Has Trump totaly lost the plot ?

CutePrincess

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Please, in this world "I don't believe you, so you must by lying" seems the mantra for most people. We should not defend lies, once we find out they are lies, I don't think gnome is being 100% truthful, or at least not 100% in the right, but at the same time all I have found against him is flawed conclusions. The way the world is today, a well told lie can sound like truth and the truth can sound like a lie.

However, again, you have taken something I said, not in a reply to you, I never mentioned gnome in that post, in fact the example I was referring to was the situation with Clinton, Mueller and the Uranium to Russia. Gnome provided his side of the situation with his conclusion, another provided the counter, I was able to look at both and reach my own conclusion. You seem to want people to believe what you say without proof, sorry that won't work. In fact, if you want people to believe gnome is lying, maybe you should not talk as if responding to him but one that is on the fence and provide the links for people to check things out and draw their own conclusions. In other words, speak to the ones that might be open to what you have to say instead of the one that you feel, or know, will not listen. The fact you brought it back to gnome just shows you are more interested in coming out on top over him.
I have no idea what you are on about. People proven here what he says is wrong. I do not like the idea of "lets give everyone a chance" when it is proven wrong, why should we keep investigating it? It is not "2 sides" that is just giving lies to flourish and spread. I disagree with defending lies because "poor ignored conservative views and fake conspiracy theories" lying is not "another side" or "alternative facts" its lying to mislead, and I have no tolerance for it. Why gnome wants to spread this misinformation, I got no idea, but it is alt right propaganda, you have not proven otherwise so why are you on y back in the first place?

You can see the ripples of what really happens on what the problems are, and gnome sits here trying to suggest we ignore them because trump does other things that harms is personal agenda (some environment issues) This is not how debates work.

also if you know this stuff well enough, that fact check does not do much other then reinforce what you know and seen. Though it can be helpful to know how extreme some source can mislead that you may not see. I also told gnome the issues with wikileaks and he dismissed what I had to say
 
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Drifter

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As a matter of public record Donald Trump has made thousands of false or misleading statements. If we eliminate those statements that might be just ambiguous political rhetoric, we are still left with thousands of false or misleading statements on the record.

Whether or not any of these statements can be considered lies depends on intent. Let's give the president's defenders the benefit of the doubt and admit we can't "prove" the president was deliberately lying, so we assume "innocent until proven guilty" . What we are left with is a president that, more often than not, cannot distinguish between fantasy and fact. I'm not convinced a delusional president is better than a lying president.

We don't necessarily have to make this an all or nothing situation, but that would just leave us with a president that is dishonest sometimes and delusional at other times.

The claim that all politicians are dishonest or delusional is an over-generalization based on common folklore. In other words, it is itself a false and misleading claim. Even if other politicians could be found with a record as bad as Trump's, that would not justify his behavior anymore than murder can be justified by claiming other people commit murder.
 
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Makubird

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As a matter of public record Donald Trump has made thousands of false or misleading statements. If we eliminate those statements that might be just ambiguous political rhetoric, we are still left with thousands of false or misleading statements on the record.

Whether or not any of these statements can be considered lies depends on intent. Let's give the president's defenders the benefit of the doubt and admit we can't "prove" the president was deliberately lying, so we assume "innocent until proven guilty" . What we are left with is a president that, more often than not, cannot distinguish between fantasy and fact. I'm not convinced a delusional president is better than a lying president.

We don't necessarily have to make this an all or nothing situation, but that would just leave us with a president that is dishonest sometimes and delusional at other times.

The claim that all politicians are dishonest or delusional is an over-generalization based on common folklore. In other words, it is itself a false and misleading claim. Even if other politicians could be found with a record as bad as Trump's, that would not justify his behavior anymore than murder can be justified by claiming other people commit murder.
I just heard him repeat again that China is paying for his tariffs, not US companies or citizens. I seriously don’t know if he is lying or delusional.
 

