the text on the "give rep" popup. Personally, I think our rep system can be fixed without making any technical changes at all. Since our rank system is entirely people-powered, do you guys think that asking the people to change their behavior can make an impact on our system? I do.

--Danny :ninja:
 

Charlie

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I completely disagree. :p

Short and sweet:
You can't make a system for a trustworthy group. VIP should be what is has always been, a measure of who is a good contributor and who isn't.
I think trustworthiness should be removed from the idea of VIP by removing the VIP gallery and maybe other things.
 
B

Butterfly Mage

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I agree with Charlie: Trust is up to the individual to determine. Trust has various levels as well (I trust you with $5. I trust you to borrow my car and bring it back. Those are two very different levels of trust). You can quante funny/useful/unfunny/stupid via the REP system, but you can't quantize trust.
 

Darkfinn

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I'm with Charlie as well. VIP ≠ trust

Trust needs to be based off of experience... not the opinion of the masses.

VIP is simply a popularity contest.
 
A

aj1983

Guest
Almost everyday since I've came back here there is a thread complaining about the VIP or the Rep system. I still don't get the point of it other then as a popularity contest or to make others feel left out and excluded. Seems all rather silly and elitist to me :tongueout:.

...on the other hand, it is funny to watch people like 80+ rep points panic when they lose one or two, lol.
 

Darkfinn

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Almost everyday since I've came back here there is a thread complaining about the VIP or the Rep system. I still don't get the point of it other then as a popularity contest or to make others feel left out and excluded. Seems all rather silly and elitist to me :tongueout:.

Precisely.

Which is why I am still for a complete elimination of the rep system. It causes more problems than it solves.

Does anyone really "look up to" VIPs because they are VIPs? Or is it because some of these people have a reputation and image in the AB/DL community as a whole?
 

Fire2box

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Precisely.

Which is why I am still for a complete elimination of the rep system. It causes more problems than it solves.

Does anyone really "look up to" VIPs because they are VIPs? Or is it because some of these people have a reputation and image in the AB/DL community as a whole?
Frankly I don't care who's VIP since it has no effect on me. I don't base who I like/look up to as a good member on being VIP or not.
 

2low

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Good point , there is no such real use for it other then make people try and cause more problems just to get some or ect
 
B

Butterfly Mage

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I tend to view the REP system as a very effective anti-bullying measure. It's easy to attack someone from a position of anonymity. Having to possibility of receiving negative REP (and possible suspension/banning) serves to keep things civil.
 

Fire2box

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I tend to view the REP system as a very effective anti-bullying measure. It's easy to attack someone from a position of anonymity. Having to possibility of receiving negative REP (and possible suspension/banning) serves to keep things civil.
Unless someone actually doesn't care about it. It's just like the death penalty, it doesn't stop everyone.
 

Peachy

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Danny is trying to point out how the rep system is supposed to work and how people should use their ability to give reputation, and of course the usual people chime in and argue about the abolition of the rep system. Can't you make your own threat about that? Seriously, it becomes repetitive! The decision whether or not to have a rep system at all has nothing to do with how people should use the rep system as long as it does exist.

Peachy
 

Hex

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[font="Calibri,Arial"]Although by and large Im not participating in these make Adisc better threads as I feel it's fine, I will add two points to this.

1. From what Ive seen users rep users with lots of rep more. it's why there's loads of people at 20-30, and a good few at 80+ but not much in between.

2. Danny, your a mod. This means you have a boost to people wanting to rep you anyway, and the plus rep in the hopes of being plus repped back crowd will target you as mods can give +3s.[/font]
 

Mesmerale

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La de da...

Just wanna point something out. :)

Where'd I see that.. Oh! Here it is. :D

The Rules said:
4. are exceptionally funny
Yeah, I shortened the quote a lot...

Basically, I'm pointing out the that rules even say that positive rep is warranted for very funny things.

Just saying. :)
 

recovery

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Yes, I'm with Peachy. I think you missed the point on that the rep system isn't being as used as it's suppose to be.

And I agree with Danny in that the rep system isn't used correctly and was mainly used for those that had the reputation for being sensible and level-headed. Sure you've got those load-mouths in class that crack jokes that even I laugh at. But I don't think they have a reputation for self control or discipline. I wouldn't necessarily ask them to look after my stuff. Like looking after my Pics in the Gallery for this example.

When the secret requirement was brought in, I felt it was brought in to help demote those controversial VIPs. That have +10 rep but was seem cautious to the group. OR at least me. The system isn't perfect, and all the ideas I had of thinking what the rep system was, was based around it. But it was just as imperfect. The only real way of fixing it, is to teach the members of it's proper uses.

At the end of the day, It's upsetting to see that VIP is no longer *that* important as very. But we can still trust people and a 1 to 1 basis.and let the members hand pick who they trust and talk to them outside of the public fourms and IRC.
 

dogboy

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When I first came on a little over a year ago, contributing "funny" material was sought after. I noticed that those who were funny, did have their rep count grow. I would say in the past 6 months, I have seen almost an antithesis toward humor on this site. Part of it may be that we all have different kinds of humor. I know I have been called on mine at least twice. As everyone knows, I tend to write satire which sometimes gets interpreted as sarcastic, and maybe it is to some degree. Anyway, I think that something that is funny, clever and well written should at least be accepted positively. I'm not saying that mine is, but I have seen others' though not in a long time. It's as if members are afraid to be themselves, expressing themselves as they want.

