Insulting gay members

[soren456]

As a gay man, I have had the love of Jesus hissed at me more often that I care to recall.

Now, in another thread, I'm told (once again) that my orientation is a sin.

That it is a birth defect.

That it is a choice.

This tripe is in my face every day. Why must it follow me here?

Isn't there some place I can go--where all gay members can go--and not have to watch our backs? Where we need not read, yet again, the prattle of the ignorant, the bigots, the religious? Where we need not feel poked and watch our natures discussed, as if our lives were debatable?

My question is to the moderators: Why is this topic even allowed to come to the table, let alone to continue? Why do you consider it viable? Do you have any idea how hurtful, divisive and dangerous this junk is?

And I do mean dangerous, because it is from these very points of ignorant "truth" that the bashers grant themselves permission to come after us. Jerry Falwell has died and the supporting "fact" for his opportunistic bigotry had been proven false years before that event. But it finds a free home here.

So, moderators, don't you feel some sense of responsibility for the well-being of your gay members? Do you possess the imagination to put yourselves into our place and just see what this means to us? Do you truly believe that that discussion is just the same as all others? Do you believe that we should just ignore threads in which our natures are being discussed?

To me, this place has just turned sour. It's like something very good has been taken away, and for very tired and foolish reasons. I know I'm not a long-time member, but even so, I am a member of the community and I--and all gay members--want to contribute and participate in a place of . . . sanctuary, I guess. A place where the crap, ignorance and bigotry of society isn't going to smeared in our faces once again.

-SOREN.

 

[BabyWolf]

Sir, did you even READ the thread? Had you done so, you would have seen it had a message of acceptance and was presented in a very logical, very correct fashion that logically examined viewpoints and, in fact, supported that merely being gay was NOT a sin. Instead, you decided to CHOOSE to be insulted by something that was not at all an insult. You CHOSE to stir things up and act entirely out of emotion without even understanding what you were reading. I deem thee a troll.

 

[Charlie]

To be fair, you are talking about one post made by one member.

I, a moderator, did see the post in question.

My thought process:
1) "Jack-ass"
2) I wonder if this generated decent replies, or whether the thread dived into chaos.
3) Saw your post, thought you over-reacted. Could see your point though.
4) Felt that the rest of the thread wasn't negatively affected. He complained about negative rep, so I made a mental note in case he tried to appeal it later.

You could have reported the post if you felt it that offensive. It was a thread about the WBC, you had to expect somebody to debate topics around homosexually. In this thread you say that you don't want to hear those views here, but yet you read that thread, a thread about extreme homophobia!


Just a general point, I dislike these kind of posts, where moderators are directly addressed in this way: anonymous and by their jobs alone. It sometimes feels like I'm not a member here any more, just a mod.

 

[Mysterious]

Honestly, I know it wasn't the nicest, but get over it. If you know it's not socially accepted everywhere, accept that. I can see why you'd be mad about being insulted but you could seriously take it better. You don't need to overreact and make a scene, just say to yourself it doesn't matter, because it honestly doesn't. What one person over the Internet says should not really effect your life if the only tie to you it has is text. If anything why didn't you try and resolve the problem with the person first? You just need to chill out and think for a second before you speak.

 

[Neonite]

The post you're talking about wasn't the nicest thing one could say about gay people, but the general consenus to it was along the lines of "Dude. That's not right." At least, from what I could tell.

 

[Fire2box]

I thought he was saying being gay isn't a sin but acting out on it is. As for it being a choice or not that's still up for scientific debate from what I seen. (Not saying it is or it isn't since I don't know and nothings been proven.)

Anyway's I personally don't think he went out of his way to insult gay people and I have no idea why he would. Also can someone hide the prop 8 topics from Soren.

 

[BabyWolf]

Here's what I see: someone going out of their way to be insulted. The hypocrisy is hilarious, because most homosexual people I've ever known or heard of claim they were born that way and that they should not be rejected because of it. Yet when I follow that to its logical conclusion, and agree with you that it's not something that can usually be helped and that being that way doesn't make you evil, I'm the bad guy? I was supporting you by stating it in terms that remove all the emotional and moral issues people complain about and explaining it in a very neutral way. The sooner you learn to start leveraging this and stating it in terms that do NOT contain moral and religious connotations, the sooner people will understand and accept you. It is a way for people to understand it better.

