How can we make rock appeal to younger listeners?

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AnalogRTO

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I understand that some people have feelings regarding the particular type of music they enjoy is "better" than others, and will often use a variety of reasons to back up their claims. I really try to make sure that I don't disparage anyone's feelings regarding their choice in music as compared to mine. The reasons one person likes a given piece of music where another does not are similar reasons as to why one person follows a particular religious belief system where someone else follows another. The choices are personal, and I won't go insulting someone's choices simply because they are not what I choose.

With that said, there are many places I can find music to my tastes. Beethoven and Mozart were great composers; were they alive today, I could easily see them in the punk or metal genre. Grieg would probably be doing speed metal. I can still listen to these composers and find music that appeals to me. Are the classical composers or those who perform classical music lacking in talent in any way? Far from it. What about other genres of music?

In all, I look at the history and influences that drive many of the modern musical groups I enjoy. Aerosmith was heavily influenced by blues and honky-tonk. There are a huge number of musicians that are classically trained yet play a completely different type of music. Look at Jon Oliva from Savatage and now Trans-Siberian Orchestra--heavily influenced by classical music yet plays metal versions of the same. Volbeat, a Danish metal band, is heavily influenced by rockabilly style, most notably Elvis Presley.

I am not necessarily a fan of most pop music; a lot of the acts I see performing there only have the ability to sing and look good. Some of them are great singers, but lack for any other talent at all. Their music is written for them and the band backing them up never gets any credit. My feeling is that many of these 'artists' are as talented as someone singing the jingle for a TV commercial. Do not get me wrong, there are some out there who are extremely talented, but they are not often as heavily hyped.

I am also not a big fan of country music. That is my personal choice. There are actually songs out there that have country music influences that I enjoy, "Country Song" by Seether being a notable one. Some country music does appeal to me from time to time, but for the most part it is not what I care to indulge in on a regular basis.

I do enjoy a wide variety of music, however. There are some that I consider to be extremely talented out there when it comes to composing and performing music. I enjoy being introduced to music that shows the different influences and is incorporated in novel ways. Danny Elfman and Oingo Boingo were great at bringing in different musical styles.

My typical choice for music is hard rock and metal. Considering how I live my daily life, I find it a natural choice. I tend to live my life faster and harder than most around me. Skydiving and living life on the edge lends itself to faster riffs with a stronger beat. Hard rock and metal tend to fill this, but some punk does as well.

In summary, I appreciate music for everything that brought it to fruition. There are the influences from prior genres, the drive of newer artists to create something different and new, the talents of composers, songwriters, and performers. I can appreciate the talents and drive of someone like Skrillex just the same as I can Lzzy Hale and the rest of Halestorm.

I think the only guys I will outright disparage are the two frontmen for Milli Vanilli, their only talent was at lip-syncing.
 

dampatnight

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Using the term “pop-music” in such a negative light is actually a problem in my opinion. Pop music in itself isn't inherently bad. There is artfully crafted stuff by talented people out there which has to be considered pop. Although it probably calls itself indie now to avoid that.

Also if you think there is no rock in the mainstream then just check out some new bands like cloud nothings or tbh any one of the many rock bands in Seattle atm.
I recently came across Pickwick from Seattle and quite enjoyed what I heard.

Also, Sweden currently has a real hype with old school rock. Bands like Graveyard, Witchcraft, Free Fall, Troubled Horse or White Daze are quite successful. Kadavar from Berlin is definately worth a mention here as well. So while it doesn't sell millions of copies it's actually very alive.
 

Oateson

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Yeah, but it doesn't really matter how old he was. It's impressive, for certain. But this is about how revolutionary his music was, not how impressive of a musician he is.

I think the two go hand-in-hand. The fact he was making great, revolutionary tunes at some a young age is very impressive.

Point is, early Aphex was still rather traditional. It was weird, for sure, but by the time he had really started doing what is now considered the typical IDM sounds, Autechre had already released Tri Repetae and co.

The way I see it, Both Autechre and him started off with this quirky mixture of electronic ambient, techno, unusually syncopatic beats and weird elements. Then Aphex's style become more varied, while Autechre started honing in on that one crazy style, using stochastic methods. By the time he released the Richard D. James album, he truly was the one guy who summed up and perfected what most people now think of as IDM. But without Autechre's material before that, and that of other Warp-related artists, he wouldn't have gotten to that point in the first place.

I really can't agree here. Tri Repetae is still very much an ambient tech album. Autechre didn't start shifting into wacky rhythms and beats until Chiastic Slide at the very earliest. The changeover is very apparent between these two albums.

