Hating male appearance.

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LittleJess

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I sometimes hate my male appearance, I have this hatred for it.

Usually stems from jealously I see myself as a female, but when I get jealous, I kind of also hate my male appearance in return. Sometimes I see a very cute female, and am jealous I myself am not that cute, and probs won't ever be.

Do any of you sissies or girls feel the same way? question could apply to anyone.
 

Sapphyre

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From a trans perspective:

Yes. Very much. I remember going through puberty and dreading every single change. I hoped, in vain, that I would have no facial hair or maybe just very little. I hoped, in vain, that my voice wouldn't drop. I hoped I wouldn't ever have much body hair.

It could have been worse, I suppose. I'm not broad-shouldered and without the hair my face is probably passable. But, without a lot of modification, I feel like right now there's just no way I can actually be cute or pretty. It bothers me more than most people would imagine.
 

MandyBear

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Sometimes I see a very cute female, and am jealous I myself am not that cute

I feel like right now there's just no way I can actually be cute or pretty. It bothers me more than most people would imagine.

Hmmm.
Body image issues.
Self Doubt.
Comparing yourself to other women.
Being jealous of and/or wishing you had certain attributes seen in other girls.

Well, all I can say is one thing to the both of you .........

Welcome to being a girl ;)
 

gigglemuffinz

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I have certainly experienced what you're talking about before. Nothing stinks more than desiring so strongly something that feels out of reach.

The most important advice I can give is that nothing is truly, truly out of reach, you just have to change your standards and have approachable, realistic goals. Anyone assigned male at birth can get themselves quite cute if they actually apply themselves, and if it matters to you then you have to try and struggle through the rough parts.

As a trans girl, I try to remember that being a trans girl is just as viable, just as real, a way to be a girl than a cis girl. We are both girls. Their appearance is no "MORE" a girls appearance than mine. I tell myself when I'm feeling weak and sad in this area that. I'm a girl. With a girls appearance. If other people don't want to recognize it, that's their problem.
 

Alexia

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Hmmm.
Body image issues.
Self Doubt.
Comparing yourself to other women.
Being jealous of and/or wishing you had certain attributes seen in other girls.

Well, all I can say is one thing to the both of you .........

Welcome to being a girl ;)

when you put it that way.. i remember few weeks ago when my brother and his girlfriend stopped by for a visit. we went for a walk and when we sat down for a cigarette break i caught myself unintentionaly looking at her shoes with a bit of jealousy. i really liked her shoes..

i feel a lot more girly now <3
 

MarchinBunny

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Their appearance is no "MORE" a girls appearance than mine. I tell myself when I'm feeling weak and sad in this area that. I'm a girl. With a girls appearance. If other people don't want to recognize it, that's their problem.

I don't know if I can quite agree with this. I mean I don't mean to shoot down your advice or anything here, but what you said here simply isn't true. It's just a fib you tell yourself to make you feel better. Personally speaking I would say accepting the truth and still accepting it is the way to go.

Can you get to the point where your appearance is the same as a biologically born female? Yes, certainly. It does take a lot of work though. But you can't just tell yourself you have the appearance of a girl if you don't. I mean don't get me wrong, I do like the sound of your advice and wish it was actually the case.

Well, on the other hand, it could just be me misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
 

gigglemuffinz

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I don't know if I can quite agree with this. I mean I don't mean to shoot down your advice or anything here, but what you said here simply isn't true. It's just a fib you tell yourself to make you feel better. Personally speaking I would say accepting the truth and still accepting it is the way to go.

Can you get to the point where your appearance is the same as a biologically born female? Yes, certainly. It does take a lot of work though. But you can't just tell yourself you have the appearance of a girl if you don't. I mean don't get me wrong, I do like the sound of your advice and wish it was actually the case.

Well, on the other hand, it could just be me misunderstanding what you are trying to say.

You haven't misunderstood, and forgive me for any intensity in my reply.. I'm super passionate about what I'm about to say. Hehe. .-.

Pre-transition trans girls are girls. Pre-transition trans boys are boys. I am a girl right now and the validation of hormones and surgery should be entirely to make me more comfortable. It shouldn't be the requirement for being accepted for who I am. I truly do believe this isn't a fib. I'm female. Right now.