CutePrincess

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I just heard him repeat again that China is paying for his tariffs, not US companies or citizens. I seriously don’t know if he is lying or delusional.
given his track record of his businesses, it is quite possible he does not understand how the business world works. You know that reminds me, with him saying windmills, as the noise they make causes caner, general statements of "global waming" like how he does not know the difference between climate and weather, I am just going to go with a 3rd option drifter left out. He is completely clueless on anything remotely complex that any 6th+ grader understands, and just makes look like what he is talking about, to other people that are largely uninformed.
 

Near

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Yes Snopes is a big problem! And so other so called fact checking sites. I have found them lying on occasion and was very easy to prove. Also Snopes is run by a cat lady and her husband that are divorced now. Snopes also is heavily funded by the Clinton Foundation. Conflict of interest anyone?
Do you have any evidence of this?
 

sallyanne

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Do you have any evidence of this?
No of course not. A frequent tactic of late is to claim that facts are not and Trump has even gone as far as to say that even what we SEE is not true. You would normally hope that people would not fall for that, but obviously, they do.
 

sallyanne

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I just heard him repeat again that China is paying for his tariffs, not US companies or citizens. I seriously don’t know if he is lying or delusional.
That begs the question for sure. 'lying' is a deliberate act to tell a falsehood. You can say something that is not true but believe it to be so and it is not a lie. The only possible 'out' for Trumps astonishing level of lies is that he is so hopelessly ignorant, so uninformed and with the memory of a goldfish that he actually believes his bogus drivel to be true.

So that leaves the choice of trump being either a lying scumbag or a grossly ignorant fool.

some choice, huh?
 

sallyanne

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There are 2 sides, even if it is just those who are willing to give Gnome the benefit of a doubt and those who are trying to shut him down.

I can see where some might see that, but as Drifter said, one can find information to support any belief on the Internet.

Only thing I would find him guilty of is the flawed conclusions, but how many of those explanations actually have proof that things are the other way? Aside from the links from Makubird I have seen very little with support and most come across as differing views or things that allow people to reach their own conclusions. There are sites like Snopes.com, which one can use to fact check and mediabaisfactcheck.com which ranks news sources on: political leaning (ranging from extreme on one end, to least biased to extreme on the other end), Factual reporting and U.S. freedom rank.

You can say Gnome is lying and spreading propaganda, but how am I to know you are not doing the same? Even if links are provided, 2 people can read them and come to different conclusions. I will take snopes reports on individual situations, I did check the deal with Cilinton and Russia on the uranium there and they said it was false. I am also skeptical of news sources that media bias/fact check reports as anything more then center-left to center right and has mixed factual reporting and downright distrustful of anything on the extreme ends and with a low factual reporting.

As long as there is the shadow of a doubt for me, I actually can as without being able to research or check things out for myself, I have no clue who is lying, who is spreading misinformation, etc. This is why I ask for different sources

Please, in this world "I don't believe you, so you must by lying" seems the mantra for most people. We should not defend lies, once we find out they are lies, I don't think gnome is being 100% truthful, or at least not 100% in the right, but at the same time all I have found against him is flawed conclusions. The way the world is today, a well told lie can sound like truth and the truth can sound like a lie.

However, again, you have taken something I said, not in a reply to you, I never mentioned gnome in that post, in fact the example I was referring to was the situation with Clinton, Mueller and the Uranium to Russia. Gnome provided his side of the situation with his conclusion, another provided the counter, I was able to look at both and reach my own conclusion. You seem to want people to believe what you say without proof, sorry that won't work. In fact, if you want people to believe gnome is lying, maybe you should not talk as if responding to him but one that is on the fence and provide the links for people to check things out and draw their own conclusions. In other words, speak to the ones that might be open to what you have to say instead of the one that you feel, or know, will not listen. The fact you brought it back to gnome just shows you are more interested in coming out on top over him.
I dont understand your logic here. You seem to believe that there are two equal and opposite sources of facts on these questions and that simply is not true or even close to true. You can go to EVERY professional media across the world and find the same facts. Even FoxNews doesnt generally flat-out lie. If Trump says something stupid they might try and defend it or not report it, but not even they dont say that provable actual facts are wrong.