 

[teddy564339]

As a gay man, I have had the love of Jesus hissed at me more often that I care to recall.

Now, in another thread, I'm told (once again) that my orientation is a sin.

That it is a birth defect.

That it is a choice.

This tripe is in my face every day. Why must it follow me here?

Isn't there some place I can go--where all gay members can go--and not have to watch our backs? Where we need not read, yet again, the prattle of the ignorant, the bigots, the religious? Where we need not feel poked and watch our natures discussed, as if our lives were debatable?

You could have reported the post if you felt it that offensive. It was a thread about the WBC, you had to expect somebody to debate topics around homosexually. In this thread you say that you don't want to hear those views here, but yet you read that thread, a thread about extreme homophobia!

I think a lot of this has to deal with your own personal experiences and day to day life, soren, rather than the state of this entire community and the mods who are in charge of it. In general, I have found Adisc to be very open towards homosexuality (especially considering that there are so many homosexual members).

One member made one post about the kind of attitude that you're mentioning....and as others have said, I don't get the impression that he had direct intentions to insult or hurt anyone....he was stating his opinion on a matter. As Charlie mentioned, you chose to read the thread...it's not like it's a message plastered over every thread on this whole board.



If you're looking for a place where you can get away from all of the attitudes toward homosexuality that you hate, have you not tried going to sites that are made specifically for homosexuals? Are there not other sites out there for you to escape from everything you see in your day to day life because that's what their purpose is? I'm sorry to say, but even though I would hope that Adisc would be a place where you could, from what I've seen that is not the specific purpose of adisc.

So, moderators, don't you feel some sense of responsibility for the well-being of your gay members? Do you possess the imagination to put yourselves into our place and just see what this means to us? Do you truly believe that that discussion is just the same as all others? Do you believe that we should just ignore threads in which our natures are being discussed?

It's clear that you were hurt and insulted by what you read in the thread. As Charlie mentioned, I think there are avenues to be followed in order to make that clear to the mods that doesn't have to put anyone on the spot.


Have you not considered that others may have been hurt or insulted just as much or more than you have on any number of other topics that have been discussed? The mods are here to do just that..."moderate". I don't feel like it's their job to police opinions and discussions...particularly in this case because it was just one thread, not a saturation of posts across the whole board. Not to equate my own feelings to yours, but I even felt some hurt in this post when you mentioned religious right together with ignorant and bigotous, almost as if they were synonymous. Yet I know that I chose to read your thread and am responsible for anything that I feel based on your own statements...I don't feel the need to have the mods eliminate it.

To me, this place has just turned sour. It's like something very good has been taken away, and for very tired and foolish reasons. I know I'm not a long-time member, but even so, I am a member of the community and I--and all gay members--want to contribute and participate in a place of . . . sanctuary, I guess. A place where the crap, ignorance and bigotry of society isn't going to smeared in our faces once again.

-SOREN.

As I mentioned earlier, Adisc is a sanctuary for *B/DLism. As I also mentioned, I don't constitute one post by one member as "smearing someone's face in".




I by no means don't think your feelings or concerns are invalid, soren. I personally am also glad that you made note of them, and I hope all members continue to be aware of what and how they post can affect everyone on the board.

However, I think it is too much to expect a community as large as this one to never have anything said that you have a problem with, and I don't think the mods should be held at fault because one post offends or hurts someone....there's no such thing as a perfect community. These issues should be addressed and discussed, but I'm not willing to taint my view of this whole site based solely on one instance.

 

[Chillhouse]

dude, was like one post. I havn't seen any other insulting posts, but maybe i'm not looking hard enough.

Isn't there some place I can go--where all gay members can go--and not have to watch our backs? Where we need not read, yet again, the prattle of the ignorant, the bigots, the religious? Where we need not feel poked and watch our natures discussed, as if our lives were debatable?