If this is true, then the rest of my statement should flow naturally from that argument. My body is a girl's body. I have a girl's penis and I'm not ashamed to say that

I understand deep and painful dsyphoria, and wanting so desperately a form that matches what society says is the typical performance of my gender, but that should be a personal decision that someone should make to make the them that they want to be. Not a requirement for society to accept them for who they are.. As more and more trans people come out of the closet and has the future becomes increasingly the now, we are simply finding that some girls have penises, and some boys have vaginas.

The most concise defense for this argument and how it's not a fib is this; Wouldn't it be very true that you would be called a sexist for telling a cis woman that she was less of a woman, just because she wore her hair short? Or wore a certain type of clothing? Or liked certain hobbies? I believe this argument naturally flows into being trans. I will not let anyone tell me that I'm less of a woman, or I don't have a "woman's" appearance. 50% outdated notions of woman and 50% robbing my the agency of my gender.

Honestly I could go on and on as to why this mindset is important and necessary. Continuing a trend of language that equates typical ideas of womanhood as requirements forces trans women to be excessively feminine whether they want to or not just to gain acceptance, and tells the trans girls who cannot for whatever reason medically undergo surgery/HRT that they will never be accepted.
 

MarchinBunny

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You haven't misunderstood, and forgive me for any intensity in my reply.. I'm super passionate about what I'm about to say. Hehe. .-.

Pre-transition trans girls are girls. Pre-transition trans boys are boys. I am a girl right now and the validation of hormones and surgery should be entirely to make me more comfortable. It shouldn't be the requirement for being accepted for who I am. I truly do believe this isn't a fib. I'm female. Right now.

If this is true, then the rest of my statement should flow naturally from that argument. My body is a girl's body. I have a girl's penis and I'm not ashamed to say that

I understand deep and painful dsyphoria, and wanting so desperately a form that matches what society says is the typical performance of my gender, but that should be a personal decision that someone should make to make the them that they want to be. Not a requirement for society to accept them for who they are.. As more and more trans people come out of the closet and has the future becomes increasingly the now, we are simply finding that some girls have penises, and some boys have vaginas.

The most concise defense for this argument and how it's not a fib is this; Wouldn't it be very true that you would be called a sexist for telling a cis woman that she was less of a woman, just because she wore her hair short? Or wore a certain type of clothing? Or liked certain hobbies? I believe this argument naturally flows into being trans. I will not let anyone tell me that I'm less of a woman, or I don't have a "woman's" appearance. 50% outdated notions of woman and 50% robbing my the agency of my gender.

Honestly I could go on and on as to why this mindset is important and necessary. Continuing a trend of language that equates typical ideas of womanhood as requirements forces trans women to be excessively feminine whether they want to or not just to gain acceptance, and tells the trans girls who cannot for whatever reason medically undergo surgery/HRT that they will never be accepted.

I entirely disagree 100%. Nothing you have said here invalidates my point that you are lying to yourself. Just as you are, I am also pretty passionate about this subject. So please try not to take what I say as an attack.

How one dresses and wears their hair is not on par with something that is a biological trait. If someone is born with 6 fingers, you can't say they have 5 fingers. That is disregarding reality and it is 100% lying to yourself. This is more of a matter between reality and not reality. I am sorry to tell you this, but by human biology, girls do not have penises. Girls also have a different body shape. Again, this is biology, not something like changing ones hair. We are talking about a different set of genes. Different hormones. Different physical appearances.

You can't just claim you have a females body when you don't. What you are trying to do is redefine things that nature has already decided. You can't change it simply by saying, "I don't like it" and "it should be this way." Nature doesn't care what you think, nature isn't going to change just cause you may not like it.

Another example, is I am born with brown hair. I can't leave my hair brown and then claim it's blond. That would be a very profoundly inaccurate statement. Just like having a body of a male and claiming it's a female body. It's not. At least not according to nature.

Now of course there are some deformities that can cause a female to be born with a penis. However, that is a deformity, and it's still a male body organ, not a female one.

Edit:
Basically what I am saying, just to clarify ...
Claiming you have a female body is pointing out something of physical existence that we can actually prove whether or not that person has a female body. I am not saying, you can't consider yourself female. I consider myself female after all, but I would never claim I have a female body, because I don't.
 