Gnome is lying on pretty much everything he says. This is not a question of political partisanship: it is a question of TRUTH and how truth is fighting for its very existence against the likes of Trump and Gnome.

'research it for yourself' is the mantra of flat-earthers, the fools that make morons look like geniuses. We dont have to research much at all. All we have to do is read multiple reports from multiple unconnected sources and work out they are being truthful. We have an entire investigative media that does the researching we cannot do.

No one is trying to 'best' gnome. That would be like fighting a grandma in a wheelchair. We are standing up against blatant lies, false narratives and an appalling belief that alt-right is the truth. It is the essence of 1984.
 

Icewolf

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I dont understand your logic here. You seem to believe that there are two equal and opposite sources of facts on these questions and that simply is not true or even close to true. You can go to EVERY professional media across the world and find the same facts. Even FoxNews doesnt generally flat-out lie. If Trump says something stupid they might try and defend it or not report it, but not even they dont say that provable actual facts are wrong.
It is not the equal an opposite sources of facts, it is how people interpret those facts, and even the news sites have their own spin/interpretation in this day and age
Gnome is lying on pretty much everything he says. This is not a question of political partisanship: it is a question of TRUTH and how truth is fighting for its very existence against the likes of Trump and Gnome.
He might be, he could just be stating his own conclusion. There is only one correct truth, and both sides try to push their version as the correct one.The issue here is one can be oh so wrong on any number of things but be right on one yet no one believes they are right on the one, even with sources and research, because they have been lead to believe the one that is wrong/right is always wrong or lying.
'research it for yourself' is the mantra of flat-earthers, the fools that make morons look like geniuses. We dont have to research much at all. All we have to do is read multiple reports from multiple unconnected sources and work out they are being truthful. We have an entire investigative media that does the researching we cannot do.
Guess what? the stuff you said was "all we had to do"? that is a form of research. It is the kind of research I am asking people to do themselves. The media does the grunt work, sure, but we still have to read, listen, etc. to the reports and come up with our own conclusions. I have found that Gnome was mistaken on quite a few things but I have seen little proof that it is "alt-right".
We are standing up against blatant lies, false narratives and an appalling belief that alt-right is the truth.
So expose the lies, expose the false narratives, but don't try to shut others up and freaking stop with labeling it "alt-right". To reach ones like me with what you are trying to do, and I applaud you for it, you should at least try to cut out the labels that might provoke certain responses. Is what is going on "alt-right"? maybe, maybe not, but to apply that label is just a way to invoke things that are better not invoked. If one can counter the lies and false narratives with facts, those that spread them will find themselves alone, however if one applies a label to it one can get those that normally would be siding with the facts against them. I am all for facts and truth, but I will side with the ones that seem to be a target of having their free-speech inhibited.

As far as my comment on "besting Gnome"? You might not be trying to do that, but remember in this world perception is key. I want people to address the core issues, in your case the blatant lies and false narratives, without labels and calling out others. If others must be called out, try doing it like "those that believe these are the facts" or similar. Call out that side all you want, but try not to call out individuals by name, that latter part is what makes it seem like you are trying to "best" someone.
 
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sallyanne

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It is not the equal an opposite sources of facts, it is how people interpret those facts, and even the news sites have their own spin/interpretation in this day and age

He might be, he could just be stating his own conclusion. There is only one correct truth, and both sides try to push their version as the correct one.The issue here is one can be oh so wrong on any number of things but be right on one yet no one believes they are right on the one, even with sources and research, because they have been lead to believe the one that is wrong/right is always wrong or lying.

Guess what? the stuff you said was "all we had to do"? that is a form of research. It is the kind of research I am asking people to do themselves. The media does the grunt work, sure, but we still have to read, listen, etc. to the reports and come up with our own conclusions. I have found that Gnome was mistaken on quite a few things but I have seen little proof that it is "alt-right".

