Logical debates failing

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tiny said:
Dictionaries are not what define language; usage is. Dictionaries merely record the way that words are typically used -- they're a secondary source, not a primary one. And they're based on what is considered (by random subjective persons) to be the standard form of the language.
Interesting point in light of the way most of us now find word definitions. Twenty-five years ago people generally relied on printed dictionaries to define words and explain their meaning in different contexts. This must have had a stabilizing effect on the language because people didn't usually run out and buy a new dictionary every year. With the internet we have lost some of that stability with word definitions, which, I believe, contributes to the confusion seen in modern arguments.
 
tiny said:
I couldn't agree more! I spent most of my time studying philosophy in trying to unpick the precise meaning of every word. No one else seemed to recognise the scale of the problem, nor the fundamental impact it has in being able to talk meaningfully about anything.

There I was, deconstructing language into cross-referenced spiders' webs and Venn diagrams of implied and inferred meaning, whilst other philosophy students were getting A grades for showing simple reading comprehension and parroting facile bullet points. It drove me nuts!

So I salute you for recognising this too! If everyone were as aware of the problems of language and meaning, SO MANY arguments could be avoided, and everyone could spend their time considering the fundamental issues.

Yet (as I have frustratingly discovered) humans are far less concerned with cold logical precision than they are with the vague emotional associations that words have.

The same words can be understood quite differently if they are read in an email, as opposed to face-to-face, when body language and intonation can be perceived. The Sophists in society (politicians, advertisers, con-men, etc.) exploit this with the art of rhetoric.

What are the formal definitions of the words "immigrant" and "ex-patriot"...? They mean the same thing. But their vernacular usage strongly attributes "negative" connotations to immigrant, but not the ex-patriot.

What is the distinction between Muslim and Moslem? Do you know for sure that the distinctions that you make are the same as those made by other people?

Have you ever been asked, "How much pain are you feeling on a scale of 1 to 10"? How can any concrete meaning be derived from that? How accurate is your definition of the word "pain"? How could you ever know that your experience of pain is anything like someone else's experience? What about "love"?

What about when people say, "You've got to be true to yourself." Logically, it's impossible to do anything that isn't "true to yourself" (if the phrase means anything at all). You are you; you do what you do! So, is this statement completely devoid of meaning? If so, why do people say it? If not, what is the intended meaning? And (more importantly) what is the process by which you intuit an association between specific words and meanings?



You want to write yet another dictionary... which will take its place alongside thousands of the others? It's a noble venture, but I don't think it will result in the "definitive" clarity that we crave.

One concern with relying on a single, authoritative source of language is that it inhibits free thought. No dictionary, no matter how comprehensive, could define every word, nor fully explain every possible thought. In Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four the dystopian government was trying to control thought by reducing vocabulary in a way that reinforces the ideals of the regime.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

Instead, it might be worth inventing new unambiguous words, and then explicitly defining them on your own terms. That way you can use them without anyone inadvertently mis-interpreting them according to any other dictionary or vernacular usage.

Of course, once you've created a word, it's "in the wild". Does the word "meme" really mean what its creator intended...?

No matter how hard you try, you really can't pin down precision on language, except by coming to an ad-hoc agreement of terms... And even then, lawyers make millions about the gaps and ambiguity in what people thought was "watertight".



But that misses the point. Why the "best of three", and not "best of five"? If we could analyse every modern standard English dictionary published, we wouldn't reach a consensus. Instead, we'd have some kind of statistical analysis of the probability of meaning (as recorded by people with limited experience, who may be incorrect).

Dictionaries are not what define language; usage is. Dictionaries merely record the way that words are typically used -- they're a secondary source, not a primary one. And they're based on what is considered (by random subjective persons) to be the standard form of the language.

Word meanings are imprecise. It's just how language works. The vast majority of the time, for society to function, we don't need to be accurate. If all you need to do is trade, pidgin may suffice. Pidgin languages can become so comprehensive, effective, and useful that they develop into creoles, sufficiently sophisticated to become the stable first-language of a people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creole_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patois

It's only when talking about complex, abstract, or academically specific fields in which standard language starts to let us down. This is why "terms of art" are created.

The word "weight" means something subtly different to the layperson than to a physicist. In everyday usage, the meaning is more-or-less interchangeable with mass (or at least mathematically proportional). But scientists don't always deal with the everyday.

The word "unlawful" means the same as "illegal" to a lay-person, but not to a lawyer (depending on jurisdiction). A standard dictionary won't even mention the distinction between such terms.



Yep! Me too! But it's a much more difficult task than first meets the eye.

You might find this wiki entry interesting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_language

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm so glad to see someone else not bashing me for pointing out the obvious.

A few points of clarification though, if I may. I'm not saying adisc needs to write a whole new dictionary. Only clarify the most often misused words around here. Just the basics, maybe one or two dozen words at the most.

