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modest proposal

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Raccoon

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This is to supplement Corri_aka_Drew's thread, "How To Improve."

During my most recent absence, and since I've been back there's been much drama (most of which I did not witness) and much discussion of said drama (witnessed.)

Many people of high renown have left or are discussing leaving: for personal reasons, or due to a perception ADISC has gone downhill. The chief complaints appear to revolve around a feeling that we are overwhelmed by newbies, that the site has turned unfriendly, or that high post, high rep members - VIP'S in particular - are elitist and intolerant, or at least unwelcoming, especially to newbies.

The upshot is that there has been all manner of drama, including insults to the site, admin & other members, staged emotional exits & account deletions, and bemoaning the newbies or the VIP'S - not to mention dramatic discussion of the drama itself.

There has been finger-pointing at those parties, and at the rep & ranking systems.

Solutions have included admonitions to be nicer & useful instructions on how to do so; or to simply to keep plugging away at making good posts; or to modify or eliminate the rep & ranking systems. These may improve the site but won't address fully the deeper situation: that we can fiddle with the structure all we like, but for better or worse, the influx of newbies will not slow down, and the resulting feelings of among them and the VIP'S might not be resolvable. With 1200-odd active members, and 5000 accounts, the site will grow less and less amenable to all concerned; the instances of a single set of rules applying unfairly or inequitably or pissing off individuals (rationally or not) will grow more numerous as time goes on.

This was inevitable, even without Moo's marketing efforts; we would always have had a stream of newbies; of late there has simply been a jump in their numbers and the rate of influx. Perhaps if the rate was lower they could have been absorbed, without discontinuities in moral and the exit-rate, say, because more personal attention could have been given to each newbie. No matter; we have what we have, and must adapt somehow.

I propose:

Now may be the time to create a new, separate, companion site: ADISC 2, for the disgruntled VIP'S. Danny proved he has the means, and certainly Moo does. (And some others, maybe Martin or RJ.) Danny not only created the interim site, but showed he knew how to run it.

The new site would be for high post, high rep individuals; permission to join based on a similar system to the present VIP system (with different stats). I think invitation only would be problematic, this really would foster elitism, and too many eligibles would be overlooked. Joining by approved application would have the same effect, plus many potentials would not bother to apply, not knowing much about the "walled city." Automatic approval based on ADISC stats has a number of virtues: security vetting has (long since) been done, an open club is non-discriminatory, and some new site appearing is inevitable; better to control the process than simply let it happen - and modding ADISC 2 would be very very simple; I know of one competent mod who is no longer happy to stay here.

This would be a new home for disgruntled VIP'S, those who have already left, those who are talking about it or thinking about it, and those who would simply like to hang out among "their own."

Arguments against would include divisiveness: I would counter that the nature of the internet allows one be in two sites simultaneously; ADISC 2 would not so much draw off members from ADISC 1, but supplement it. There would off course be "diplomatic relations" between the two sites; posts, images, other content are portable, as are members (I mean "have gun, will travel.") (portable members, hee hee)

Another counter-argument is anti-elitism: some people will resent even the existence of a site for VIP'S, let alone its being condoned and encouraged. I argue that along with the being-in-two-places argument, one might possibly be in the two places simultaneously: with a (possibly automated) copy/paste feature for content. But if such a site could bring our lost sheep back into the fold, it would be worth it. (Raccoons have abandonment issues.) I think folks would not mind a second site as much as they might resent a super-VIP forum here, what with the current complaints over VIP'S.

I have speculated that the issues ADISC faces may not be blamable on Moo's management (or mismanagement, if you prefer) of ADISC, or too many newbies, or snobby VIP'S or huffy temperamental oldsters - but may be endemic to the size and rate of growth of ADISC. In this case, no amount of fiddling will work; a new site with a different character is needed. Assuming this development is inevitable, it would be far better to have the sites develop cooperatively than in competition. They would be bound to differ in nature as well as size and scope, and grow along different paths; this is all to the good, imho. (I am led to think of the Vatican City, the city-state within Italy.) We may face a non ADISCer setting up a rival site independently, down the road, with adverse effects to our own, such as competing for members; while this can't (nor should) be prevented, it could be staved off a while, especially while we are in a state of social upheaval and rapid expansion.