So expose the lies, expose the false narratives, but don't try to shut others up and freaking stop with labeling it "alt-right". To reach ones like me with what you are trying to do, and I applaud you for it, you should at least try to cut out the labels that might provoke certain responses. Is what is going on "alt-right"? maybe, maybe not, but to apply that label is just a way to invoke things that are better not invoked. If one can counter the lies and false narratives with facts, those that spread them will find themselves alone, however if one applies a label to it one can get those that normally would be siding with the facts against them. I am all for facts and truth, but I will side with the ones that seem to be a target of having their free-speech inhibited.

As far as my comment on "besting Gnome"? You might not be trying to do that, but remember in this world perception is key. I want people to address the core issues, in your case the blatant lies and false narratives, without labels and calling out others. If others must be called out, try doing it like "those that believe these are the facts" or similar. Call out that side all you want, but try not to call out individuals by name, that latter part is what makes it seem like you are trying to "best" someone.
I do kinda get research okay, with a PhD and all that. Deciding to read media reports from a few sources might sound like research to you, but it isn't really any such thing. It is collectively consuming the actual research of others. Choosing what you will or will not believe is the exact opposite of research.

Saying that much of what gnome says is lies is not hard. In fact, it is easy since much of what he says is provable nonsense. And alt-right IS a label that has validity and where Gnome is concerned, fits perfectly. Only people who believe such tripe as he posts can fit in this extreme right-wing lunatic asylum.

I take exception to this sentence you wrote:

"I am all for facts and truth, but I will side with the ones that seem to be a target of having their free-speech inhibited."

That tells me you are not in fact, interested in facts and truth as a primary endeavour. Being for 'facts and truth' is a PRINCIPLE and principles are not subject to circumstances. They simple stand on their own.

No one is attempting to silence Gnome or deny him his free speech, but freedom to speak does not mean the absence of criticism or mockery of that speech. He lies repeatedly in his claims and everyone but you sees this and is willing to call it out. For some reason, you seem unwilling to call it for what it is - blatant lies.

You can defend free speech and defend truth at the same time. At least I can, and most others here. You seem to have trouble with that tho.
 

Icewolf

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I do kinda get research okay, with a PhD and all that. Deciding to read media reports from a few sources might sound like research to you, but it isn't really any such thing. It is collectively consuming the actual research of others. Choosing what you will or will not believe is the exact opposite of research.

Saying that much of what gnome says is lies is not hard. In fact, it is easy since much of what he says is provable nonsense. And alt-right IS a label that has validity and where Gnome is concerned, fits perfectly. Only people who believe such tripe as he posts can fit in this extreme right-wing lunatic asylum.

I take exception to this sentence you wrote:

"I am all for facts and truth, but I will side with the ones that seem to be a target of having their free-speech inhibited."

That tells me you are not in fact, interested in facts and truth as a primary endeavour. Being for 'facts and truth' is a PRINCIPLE and principles are not subject to circumstances. They simple stand on their own.

No one is attempting to silence Gnome or deny him his free speech, but freedom to speak does not mean the absence of criticism or mockery of that speech. He lies repeatedly in his claims and everyone but you sees this and is willing to call it out. For some reason, you seem unwilling to call it for what it is - blatant lies.

You can defend free speech and defend truth at the same time. At least I can, and most others here. You seem to have trouble with that tho.
Here is a small fact: I don't have cable, or even broadcast TV aside from a few channels my ISP provides through a roku stick as part of my service. I get my news from internet links, my father who checks Fox News and shares some things with me, topics like this, and bits and pieces from other places. How am I supposed to know what the "alt-right" is? How am I supposed to know who is lying, blatantly or not? How am I supposed to tell who is being truthful when all I am seeing is divisive speech and comments? I need to be able to at least check the results of other's research, in doing my own. Research can be used to establish or confirm facts, I try to do research that does the confirmation in things like this. I have found it a fact that Gnome has either lied or gotten a faulty conclusion, you want to treat him being "alt-right" as a fact, to me that is an opinion. We can only agree to disagree here, at least till I meet him or see an actual alt-right movement in action. Maybe things are clearer for you and others who get more media then I do, but I am trying to get sources without divisive commentary for myself and others like me. Maybe all the "issues I have" are based in the idea I am not as exposed to things like you and others are, rural republican and I mean rural, in a conservative stronghold. I could also have views based on my upbringing, who can say for sure? The main thing though is I was country raised, city educated and can see where others are coming from in their views. I don't know how you were raised, but maybe some of the issue you are having is a failure to see things from different views, in this case one that might not have seen, read, or heard what you have.
 