I give you.....
gay heaven.

 

[soren456]

I'm going to stick with my point of view.

The thread has become an insult.

We stopped debating if blacks could be as smart as whites a long time ago. There's no definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and that assertion otherwise is the property of the ignorant and the bigoted. And we know how this bigotry is used.

And we stopped debating if women (especially blondes) are less intelligent than men, if they can handle life outside the kitchen, if they can think logically--like men. I don't think there's a definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and the assertion otherwise is the property of the threatened and the ignorant. And we know how this bigotry is used.

This site would not dream of hosting an argument about racial intelligence or the ability of women to handle themselves in life. And if it did, the complaints would pour in. And of course, the thread would be stopped.

Why is homosexuality different? As with race and sex, at some point, enough evidence is available to counter the fears and questions, and the topic shifts gears to a more mature and productive level. The old assertions are left to the bigots and deliberately ignorant.

If we want to discuss and debate sexuality, then debate all sexuality, not just one aspect of it. The truth is that no answers are known on any question of how our orientation arrives--straight, gay or anything in between. Overwhelming evidence suggests genetics for all of it; nothing whatsoever suggests a choice for any of us, or a "birth defect" for some of us.

To take origins of homosexuality outside the discussion of all sexuality is, simply, to ask the wrong question. Straights cannot tell why they are straight; when that question can be answered, I have no doubt we will then know why I am gay. But neither question is answered at this point, and that fact is ignored in the thread.

The term "birth defect" is not much different, in the discussion of sexual orientation, that the term "sickness." No one with any sophistication adheres to that theory today. The whole idea was dropped in the 70s, and nothing whatsoever has suggested that it was a mistake. "Birth defect" is a value judgment and a pejorative term and has no place here. The member can prattle on about it, but he says more about himself, and his ignorance, than he says about the gay members.

Finally, moderators do indeed have a responsibility to counter and to stop destructive "information" posted at this site. This isn't a point of political correctness, it's a matter of the hurt it causes members, who face it daily, and the destructive use to which these "facts" are put. Bigots and bullies get permission for their behavior some place, and it is from such "facts" as birth defects, choice and sin that they take their cue. To allow this on this site, with moderation's uncritical OK, is to grant it credence and power.

-SOREN.

 

[teddy564339]

I'm going to stick with my point of view.

The thread has become an insult.

We stopped debating if blacks could be as smart as whites a long time ago. There's no definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and that assertion otherwise is the property of the ignorant and the bigoted. And we know how this bigotry is used.

And we stopped debating if women (especially blondes) are less intelligent than men, if they can handle life outside the kitchen, if they can think logically--like men. I don't think there's a definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and the assertion otherwise is the property of the threatened and the ignorant. And we know how this bigotry is used.

This site would not dream of hosting an argument about racial intelligence or the ability of women to handle themselves in life. And if it did, the complaints would pour in. And of course, the thread would be stopped.

Why is homosexuality different? As with race and sex, at some point, enough evidence is available to counter the fears and questions, and the topic shifts gears to a more mature and productive level. The old assertions are left to the bigots and deliberately ignorant.

If we want to discuss and debate sexuality, then debate all sexuality, not just one aspect of it. The truth is that no answers are known on any question of how our orientation arrives--straight, gay or anything in between. Overwhelming evidence suggests genetics for all of it; nothing whatsoever suggests a choice for any of us, or a "birth defect" for some of us.

To take origins of homosexuality outside the discussion of all sexuality is, simply, to ask the wrong question. Straights cannot tell why they are straight; when that question can be answered, I have no doubt we will then know why I am gay. But neither question is answered at this point, and that fact is ignored in the thread.

The term "birth defect" is not much different, in the discussion of sexual orientation, that the term "sickness." No one with any sophistication adheres to that theory today. The whole idea was dropped in the 70s, and nothing whatsoever has suggested that it was a mistake. "Birth defect" is a value judgment and a pejorative term and has no place here. The member can prattle on about it, but he says more about himself, and his ignorance, than he says about the gay members.