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Zendot

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What you said Brabbit is correct, but I think you're missing the point Gigglemuffinz is making.

She is trying to make us question something that we have accepted and have probably never questioned. To question our preconceived and early ingrained notions is a good thing.

And I see her point: she's a girl, therefore her body is a girl's body, is it not?

We all have a notion of what a female body is, but I think there is room to broaden that notion.

In the end, both view points are correct I think, just different concepts or ways to look at it.
 

MarchinBunny

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What you said Brabbit is correct, but I think you're missing the point Gigglemuffinz is making.

Am I? She told me I wasn't misunderstanding. I would assuming missing the point would be misunderstanding would it not?

She is trying to make us question something that we have accepted and have probably never questioned. To question our preconceived and early ingrained notions is a good thing.

I have no issue with questioning things. But there are some things that already have answers.

And I see her point: she's a girl, therefore her body is a girl's body, is it not?

No, that isn't how things work. She is a girl, but her body ISN'T .. that is what makes her transgender. The reason she even has to convince herself her body is that of a girl is because she is uncomfortable otherwise.

Let me show you why the above makes no sense. Let's go back to the 6 fingers thing. Humans typically have 5 fingers.
That person with 6 fingers is human, therefore has 5 fingers, right?

We all have a notion of what a female body is, but I think there is room to broaden that notion.

No, we all don't have a notion of what a female body is. A female body is a female body, something that was decided by nature, not by you and not by anyone else. I mean if we really want to start doing this, fine. Then you will also have to accept that .... Purple is red. Silver is green. A cat is a dog. A bird is a dolphin. A duck is a wolf. A fox is a fish. A bear is a human. Humans can be anything they think they are. The sky is made of marshmallows. The ocean is made of blue jello. The moon is cheese. Cows are actually robots. Mario is actually a lawyer. Peach is actually a hairy buff man. Tacos are actually pizza's. We can't all have different notions of facts. That is not how facts work.

In the end, both view points are correct I think, just different concepts or ways to look at it.

No .. both views are not correct. If you are going to sit there and tell me just because a person identifies as a fox .. they now have a fox's body ... you are going to need an absurd amount of proof and evidence to support such a bold claim. I can look at an image of a fox and an image of a person ... and there is a clear difference. One is actually a fox ... the other is not.
 

Zendot

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I have no issue with questioning things. But there are some things that already have answers.

We have answers for nearly everything. That doesn't mean we can't question or think of them in other ways.

With that I don't mean that we must change our opinion, just to simply question those answers or 'truths'. Some of them, not all, we might even find they're not so real or true as we previously thought.


No, that isn't how things work. She is a girl, but her body ISN'T .. that is what makes her transgender. The reason she even has to convince herself her body is that of a girl is because she is uncomfortable otherwise.

Let me show you why the above makes no sense. Let's go back to the 6 fingers thing. Humans typically have 5 fingers.
That person with 6 fingers is human, therefore has 5 fingers, right?



No, we all don't have a notion of what a female body is. A female body is a female body, something that was decided by nature, not by you and not by anyone else. I mean if we really want to start doing this, fine. Then you will also have to accept that .... Purple is red. Silver is green. A cat is a dog. A bird is a dolphin. A duck is a wolf. A fox is a fish. A bear is a human. Humans can be anything they think they are. The sky is made of marshmallows. The ocean is made of blue jello. The moon is cheese. Cows are actually robots. Mario is actually a lawyer. Peach is actually a hairy buff man. Tacos are actually pizza's. We can't all have different notions of facts. That is not how facts work.



No .. both views are not correct. If you are going to sit there and tell me just because a person identifies as a fox .. they now have a fox's body ... you are going to need an absurd amount of proof and evidence to support such a bold claim. I can look at an image of a fox and an image of a person ... and there is a clear difference. One is actually a fox ... the other is not.

I'm not trying to argue the definition of a female body according to biology standards. I know I may sound a bit strange sometimes but that's because I'm really into philosophy, especially eastern philosophy, and have an open mind to different notions and interpretations, but I'm not crazy (yet, lol).