I often cite using three sources because that's the minimum of data inputs you need to establish a base line (think like with vectoring coordinates X, Y & Z, two points are never enough). Like you said though, search long enough and you can easily find plenty of contracting dictionaries, be it five or even more. That's why I also said better yet, "adopt" just one dictionary as the official source. Yes it will be quite limiting, and absolutely yes the admins would need to select it carefully, but that's the whole point. Ok though, hopefully never THAT limiting...

The real point I'm trying to get to here is for everyone to at least be close enough we can all accurately convey what we mean. One good example I like to give, is "go find a red pipe that's labeled hot. Grab it, then come back and tell me the importance of appropriate labels and understanding those labels isn't important." That is to say, I'm not looking for an exact temperature, only close enough that hot means it could potentially burn you.

As for just inventing a new word. LOL, I tried that and got summarily punnished for it. It was (in my opinion) a good way to seperate out a really commonly misused term for what some people were actually trying to say all along yet had no direct teminology for. Heck, I was told I can never even mention it around ever again though or my next punishement would be worse. Too bad too, I saw in a very short time it was actually starting to help clarify things up around here. Oh well. One step forward, two steps back.

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Drifter said:
Interesting point in light of the way most of us now find word definitions. Twenty-five years ago people generally relied on printed dictionaries to define words and explain their meaning in different contexts. This must have had a stabilizing effect on the language because people didn't usually run out and buy a new dictionary every year. With the internet we have lost some of that stability with word definitions, which, I believe, contributes to the confusion seen in modern arguments.

Lost stability, more increased instability if you ask me. It amazes me how much the internet has been intermixing our multi-national, yet regional, language too. And that's for just English. Nappies anyone? Or is it diapers?
 
Slomo said:
I respectfully disagree with this statement. The "right" definition is easy to figure out as long as you know how to look for it. You can go to most any online dictionary and look up the definition, for free too. Or for added accuracy I personally tend to look at three and compare them for a verified consensus.

Now this is where context really comes in though. You have to look at the multiple meanings under any word, and apply the correct use for that word. Noun, pronoun, verb, adjective, etc, as well as context/reference use are all very important here. (As example, if I'm talking about "nailing" a person I seriously hope you don't immediately picture using a hammer on them). This is almost guaranteed to narrow those multiple meanings down to just one, or at most two very closely related meanings.

And there you go, you've got the "right" meaning every time, no interpretations needed just as long as you follow the directions. Sadly though, it seems most here will ignore the refence context of a word, won't bother to actually look it up themselves, and are completely lost when it comes to figuring out if that word is being used as a verb or adjective. Sigh....


Oh, and ps. Be aware that sites like Merriam Webster show "word history" under all their definitions. It can be confusing too since their number 1 meaning listed is the original meaning- sometimes from more than 100 years ago and is so completely out of date it's obviously not the right meaning any more. The currently used, and generally accepted, use of the word they list is always the last one.

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I absolutely agree with you on the need for having the terms we use already agreed upon. I listed that elsewhere as one of the improvements to adisc. A simple definitions page listing common and agreed upon definitions. Something this incredibly simple would be highly effective at cutting out much of the confusion and misunderstanding I see around here. Dare I hope it would make our debates more communicative too?

I applaud your post as much as possible. As a PhD in a mathematical science and worked a lot in Physics, definitions are absolutely important an indeed, crucial. One of the frustrations in internet discussion is the often sloppy use of terms that renders any discussion pointless. 1+1=2, but there are people out there who would still disagree and say it is homophobic or transphobic or some other -phobic. That's a over-the-top example, but my point is that words with precise and detailed meaning are misused and people claim the RIGHT to alter them unilaterally to serve their own purpose. 'Gender' is one of the classic words which now many people refuse to accept the meaning of. They claim a social reason to alter the meaning itself instead of its APPLICATION - and dont know the difference.

For example, the word 'regression' has multiple meanings, one of which is statistical, but in ABDL circles it is often used very sloppily. ACTING like a baby is not 'psychological regression', it is role play and if you called it regression you are using the wrong word, but if you do use that word, do NOT equate it with psychological regression. They are nothing alike and differ enormously. There is nothing wrong with either, but they are not the same thing, the same experience or the same word.

The ability to communicate is based in large measure upon the agreed meanings of words and phrases. Unilaterally choosing to redefine the meaning of them makes you unintelligible as well as probably, very wrong in your argument if you have to change meanings to make it fit. That's flat-earther territory.

Your post was great and as a lover of mathematics, science and literature, I like the way that words, symbols and equations have meaning - meanings that dont change on a whim.
/RANT
 
sallyanne said:
They claim a social reason to alter the meaning itself instead of its APPLICATION ...
That's a good way to put it.
 
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