Having said that, Chiastic Slide was released in 1997, after both of Aphex's ...I Care Because You Do, and Richard D. James Album albums were released, as well as his EPs up to Come to Daddy. It's pretty obvious that by the time Autechre started getting into beat fuckery, Aphex Twin had already cemented himself as a pioneer of electronic music doing something truly unique, something that didn't really come to Autechre until Chiastic Slide.

Being on the same record label and playing the same festivals and gigs, I don't deny both Ae and Aphex Twin crossed paths, listened to each other's music, and had a chat with each other. But going by the dates of the music they released, and the style of the album, Aphex Twin was well ahead of Autechre in terms of producing that style of music.

Early Warp Records days were also very much minimal/ambient tech influenced as well. Just looking at the musical style of the Artificial Intelligence series, of which Aphex Twin himself contributed to... the first album in the series, released in 1992, is the exact same style of music released on SAW 85-92. Aphex Twin was recording this stuff privately, not only as a teenager, but before it even became recognised by major labels.
 

Rikachan

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I really can't agree here. Tri Repetae is still very much an ambient tech album. Autechre didn't start shifting into wacky rhythms and beats until Chiastic Slide at the very earliest. The changeover is very apparent between these two albums.

Not really. Aphex went more into the direction of using traditional elements (drum kits etc) in a syncopatic style, while Autechre was a little behind on some of the hallmarks of IDM (like constant, heavy changes mid-song) but far, far in front on the soundscapes that would become common for IDM.



Having said that, Chiastic Slide was released in 1997, after both of Aphex's ...I Care Because You Do, and Richard D. James Album albums were released, as well as his EPs up to Come to Daddy. It's pretty obvious that by the time Autechre started getting into beat fuckery, Aphex Twin had already cemented himself as a pioneer of electronic music doing something truly unique, something that didn't really come to Autechre until Chiastic Slide.

And Autechre's style would eventually end up closer to what is now IDM. Listen to Tri Repetae and Hangable Auto Bulb back to back. See which one sounds closer to modern IDM. Aphex had slightly more dynamic arrangements, while Autechre had the sound, and pretty much the arrangements, too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Autechre's arrangements are more interesting. Aphex constantly changed rhythms, to keep that breakbeat feeling. Autechre created shorter, more static rhythms, and still managed to have them sound as crazy.

Being on the same record label and playing the same festivals and gigs, I don't deny both Ae and Aphex Twin crossed paths, listened to each other's music, and had a chat with each other. But going by the dates of the music they released, and the style of the album, Aphex Twin was well ahead of Autechre in terms of producing that style of music.

As I said, he only kinda did. And only if by producing that style of music you mean having a slightly wider range. Because in terms of music production, Autechre is leagues above Aphex, using many more techniques (like stochastic methods) and more unusual element combinations (while Aphex was using simple synths and drum samples, Autechre were either using heavily DSP'd samples, or weirdly configured synths).

Early Warp Records days were also very much minimal/ambient tech influenced as well. Just looking at the musical style of the Artificial Intelligence series, of which Aphex Twin himself contributed to... the first album in the series, released in 1992, is the exact same style of music released on SAW 85-92. Aphex Twin was recording this stuff privately, not only as a teenager, but before it even became recognised by major labels.

Yep. But not only is that style not modern IDM, Autechre were pretty close. In fact, they contributed to the series, too. And the fact that he was one of the first people to do that style isn't amazing, because, exactly like you said, it's a style *heavily* influenced by ambient tech. So heavily, that I would not consider it revolutionary.

If you wanna talk the drill&bass, snare rush-heavy kind of IDM, sure. Aphex was clearly ahead of them. If you wanna talk the soundscapes, weird rhythms and lateral song structures typical in so much IDM, it's Autechre who gave them that.

None of that really matters though, since in the last couple of years IDM seems to move towards either quirky, more traditionally structured stuff (Sutekh, Alex Cortex, Nero's Day at Disneyland), or more ambient, slightly glitch-influenced styles (Casino Versus Japan, Ametsub). Personally, I'll stick to Chris Clark.
 
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Sweden is actually one of the countries bands who give a shit about their music. Look at Ghost BC for example, how they bring a early 70s music feel to their art, or Meshuggah.
 

Oateson

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Aphex went more into the direction of using traditional elements (drum kits etc) in a syncopatic style, while Autechre was a little behind on some of the hallmarks of IDM (like constant, heavy changes mid-song) but far, far in front on the soundscapes that would become common for IDM.