There is a security argument to be made. For one thing, ADISC 2 would be a bulwark against raids by 4chan, SomethingAwful, and the like, with mutual protection; not to mention server failure. ADISC 2 could archive ADISC 1. We have not had serious insider attacks; but in that event ADISC 2 would enjoy greater protection than ADISC 1, being full of mods and techs, and people with a track-record of good deeds and intentions, and no unproven members, who might possibly be moles. There is potential to cause great harm within ADISC just using the tools available to any regular, stuff that would cause massive headaches to the admin.
- let alone what a tech could get up to.

I believe it may well be time for ADISC to reproduce. On with the budding!




 
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Hex

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[font="Calibri,Arial"]So basically you want to move the VIP forum offsite altogether because some vips won't play nice? Terrible idea which will widen the gap between VIPs and newbies even more and encourage the stuck up attitudes.[/font]
 

Rissy

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Didn't I already suggest something like that... ADISC 2 is stupid though... Some renown member who wants to leave really just needs to make their own version...
 

Raccoon

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[font="Calibri,Arial"]So basically you want to move the VIP forum offsite altogether because some vips won't play nice? Terrible idea which will widen the gap between VIPs and newbies even more and encourage the stuck up attitudes.[/font]
No, no. I want to see there is room for all. I repeat: we can be in two places at once. There are numerous other abdl sites already; I am talking about one more. I don't want to remove our VIP'S - just give a home to the ones who are leaving anyway. That way the ones remaining are the ones who will be happy here, who are the ones who will contribute most to others' happiness.

If I felt yet another forum or sub-forum or social division within ADISC would work I would have said so.

Didn't I already suggest something like that... ADISC 2 is stupid though... Some renown member who wants to leave really just needs to make their own version...
If you suggested something like that I would like to read it: please link to it. And I covered disgruntled departed members making their own version.

If ADISC 2 is stupid, please explain. I am very serious about this idea and am very interested indeed in arguments both for and against.
 

Peachy

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Splitting the memberbase is not a good idea. As Dreamaker pointed out somewhere, small communities without growth are bound to die because it's inevitable that people get bored or busy with RL issues or leave over some drama. So an ADISC 2 is bound to die, unless you turn into a direct competitor. But why would we compete with ourselves?
Plus who gets into ADISC 2? Invite-only? Certain amount of rep/posts/time on ADISC 1? It's just the VIP system running under a different name and on a different server. It's pointless, in my opinion. If people don't to deal with the newbies, they're welcome to not look into the forums where newbies go.

Peachy
 
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Segregation. Bad. Do not want. If anything like what you're proposing came to fruition, I would leave.


Okay, let me just level it with everyone now. Seriously, get the fuck over this. This idea is only bound to compound the problem, not help ease it. Remember - if you've dug yourself into a hole, don't keep digging to get yourself out. Similarly, don't keep fuelling the problem by introducing things that could have caused it in the first place.

Fuckssakes, you give people an inch and they take a mile. You people are demonstrating that very well here. Stop blowing smoke up each other's asses, you're starting to remind me of pretentious upper management.
 

Raccoon

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So we just let people drift away? Yes it is the VIP system on a different server, maybe with more stringent ADISC 1-based stats; I honestly don't feel VIP is very very hard to get, nor do I feel, as some do, that it denotes too too much in the way of power or prestige. My main points are security, a place for disenchanted members, the archiving.

I don't see that it would split the member base except for the ones who are leaving anyway. If it died it died; where is the harm in the experiment?
 

Rissy

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Because it'll still be Moo's forum...
I mean it's obvious if people leave this forum to go to a new forum, that it's like an ADISC 2... But realistically, this idea would only work if someone decided they wanted to make a new forum and they were popular enough to have people follow them.

Most of the reason it's not ADISC 2 is because disgruntled members don't want to go to a Support Community, They just wanna chat about whatever, and be allowed to be bitches to dodgy potential members so they shape up... So, you've lost the SC and ADI is pointless... Anyway, the name really ought to be decided by the person who volunteers to make the new forum. ADSIC is a practical name, but it's boring and un-creative.
 

Raccoon

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Segregation. Bad. Do not want. If anything like what you're proposing came to fruition, I would leave.


Okay, let me just level it with everyone now. Seriously, get the fuck over this. This idea is only bound to compound the problem, not help ease it. Remember - if you've dug yourself into a hole, don't keep digging to get yourself out. Similarly, don't keep fuelling the problem by introducing things that could have caused it in the first place.