I believe it would have been better had you posted this response to the original statement in the original thread where this all started. Everything you just posted is related directly to that statement and would have promoted discussion in the thread. At that point you would have been able to clearly explain your problem with it, and why you viewed it as hurtful and innacurate.

Finally, moderators do indeed have a responsibility to counter and to stop destructive "information" posted at this site. This isn't a point of political correctness, it's a matter of the hurt it causes members, who face it daily, and the destructive use to which these "facts" are put. Bigots and bullies get permission for their behavior some place, and it is from such "facts" as birth defects, choice and sin that they take their cue. To allow this on this site, with moderation's uncritical OK, is to grant it credence and power.

-SOREN.

I think you're putting too much weight into the statement that was made. I did not take the statement as a statement of fact, evidence, proof or information...I took it as a perspective. I got the impression that most people on this site viewed it the same way. I doubt many, if anyone, would read the statement and use it as motivation to bully someone else, particularly on this forum.


I personally also think it would have been less effective for a mod to have deleted the post, for example. If at the beginning you had posted this response to the original statement, everyone would have been able to read your post and determine for themselves which one made more sense...especially since you offered a fairly detailed explanation. To me invoking this discussion is more beneficial to everyone than to shut down one person's perspective because others find it offensive or hurtful.



I'll admit that I have not clearly read through what the official, stated role of the mods is. But from my personal viewpoint, it would be their responsibility to control any statements or threads that have the clear intention of causing hurt to other members. I don't think it's their job to tell people how to think or how to react to a position that is posted...it is members jobs to point out their problems with it, as you have done here.



Again, I'm just giving my take on all of this....it will of course be up to the mods to decide how to handle it.

 

[ajsco]

One person on one thread - get over it!!

 

[Butterfly Mage]

I have no beef against mainstream Christianity. Most Christians I know think the Pope, Pat Robertson, and Fred Phelps are all bogus. What bothers me is when the so-called "leaders" use the Bible to stoke up the hate/bigotry that some people have. It's dangerous to give religious sanction to hate.

I personally don't think homosexuality is a sin. I also don't have a lot of confidence that the Bible ever really said that homosexuality was sinful. I say this because no one knows how the Bible read before the Council of Nicea did ther edit/hack job on the various fragmentary scrolls and assorted volumes that eventually became the Bible of record. For that matter, what did the Gospels of Peter and Mary have to say? Be that as it may, the Council of Nicea was a group of angry old men with a political agenda. They also wanted to disenfranchise women to the greatest extent possible.

So when the hate-based fundamentalists scream their bigoted diatribes about gays, I remind myself that they haven't given much thought about the veracity of the holy writ that they cling to.

Since the VAST number of true-blue Christians I know have no beef with homosexuality or homosexuals, I have to conclude that the ones who use the Bible to prop up their hate are just using the Bible to prop up their hate. It's as simple as that. After all, you don't see these homophobes obeying the zillion other laws in Mosaic writ.

 

[Charlie]

We stopped debating if blacks could be as smart as whites a long time ago. There's no definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and that assertion otherwise is the property of the ignorant and the bigoted. And we know how this bigotry is used.

And we stopped debating if women (especially blondes) are less intelligent than men, if they can handle life outside the kitchen, if they can think logically--like men. I don't think there's a definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and the assertion otherwise is the property of the threatened and the ignorant. And we know how this bigotry is used.

This site would not dream of hosting an argument about racial intelligence or the ability of women to handle themselves in life. And if it did, the complaints would pour in. And of course, the thread would be stopped.

Why is homosexuality different? As with race and sex, at some point, enough evidence is available to counter the fears and questions, and the topic shifts gears to a more mature and productive level. The old assertions are left to the bigots and deliberately ignorant.

If a thread about the intelligence of homosexuals came up with people arguing that gays are lesser people or fundamentally sub-human, then yeah, that would probably get a couple of complaints.

This is not the same thing though is it?
As far as I can see, the *whole* issue is the poor word choice: defect.
I see the point though, it's just a bad way of expressing it.

Finally, moderators do indeed have a responsibility to counter and to stop destructive "information" posted at this site. This isn't a point of political correctness, it's a matter of the hurt it causes members, who face it daily, and the destructive use to which these "facts" are put.