I don't go to 4chan sites and in fact, I don't even know what they are. I know we had one member who must have been using a lot of material from there, he received a large number of positive reps, and then he disappeared from the site. What I'm saying is that I as a member, I have received so much mixed information as to what is acceptable and what isn't that at this point, I have no idea. I think I know when I have been inappropriate, but I think that sometimes I find different reasons for that than the mods dol

I have also noticed a trend to unfriendliness on this site. I suppose part of that is because of the growing size of the site, but I have seen it most keenly in the moderators. Kraiden was not the only one burning out. I have seen some mods throwing out the F word in responses, others have just been very negative. I think they are over worked and over stressed by the site. As just a site member, I see the site for what it is, a site where we can have input. That input is going to take different forms depending on the thread, the mood, and the time of night.

As threads differ, so will the posts/responses. I think there is a place for diversity. Some may be caring, nurturing and helpful. Others will be funny and entertaining. I don't have a problem with either. I would suggest that we are taking ourselves too seriously except that there are those times when members, some of them young, are in a tough situation and seeking very serious help. For those members, we need to be at our very best. It can sometimes be a fine line between truth and fiction, but because people can be in pain, we need to be good listeners.

At the same time, I often come to this site for relaxation, and a break from my real world, one that is filled with pain, sickness and hospitals. There may be times that I cross the lines of acceptable ADISC behavior, and for that I am sorry. At the same time I am just a guy sitting in my house with my own set of hopes, dreams, joys, fears, and pain. If I make a mistake, I hope that I would be treated with the same kind of kindness that a 16 year old might be treated.

I believe that Danny has spelled out well those qualities that might define the best of us. I would add humor to them. When things are at their worst, humor has been the antidote. I remember a Political Science professor of mine who said that during the Nazi occupation of France, when things were at the very worst for the French, they were able to make jokes about it. It was all they had until the invasion of Normandy.

I'm afraid for all the good intentions of members like Dannythe Ninja, we will always have new members who won't read the starters and Wikis, and older members who will forget, not care, or just have a bad day. The rest of us should be mindful enough to respond in the best most positive way that we can, being helpful and friendly at the same time. I would hope that the moderators would do the same. When they took the role as moderator to a site that portends to be friendly, shouldn't they set that example of friendliness to their own established members?
 

Aki

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I'm with Charlie as well. VIP ≠ trust

Trust needs to be based off of experience... not the opinion of the masses.

VIP is simply a popularity contest.
Going off that, we have no need for the VIP forum anymore. ADISC has grown into something too large to ensure that the VIP forum warrants a higher level of trust.

Back in the days of TBDL, there were a -lot- less people. Getting into the VIP forum was a mark of showing that you are dedicated to the site, thus you should be granted a higher level of trust. We didn't have to worry as much about things like pedos trying to get into the VIP gallery, chan-trolls, etc. because TBDL was for the most part, unknown. (I think deeker linking to us when we became ADISC has had a -huge- impact on what everything turned out to be.)


It's a nice thing to have, sure.
But it doesn't mean anything anymore.

Let's use Maplestory for an example.
People judge who you are based on whether you have in-game equipment or equipment bought by Nexon Cash.
But that doesn't say who you are. It just shows that you've spent a lot of time in the game.

Our VIP forum used to hold status, but something changed.
We became bigger, I guess. But it changed. And it doesn't hold the same weight anymore. I think its usefulness has about run its course.

ALSO: This is not to say reputation has run its course. Indeed, I think it's pretty much vital to have it. But having the VIP forum there as an incentive makes it seem like a game rather than trying to prove your status. Like a challenge you have to beat. Rep isn't meant for that.

I dunno. Someone else run through with my ideas. I'm not sure where to go from this.
 

DannyTheNinja

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TL;DR version:

VIPness right now isn't about trust because of the way we give out rep. If we changed the way we gave out rep so that it was based more on factors that can indicate a person's trustworthiness, the VIP/trust relationship will become stronger.

The VIP rank and associated privileges won't ever be impenetrable, but I think humans have more control over it than any technical change, and we have a responsibility to make VIPdom an indication of probable trustworthiness, like it used to be.

--Danny :ninja:
 

Charlie

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Do we want that though?

I'd prefer to have a VIP group that recognised good contributors, than one that was for trustworthy people.
 

NEJay

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Like Charlie and others have said... There is almost no way to truly trust anyone online.

I also disagree with this...

I got a rep recently based on the "cool factor" of this thread. While I think diaper stuffing is a very cool thing, does it reflect shared values, experiences, and/or communication, the elements that build trust? Maybe shared values or experiences, but both are arguably displayed pretty weakly in that post of mine, seeing as it was merely a how-to on making adult diapers work better. It was based on facts and instructions, not analysis and expression of beliefs.
You posting this was a literal revelation in diaper wearing for me. I hadn't seen Pamperchu's video before, and never thought about putting a stuffer inside another diaper. You are definitely worthy of positive reputation points for sharing that with us.

We're all here because we share a common theme, that we enjoy wearing diapers (or ageplay, or regression, etc.), and what you shared was of benefit to your audience. For me, it was an amazing idea, and I took with it and ran... I used an old food processor yesterday to chop up the padding from four size 7 diapers and inserted it into an Attends.

It was quite possibly the best diaper I've ever worn. And I've worn plenty. I wouldn't have thought of it if you hadn't posted that thread.

Web forums do not have to be a social rat race. Personally, I'd like to see the VIP system gone, and just have a rep system so newcomers know who are the people are that are "pillars of the community" per se... Those that give unbiased, beneficial contributions to all of us as a whole, on a consistent basis.
 
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