SAW Volume 2. If you say that isn't soundscapes, then you're kidding yourself. Although Autechre released Incunabula a year before, the albums are virtually contemporaneous, and Incunabula certainly isn't pure ambience. Who came first? Well, Autechre, but it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to say both artists were working on ambient soundscapes independently, and at the same time.


And Autechre's style would eventually end up closer to what is now IDM. Listen to Tri Repetae and Hangable Auto Bulb back to back. See which one sounds closer to modern IDM. Aphex had slightly more dynamic arrangements, while Autechre had the sound, and pretty much the arrangements, too. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Autechre's arrangements are more interesting. Aphex constantly changed rhythms, to keep that breakbeat feeling. Autechre created shorter, more static rhythms, and still managed to have them sound as crazy.

I get slightly annoyed at the use of the label "IDM" as a genre. What is "IDM"? It's a horrific term used by people to encompass music that doesn't clearly present the traditional elements of musical composition. Which makes no sense, since all music is based on something. One "IDM" track could be an infinite distance apart from another "IDM" track, yet they get labelled the same.


As I said, he only kinda did. And only if by producing that style of music you mean having a slightly wider range. Because in terms of music production, Autechre is leagues above Aphex, using many more techniques (like stochastic methods) and more unusual element combinations (while Aphex was using simple synths and drum samples, Autechre were either using heavily DSP'd samples, or weirdly configured synths).

You're starting to talk about Autechre's later discography, which has no contemporary. So I'm not sure what you're arguing here. This discussion can only be taken as far as the mid-1990s, when these two artists start to drastically diverge from each other. Beyond that, there is no point in comparisons.


Yep. But not only is that style not modern IDM, Autechre were pretty close. In fact, they contributed to the series, too. And the fact that he was one of the first people to do that style isn't amazing, because, exactly like you said, it's a style *heavily* influenced by ambient tech. So heavily, that I would not consider it revolutionary.

Revolutionary does not equate to Impressive. I'm talking about how some young kid was making music that even today stills sounds fresh. That's impressive, but by no means makes me feel like he's a musical messiah.

If you wanna talk the drill&bass, snare rush-heavy kind of IDM, sure. Aphex was clearly ahead of them. If you wanna talk the soundscapes, weird rhythms and lateral song structures typical in so much IDM, it's Autechre who gave them that.

Again, I can only take this discussion as far as the mid-1990s, when both artists were doing more or less comparable work. In their later years, for sure, they both set a precendent in their respective sounds.
 

pajamakitten

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Sweden is actually one of the countries bands who give a shit about their music. Look at Ghost BC for example, how they bring a early 70s music feel to their art, or Meshuggah.

Sweden still produces the pop music you hate though, practically every country will have a pop scene a metal scene as well. Selectively analysing a countries music industry is pointless because there will be good bands to prove your point and bad bands to disprove it.
 
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Yeah like Bjork.
But I try to see the good a country might offer.
Germany: Rammstein.
Austrailia: The Affinity Affliction
Wales: Bullet For My Valentine
 

Rikachan

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SAW Volume 2. If you say that isn't soundscapes, then you're kidding yourself.

I wasn't talking about a soundscape, but the soundscapes typical for modern IDM. Sorry if that was unclear.

Although Autechre released Incunabula a year before, the albums are virtually contemporaneous, and Incunabula certainly isn't pure ambience. Who came first? Well, Autechre, but it's by no means a stretch of the imagination to say both artists were working on ambient soundscapes independently, and at the same time.

Totally agreed. I wasn't actually trying to make point about their earlier styles (how innovative those styles were, or anything like that), but about how these earlier styles relate to what would later become IDM.

I get slightly annoyed at the use of the label "IDM" as a genre. What is "IDM"? It's a horrific term used by people to encompass music that doesn't clearly present the traditional elements of musical composition. Which makes no sense, since all music is based on something. One "IDM" track could be an infinite distance apart from another "IDM" track, yet they get labelled the same.

I don't think anyone ever used IDM as a term for music that doesn't clearly present the traditional elements of musical composition (most people tend to use terms like experimental and avantgarde for that, both of which make no sense, either), but I totally agree that IDM is a nonsense term insofar as its meaning. Its only purpose, and the reason why I use it, is to make clear that I'm talking about electronic music which has a heavy emphasis on rhythmic syncopation, lots of digital signal processing, weird elements and things like that, and which dooes not belong to any of the other, big genres (house, trance, etc).

You're starting to talk about Autechre's later discography, which has no contemporary. So I'm not sure what you're arguing here. This discussion can only be taken as far as the mid-1990s, when these two artists start to drastically diverge from each other. Beyond that, there is no point in comparisons.