Besides, you have no idea how much I share your opinion. I'm not transgender, but as someone who likes to think a lot, I have thought about this before: Even after transitioning, the body won't still be 100% of the desired gender. For example, a transgender woman can't still get pregnant, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the chromosomes in her body will still be XY.

But I'm willing to look at it from a different perspective. I don't how else to put it.

Maybe this will help. I mentioned chromosomes and if I understood it correctly the X chromosome is way bigger than the Y chromosome. And the reason for that is because the X contains by far the majority (or all) of our genetic information, and what the Y chromosome does is introduce some changes and variations to the information already contained in the X chromosome. To use computer language, the X is the program or app and the Y is like a small patch.

So, what does this tells us? Well, it tells us that humans are by default female! [emoji54]
And that every male has exactly all the genetic information of a female and vice versa. So, you see, when you look at it that way it's not that big of a stretch to say that a transgender woman's body is female.
 

MarchinBunny

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We have answers for nearly everything. That doesn't mean we can't question or think of them in other ways.

With that I don't mean that we must change our opinion, just to simply question those answers or 'truths'. Some of them, not all, we might even find they're not so real or true as we previously thought.

Right, and this is one of those cases where the answers are true. I mean unless we want to ignore the vast amount of evidence XD.




Besides, you have no idea how much I share your opinion. I'm not transgender, but as someone who likes to think a lot, I have thought about this before: Even after transitioning, the body won't still be 100% of the desired gender. For example, a transgender woman can't still get pregnant, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the chromosomes in her body will still be XY.

You are correct.

But I'm willing to look at it from a different perspective. I don't how else to put it.

Maybe this will help. I mentioned chromosomes and if I understood it correctly the X chromosome is way bigger than the Y chromosome. And the reason for that is because the X contains by far the majority (or all) of our genetic information, and what the Y chromosome does is introduce some changes and variations to the information already contained in the X chromosome. To use computer language, the X is the program or app and the Y is like a small patch.

So, what does this tells us? Well, it tells us that humans are by default female! [emoji54]
And that every male has exactly all the genetic information of a female and vice versa. So, you see, when you look at it that way it's not that big of a stretch to say that a transgender woman's body is female.

See but that is a fallacy. Just because we share genetic information doesn't mean it makes us something we are not. We share a lot of genetics with tons of people. We are even related to every living thing on this planet in some way.

Also if we where to go by the idea that everyone is female and male to some degree, fine ... I agree with that actually. What I don't agree with is that male characteristics can be considered female. No argument will change that fact. Heck, you even sort of proved the point by bringing up the "patch". All male characteristics are part of that patch, so you couldn't possibly consider them female characteristics as they are not from the female side of genetics.
 

gigglemuffinz

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Your strictly biological reading of male and female entirely ignores that for human beings, gender and sex have become two different functions. My statement remains true simply as a statement of gender. It remains true as a product of our society, and our language.

You're an intelligent person Brabbit and I understand what your'e saying. I'm beginning to think perhaps you did misunderstand me. I felt your comparisons a bit extreme when it comes to the fox analogy, and was honestly off base.

It's not a denial of that fact you stated, it's simply the fact that I think we are in awkward place where two different statements can be true. I have a girl's body yes, but I also have a biologically male body. My point ultimately is encouraging those to focus on the validity of their gender identity and how that matters far more. I think saying that what I'm doing is a outright lie is honestly a tad harmful because ignoring the difference between sex and gender in any context dealing with human beings is going to become harmful. It's not a lie and calling it a lie means that I'm not a girl. Because gender and sex are not the same thing, and because I am girl because that is my gender identity, the statement I have a girl's body and yes.. a girl's penis, are correct statements.

When someone describes their male appearance, I find that helping them with the gender aspect has proven to help make people feel a little better. When I help validate that no matter what the world considers them to be, their gender identity is precious and valid and important. No matter what words that a person uses to mentally imagine someone, it will never change who they really are. This is a support site. I'll continue to do what I feel will help people, and I know has helped people.
 
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MarchinBunny

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Your strictly biological reading of male and female entirely ignores that for human beings, gender and sex have become two different functions. My statement remains true simply as a statement of gender. It remains true as a product of our society, and our language. The English language at least will continue to find the statement I make true, and in a support site, I will take every means available to me, and things that have helped in the past find happiness.. and I will do everything I can to help. There is nothing harmful with focusing on one truth if it brings you happiness.