Fuckssakes, you give people an inch and they take a mile. You people are demonstrating that very well here. Stop blowing smoke up each other's asses, you're starting to remind me of pretentious upper management.
Dear oh dear. Drama from Lukie. No offence taken. This would be one-way segregation. Not two-way. There would be no discernible difference to ADISC 1; and you yourself would certainly be admitted, and could check out the goings-on yourself. The only difference there would be is that some people might split their attention.

Um... deep in the hole, one tunnels parallel to the ground then upwards: presto: new hole! That connects!

Now why would you quit? The existence of an alternative? Because some of the people not on ADISC prefer not to be on ADISC? Because it would be called ADISC 2? Would it help if it were called Diaperboyzz or abdl_OLD_GUARD?
 
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I'd quit because it's something I don't ever want to see on this forum. If people are more concerned about forming their own exclusive groups than they are getting involved and sharing with the entire community, then this place will no longer hold any intrinsic value.
 

ajsco

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Sorry to piss on your fire but -this is the most stupid, ridiculous idea I have yet seen on these forums. You may want all newbies or people with not much rep (like myself) to fuck off out of the forum, leaving just the original members.

Your solution will not work - there won't be many people on it and then you shall complain about there not being any posts - then you will just end up leaving. Even if I were a High repping, high posting individual I would still not want this.

Then say over time I get to vip status, 1000+ posts ect. Will I be allowed into your 'exclusive club'. No. Why? Because 'I will rip apart your community' 'not part of the original crew'. You want an exclusive site for you high ranking members, at that not everyone will join. You will get bored of it, then you shall have wasted your time on a fruitless endevour.
 

Rissy

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The heart of your idea is silly though... People shouldn't graduate to the next forum... People who aren't satisfied just need to leave and make there own.

Peachy and such, bitches a lot about people leaving dissatisfied when they should be helping make ADISC better, but they're not happy with methods, and as Moo's forum, everyone has to follow HIS methods. The fact is that plenty of people here don't want to dedicate themselves to supporting others, they come here to socialise with intelligent ABDLs... People need a site for socialising, rather than trying to have that in something that decided to be a support site instead.
 
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Butterfly Mage

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I'm rarely this blunt, but I have to say it: this idea sounds like more elitist crap. "Let's make a secondary ADISC so VIPs don't ever have to watch newbies trip over their shoe laces." After all, it's much easier to exclude new people than help them to integrate into a larger community. The latter takes some actual effort and a willingness to do community building rather than just making more exclusionary cliques.
 

Rissy

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But it IS a good idea to make all the people bitching about it go to a new forum instead... ADISC 2 isn't a good idea... But having the people sulking about how ADISC has changed really should f*** off elsewhere... Minor complaints that are relevant to Moo's agenda are worth raising. Being sulky over it having so many newbies isn't worth raising and the solution is to leave. Do you really expect Moo to delete all the new accounts and allow people to be bitchy at others again? Follow Moo's wisdom, or start you're own agenda elsewhere...
 

Raccoon

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Sorry to piss on your fire but -this is the most stupid, ridiculous idea I have yet seen on these forums.
Fair enough

You may want all newbies or people with not much rep (like myself) to fuck off out of the forum, leaving just the original members.
How do you work that out? I am not among the VIP'S complaining about newbies; this phenomenon took me by surprise. I think it is a bad phenomenon, and I am interested in getting to the causes of it, and providing possible solutions, beyond an emphasis on what is already site policy. Read my posts to learn how I feel about these things. Though my presence on ADISC has been spotty for a few months, if you go back you'll find I spent quite a bit of time in the intro forum... (As stated elsewhere and recently) I am not looking to see people go but trying to find ways to have others stay...
Your solution will not work - there won't be many people on it and then you shall complain about there not being any posts - then you will just end up leaving.
Now, see, this is what I approve of: actual reasons my idea might fizzle, rather than mere negativity and harsh language. No, there won't be many on it. Most people would rather just stay here than be in two ADISCS at once. ADISC 2 would be for the folks who didn't want to be here - for whatever reason - but wanted to be in a similar environment. No, I would not end up leaving for the lack of posts. For one thing I would have buddies there as well as here; for another, if the experiment failed ADISC 2 could simply be shut down, or even folded back into ADISC 1, with no harm done. The internet is not a zero-sum game: more members elsewhere does not mean fewer here.

Even if I were a High repping, high posting individual I would still not want this.
Why not? You could simply stay here, if that's your druthers. Or inhabit both places. Or have a different one to go to if you ever soured on the present site.