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sallyanne

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Here is a small fact: I don't have cable, or even broadcast TV aside from a few channels my ISP provides through a roku stick as part of my service. I get my news from internet links, my father who checks Fox News and shares some things with me, topics like this, and bits and pieces from other places. How am I supposed to know what the "alt-right" is? How am I supposed to know who is lying, blatantly or not? How am I supposed to tell who is being truthful when all I am seeing is divisive speech and comments? I need to be able to at least check the results of other's research, in doing my own. Research can be used to establish or confirm facts, I try to do research that does the confirmation in things like this. I have found it a fact that Gnome has either lied or gotten a faulty conclusion, you want to treat him being "alt-right" as a fact, to me that is an opinion. We can only agree to disagree here, at least till I meet him or see an actual alt-right movement in action. Maybe things are clearer for you and others who get more media then I do, but I am trying to get sources without divisive commentary for myself and others like me. Maybe all the "issues I have" are based in the idea I am not as exposed to things like you and others are, rural republican and I mean rural, in a conservative stronghold. I could also have views based on my upbringing, who can say for sure? The main thing though is I was country raised, city educated and can see where others are coming from in their views. I don't know how you were raised, but maybe some of the issue you are having is a failure to see things from different views, in this case one that might not have seen, read, or heard what you have.
Wow. Your sources are foxnews and a few bits and pieces??? I hate to say it but you are really quite uninformed and since you have the internet, there is no excuse for that. Go to CNN, MSNBC or the like. Read newspapers and actually get a hold of some facts. Don't swallow the TRumpian 'fake news' garbage. Actually get informed. Stop listening to your father and his foxnews bias and find out what is really out there. Then, when you criticise the use of the term 'alt right' you might actually know what it means first.

Your problem seems to be that you insist on seeing FACTS from different views. That is foolish. Facts remain facts no matter how you view them. Anything else is called OPINION.

Then ask yourself why 99% of the GLOBAL media says one thing and Gnome and the rest of the trumpists say something else. Remember, Trump is the person who said that the F35 jet is literally invisible and that aircraft carriers should be steam-powered. And yes, there is video of that.
 

CutePrincess

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Wow. Your sources are foxnews and a few bits and pieces??? I hate to say it but you are really quite uninformed and since you have the internet, there is no excuse for that. Go to CNN, MSNBC or the like. Read newspapers and actually get a hold of some facts. Don't swallow the TRumpian 'fake news' garbage. Actually get informed. Stop listening to your father and his foxnews bias and find out what is really out there. Then, when you criticise the use of the term 'alt right' you might actually know what it means first.

Your problem seems to be that you insist on seeing FACTS from different views. That is foolish. Facts remain facts no matter how you view them. Anything else is called OPINION.

Then ask yourself why 99% of the GLOBAL media says one thing and Gnome and the rest of the trumpists say something else. Remember, Trump is the person who said that the F35 jet is literally invisible and that aircraft carriers should be steam-powered. And yes, there is video of that.
Exactly, I am confused why icewolf wants to look down on me for using the term "alt right" when it is exactly what it is. Alt right is lies and misinformation that supports exteme right views. Icewolf even you said gnome reached faluty conclusions. Those conclusions are based off alt right progerganda, stop looking down on me for using this term when it is simply what is going on here.
 

Moo

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Only people who believe such tripe as he posts can fit in this extreme right-wing lunatic asylum.
General rule for debates:
  • Saying a point of view is 'lunacy' is generally okay, though be prepared to back up that claim strongly.
  • Implying that people are 'lunatics' is generally treated like a personal insult, and is not okay.
 
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