You don't know what the word gender means, and that is the issue here. Even in today's definition of the word gender you are using it wrong. You are making up definitions that do not exist. That isn't how language works gigglemuffinz. You can't just make up new definitions to argue your point. I am actually already separating sex and gender, even though you are claiming I am not. I have a very different view of what gender is than you cause I actually follow the dictionary like one typically is suppose to.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gender

What your physical biological body is, has nothing to do with gender. Psychological traits, the way you dress and behave, is what gender has to do with.
The issue here ... isn't me. It's you. You are misinterpreting on what gender and sex is. You are using definition that don't even exist because you made them up. No one follows them except you.

Also, I would like you to note specifically the oxford dictionary. I am going to quote it here and highlight something of great importance for you.

"The state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"

You are trying to combine sex and gender into one word. You are trying to make biological differences be included into gender, and i'm sorry, but that isn't how this works. Biological difference has to do with your sex, not gender. It doesn't matter if you say you are talking about your gender when you are talking about your body. You are literally making no sense and using words wrong.

You may be stuck on comparing us to animals, or ports where male port goes into female port.. but I consider humans beyond such simplicity. That's part of what makes humans beautiful. That logic doesn't work as well with us, because logic itself doesn't work so well with us. Humans are spontaneous and will always surprise you. Humans are constantly illogical and we find beauty in it.

No, see you are making assumptions. I disagree simply with you specifically. I am not saying humans are that simple, I am saying you are just wrong in the way you are trying to explain things.

I am gendered female, and therefore any body I own is in fact a girl's body

No .. it's not. Your gender is female, your body is male. Stop trying to combine sex and gender. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are making things up. That isn't how it works. Your physical body has nothing to do with gender. So stop it.

even if it's not female from the way you choose to view things.

Because it's not.

WE defined what male and female meant we can adjust them however we see fit.

No we did not. Nature defined it.

We can add extra meanings and change it to suit our changing world. We already have. Sex and gender are already considered separate.

I know they are, and you are using them wrong.

And yes, I find an unnecessary clinging to this biological view of things when it comes to gender performance unhelpful and outdated.

I agree, and I never said I was clinging to simply biological views. I was simply pointing out how your own personal views are wrong according to all and every definition that currently exists of what gender and sex is.

It will continue on this trend as the years go on and science will continue to make new strides to make the lines between the sexes far more blurry.

No, science isn't going to blur the lines of sexes, it will blur the lines of gender. Sex has to do with biology ... science isn't blurring that because that was something decided by nature, not science.

To me, even your fact will continue to get more and more unhelpful as the time goes on.

Really, my views? Unhelpful? When you are the one who hasn't even learned what the words she is using even means?
It may surprise you, but you and I actually agree a lot on probably many things when it comes to sex and gender. The issue here is ... you are making things up and adding things that no one else has but yourself. Saying if your gender is female, then your body is female ... NO cause your body has to do with your sex ... not your gender.

It amazes me how a person who can go on about sex and gender doesn't even seem to understand the differences between the two.

And I do think continuing to enforce such simplicity is something that I'll continue to strive against.

And I do think continuing to enforce such ignorance is something I will continue to strive against.
 
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Marka

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The word we may be looking for here is - embodiment.

(ĕm-bŏd′ē-mənt, ĭm-) n. 1. The act of embodying or the state of being embodied...

Will you please stop this infighting already...

Maybe it's a matter of semantics...

I think that we do use biological sex determination and various aspects of social construct - a bit too loosely...

However, this isn't an either/or situation...

Giving fodder to those who would have us prove ourselves anyway... is not helping anyone!

Nothing is being solved here... I seriously doubt that this is helpful to the OP or anyone else for that matter...

I call - a time out!

-Marka
 

MarchinBunny

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The word we may be looking for here is - embodiment.



Will you please stop this infighting already...

Maybe it's a matter of semantics...

I think that we do use biological sex determination and various aspects of social construct - a bit too loosely...

However, this isn't an either/or situation...