Then say over time I get to vip status, 1000+ posts ect. Will I be allowed into your 'exclusive club'. No. Why? Because 'I will rip apart your community' 'not part of the original crew'. You want an exclusive site for you high ranking members, at that not everyone will join. You will get bored of it, then you shall have wasted your time on a fruitless endevour.
By definition, you would be allowed in; unless you mean "rip apart" literally; the usual rules about drama, and willful destruction would apply. Why would you want to damage another site? If by "rip apart" you mean criticize, then of course you would be welcome to air your views - but why do you think there would be anything to criticize? You would find pleasant blue and brown-fonted people, maybe some pink-fonted ones, and all manner of interesting people saying interesting things: some you haven't even met yet.

Besides, there would be all sorts of people who know how to handle themselves, and handle naughty impish types intent on no good.

But that is not really the point. By the time you got there - if you chose - you would be absolutely on par with everybody else, and certainly not looked down on.

'not part of the original crew'? You are already part of the original crew. This idea is not just for those who qualify right now, but for all who become eligible. True not everyone will join; but as long as there was a critical mass to make the site viable, both sites would truck along just fine. Bored of it? Perhaps; on the other hand it might be one more cool place on the internet. Waste of time? It is my time to waste. Are you concerned that I won't be spending quite as much time here? Would you feel cheated on?

Fruitless endeavour? An experiment with no harm to ADISC, that might benefit it by reducing drama, providing added security, and be a home to people needing one?

Do you resent that it takes time, posts, and rep to go from regular to VIP to mod? Is my idea any different? If so please explain...
 
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Fact of the matter is, the VIP forum here is dead (recently is an exception, as all the new threads on there relate to all the shit that's been happening), and you want to dedicate a whole 'nother forum to VIPs? Sorry, but I feel that from the onset it's doomed to fail.

Both systems work in the same manner, in that they both extend the opportunity for anyone to be a part of it. As a prime working example, our own VIP Board is riddled with inactivity and not even all of the threads on there are of a personal nature anyway. Hell, the only good activity it's seen in weeks is that "Welcome New VIPs" thread.

I just don't think that translating it elsewhere is going to make much of a difference; the true definition of insanity is persistently repeating the same experiment and expecting different results. I'm not misunderstanding you, not misconstruing your ideas, nor am I filled with hate, fear or hypocrisy about the concept - but I do believe that implementing something like this at this point in time is just... well... put bluntly, poor timing.

I've never repped someone for one idea and been utterly discontent about another in the same day. Congrats on that.
 

Moo

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I'm not doing it, for all the reasons listed above.
 
Y

Yumi

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That idea... Makes me think of one word for people: Snob.

Mhm. "We're better than you, so we'll leave where we can be with people with more upper class. Hazah. Look at me, watch me as I leave. You won't have anything this great ever again on ADISC. After all, we're so much better than you." That idea comes to mind with this issues. Though, most of the VIPS are far more mature than to act in such a way. The idea makes you look like snobs, and with that idea, I imagine the quote above... (Even if it is a tad exaggerated).

This brings me to a recent chat.
<Shodai> If it's not rep it's join dates.
<Shodai> If it isn't join dates it's postcounts.
<Shodai> stfu complaining.
<Tyrlova> If it isn't that it's "My avvie is better than yours!".
(Note: The final comment made by Tyrlova, we also agreed that wasn't true, and he said he was joking. So, don't take the last post seriously.)

Yes, it was a comment made by Shodai, or "Priest". However, it holds a lot of truth, and many of us agreed with him. :S (Many of us being most of the people who were actively talking at that time.)

I don't really care what you do. If you want to be snobs, go ahead. Be snobs. :/ And then, when you get bored, or it fails over there, just come back here. You'll see what a waste of time it was. XD It's sort of funny.
 

avery

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if i joined a site like that there would inevitably be lots of really cool people who i'd want to talk to who wouldn't join or wouldn't be eligible. a lot of the newer members of this site are really awesome people.

and for the ones who aren't so awesome, they need the older members of the site around to serve as role-models and teach them how to behave tactfully within this sort of community. one of the best things about ADISC is that it serves to counteract the crudity that exists within the wider AB/DL community by acting as a model of polite, sensible interaction. if DPF-ish newer members had no one to demonstrate to them that we behave differently on ADISC, they'd have no reason to change their behavior.
 
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Butterfly Mage

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That cracks me up that some people think someone's value in this forum can be judged by their joining date. What are newbies supposed to do? Invent a friggin' time machine? Ha ha ha ha!
 
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