Jacqui?

I'm not going to be paternalist and censor views or words that I deem destructive.
I think of some of the American conservative views to be dangerous or plain wrong, but I'm not going to censor that am I?

 

[Fire2box]

I'm going to stick with my point of view.

The thread has become an insult.

We stopped debating if blacks could be as smart as whites a long time ago. There's no definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and that assertion otherwise is the property of the ignorant and the bigoted. And we know how this bigotry is used.

And we stopped debating if women (especially blondes) are less intelligent than men or even seen anyone that has. If they can handle life outside the kitchen, if they can think logically--like men. I don't think there's a definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and the assertion otherwise is the property of the threatened and the ignorant. And we know how this bigotry is used.

1. The whole black and white thing doesn't work in this situation since the only difference between people on ANY color is skin pigmentation.

2. I never debated if blond woman are stupid, most of them are not and most blond's dye their hair. Also just like the first the only difference is color, nothing else. Also having blue eye's and blonde hair never made anyone and you know what either.

Again, I don't see what any of this has to do about what makes a person gay or not. Nor does it support anyone's claims on either side. Coloring is far outside the lines of human sexuality.


Also all of this is over one post, so could I make a push to make criticizing republicans against the rules on Adisc since Adisc's members are mostly liberal and in that case liberal biased? (that question is to Soren.)

 

[dinorider]

Look, Soren, I've really come to appreciate the posts you make around here and think you're a great addition to the community. That said, I think you're overreacting something awful. Before I go on, you might want to know that I'm gay and do not in any way condone the post(s) you reacted against.

As has been said, this is the Internet. Even though this is supposed to be (and to 99% is) a place where most people are able to hang around without reading stuff that makes them feel insulted, it's still the Internet. That means people will think what they think and post what they post. You have to be ready to read something like that every once in a while, even here. The Internet is in a way a mirror of our society, and you wouldn't expect to never hear something like that in your daily life.

I still understand perfectly well why you felt insulted, but why this lash-out at the entirety of ADISC? One person was behind that post, and it's pretty evident from the thread that most people didn't agree with it at all. The community at large is on your side here. Don't turn that around by blowing up like this.

While I don't like seeing posts like that either, I don't agree that is should be removed by moderators unless it comes to clear personal attacks. First of because that would be censorship, and censorship is really quite a scary thing in the long run. Secondly because I think it's not at all dangerous. From the responses in the thread there was hardly an increase in general homophobia. To be honest, I think it if possible went the other way around, showing how ADISC as a whole frowns upon homophobia.

 

[timmahtherebel]

Screw Christian morals. Those people are so backwards its not even funny

 

[Mysterious]

We stopped debating if blacks could be as smart as whites a long time ago. There's no definitive study on the topic; most people just recognized that the evidence points elsewhere and that assertion otherwise is the property of the ignorant and the bigoted. And we know how this bigotry is used.

Dude, you are going WAY off topic and are getting WAY too deep into this. It's not that big a deal, all it was a bit of bad word choice. I can see you took offense to this but you need to think rationally for a second. Stop being a drama queen and let it go, because this isn't helping. Dragging it out is only making you seem more hurt, and doesn't make it seem like you're doing much to try and feel better. Please just chill out and if anything, deal with the problem with the person who said the post.

 

[Fire2box]

Screw Christian morals. Those people are so backwards its not even funny

Not all Christian's are what you think, however even I agree some of them seem to be the most idiotic and hypocritical people on the planet. A lot of people in my dad's church's study group are that way. I can't even volunteer with them to do something good only since I am not officially in their group and I am not since I think most of them are selfish assholes, served with a side of "holier then thou".

but really it's true no christian is perfect, none ever have been and none ever will be. However there's still no reason to put down christian morals which are pretyt much always love is stronger/better then hate.

 

[Valentine]

Screw Christian morals. Those people are so backwards its not even funny

I suppose then that you will not mind when I show up at your house and steal your stuff and kill you.

Because those are a couple of those Christian morals.