Giving fodder to those who would have us prove ourselves anyway... is not helping anyone!

Nothing is being solved here... I seriously doubt that this is helpful to the OP or anyone else for that matter...

I call - a time out!

-Marka

So as it turns out, it was a misunderstanding after all and slightly due to a stupid mistake on my part in misreading.

"My body is a girl's body." This is something that was stated where I took it to mean that she meant she had a biologically female body. When in reality she actually wrote it correctly and I just misread it. That little apostrophe there changes the meaning completely. As she meant her body is owned by a female. I entirely agree with her on that point.

*bows as low as possible* I am sorry gigglemuffinz, please forgive me.

Also sorry to everyone here as well for this mess. But to reiterate, I do agree with gigglemuffinz now that I understand what she meant.

Also thank you Marka, you are right. This was not helpful to the OP. Again i'm sorry. This was my mistake.
 
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Marka

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So as it turns out, it was a misunderstanding after all and slightly due to a stupid mistake on my part in misreading.

"My body is a girl's body." This is something that was stated where I took it to mean that she meant she had a biologically female body. When in reality she actually wrote it correctly and I just misread it. That little apostrophe there changes the meaning completely. As she meant her body is owned by a female. I entirely agree with her on that point.

*bows as low as possible* I am sorry gigglemuffinz, please forgive me.

Also sorry to everyone here as well for this mess. But to reiterate, I do agree with gigglemuffinz now that I understand what she meant.

Also thank you Marka, you are right. This was not helpful to the OP. Again i'm sorry. This was my mistake.

Oh! Good! Thank you!

I couldn't think of the term earlier today when, I saw the problems start here then... I'm sorry too!

I think that we should talk about this more later... in a new thread perhaps?

Thank you!
-Marka
 

TeddyBearCowboy

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Soooo...

What in the heck is someone who at times can be completely feminine and want to be as girly girl as anyone... Wearing dresses and putting on makeup, wearing bows and lace, and frilly things, and truly feeling they are a girl, but then at other times are a masculine male?

Okay, so you say, well they are just a sissy girl. Hence, a male that has sissy characteristics. Well heck, that is pardon my Cowboy phraseology, but BULLSHIT. You can't just place someone in a category and because they are not always wanting to be female as just a sissygirl.

Where in the spectrum where those who may at times truly relate as the most masculine male and to all of the outside world seem as something off of the Marlboro cowboy advertisements (which I hate cigarettes and never will smoke them) but is such an "iconic" picture of a masculine cowboy and certainly MALE appearance, yet at other times is very much a girl who shaves her legs and wears pink and pretty ribbons and lace and pretty things and wants to be part of the girl crowd and accepted for the feminine part of herself?

There seems to be so much discussion about those who are fully transexual and being completely a girl (or boy), but what about those who are somehow locked in between. And I am not talking bisexual, but rather in relationship as to how they see themselves? You think it is hard being physically a boy who completely associates with being a girl, or a girl who is a boy at heart? Where the %&*^(^* does someone fit who can see themselves at both extremes?

I have no idea where I am going with this post, but I am simply throwing it out there for others to poo poo my comments (if so, leaves a few diapers in the forum for you) or chime in if they happen to experience this same phenomena.

Are there others out there who also experience this? This contrast of two worlds?

I am straight as an arrow in my sexual interests, but yet I have come to realize the very girly side of myself too. Sometimes, okay, maybe sometimes more than sometimes, wishing I could just wear dresses and be in bows and pink and lace? Not as in Drag damn it!!! That's not who I am!!! As that is totally not me!!! But just being a little girl and in pink and silk and such!

The innocent little girl inside of this masculine rough and tough not to be messed with cowboy that I am.

???

:detective3

Please forgive me for being so forthright. Its just this is something that I don't see a lot of other posts about. There are a lot of posts relating to transexuals and such, but I haven't seen a lot of posts with those who see themselves as how they are physically gender identified but yet have feelings of both genders and how that may be affecting their lives and how they manage with this seemingly great conflict.

I myself, will always be my physically assigned gender male, as it who I am. But, in saying that, I cannot deny the little girl inside of me either. It is part of me as much as the leather and cowboy hat cowboy. Two so different worlds that are still the same.
 
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