My point is that the weird techniques, rhythms and arrangements used by Autechre early on had a bigger influence on IDM than Aphex's early work. And these things are not exclusive to their later work. That's why I brought up Hangable Auto Bulb. It's IDM, for certain. But in terms of the sounds used, it's all rather simple samples and synths, while Autechre were doing much weirder stuff at the very same time. Stuff that would become much more of a mainstay in IDM.

Revolutionary does not equate to Impressive. I'm talking about how some young kid was making music that even today stills sounds fresh. That's impressive, but by no means makes me feel like he's a musical messiah.

That was my point. The music he did back then is amazing, but not that revolutionary, and he wasn't the one person to make IDM what it is. I think we might actually be in agreement on most things. The discussion has gotten a little convoluted.

Yeah like Bjork.
But I try to see the good a country might offer.
Germany: Rammstein.
Austrailia: The Affinity Affliction
Wales: Bullet For My Valentine

Are you being sarcastic here? Because you seem to be implying that Rammstein etc. are superior to Bjork. Which would be kinda nuts.
 
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Rammsteins been out since 1994, although people say 1995. How long has Bjork been out? Oh yeah I forgot to add the great punkish band from Germany Totem Hosen.
 
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Are you being sarcastic here? Because you seem to be implying that Rammstein etc. are superior to Bjork. Which would be kinda nuts.
Balto91 doesn't think much of anything outside rock/metal and is usually quite happy to say it.
Rammsteins been out since 1994, although people say 1995. How long has Bjork been out?
Her musical career began when she was eleven with her study of classical piano in elementary school. One of her instructors sent a recording of Björk singing Tina Charles's song "I Love to Love" to RÚV, then the only radio station in Iceland. The recording was broadcast on radio nationally; after hearing it, a representative of the record label Fálkinn contacted Björk to offer a record contract. An album, Björk, was recorded and released in 1977.
Björk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It took me all of 2 seconds to check the wiki :wallbash:

Balto91 I would love to know what difference it really makes on how long a musician has been recording. Is it a similar thing to 'My dad is bigger than your dad' ?
 
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While you described me somewhat, I don't bash everything outside of rock/metal. I applaud orchestral creations as it takes a lot of knowledge to create those wonderful symphonies. And Bjork has done rock check out your link there. Physicially Till would crush Bjork lol. All hail Till Lindermann.
 
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While you described me somewhat, I don't bash everything outside of rock/metal.
You have to admit you bash an awful lot that isn't rock/metal, You'd think considering you want to be part of the music industry you would be able to appreciate the craftsmanship of a song even if its not to your taste.

And Bjork has done rock check out your link there.
Does this mean you like Bjork now ?

Physicially Till would crush Bjork lol. All hail Till Lindermann.
So it is the great playground game 'My dad is bigger than your dad'
 
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If Bjork incorporates electric guitars in her music then i probably will like it like a couple of Pinks songs. You sound just like my dad with appreciating the craft of a song regardless of the genre. Food for thought lady gaga says marilyn manson is a influence of hers but i dont hear it rubbing off on her.
 
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Its just another cat fight, Till is 6 3 and weighs 220-240. How much is that little thing called Bjork?
 

Rikachan

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If Bjork incorporates electric guitars in her music then i probably will like it like a couple of Pinks songs. You sound just like my dad with appreciating the craft of a song regardless of the genre. Food for thought lady gaga says marilyn manson is a influence of hers but i dont hear it rubbing off on her.

You like Pink, but not Bjork. Uh-huh.

You sound just like my dad with appreciating the craft of a song regardless of the genre.

Your dad is a smart man then. =)

Food for thought lady gaga says marilyn manson is a influence of hers but i dont hear it rubbing off on her.

I don't see what that has to do with anything. Point is, a harmonic progression, an arrangement, a rhythm is what it is, regardless of whether the chords are played by a guitar or a synthesizer, or whether the rhythm is played by a drummer, an orchestral percussionist, or a drum machine.
 
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Well lets just say dad lives in the age of James Taylor and The Orleans.
Pinks Funhouse album, which has "Sober," "So What?," and a couple other songs should be a prime role model for all the pop artists out there.
 

pajamakitten

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"So What?,"

You mean an incredibly commercial faux punk song that tries to make Pink seem more badass than she actually is? Pink is not and never will be a rockstar and she shouldn't try to be one, pop is what she is good at and what she should stick to. A musician is best when they perform music that they're good at and enjoy making, not every musician should be attempting rock simply because you like it because if it doesn't fit their style then it'll be crap. Good pop music is better than crap rock music.
 
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