Eternal Damnation

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Jussen

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Please don't jump on me lol :sad: I know the majority of adisc-ites are very understanding/open about things regarding sexuality and religion, but I would like an intelligent answer or maybe even justification toward "perverse intimacy." I doubt myself on a lot of things, and I would just like some reassurance :eek:

The topic of hell and damnation has been an issue with me for quite some time, especially with my present circumstances...

I live with my aunt and uncle due to a custody dispute with my parents that eventually carried over to their threshold - but that aside, they're extremely religious, so these questions have been haunting me even more so lately.

Will I go to hell for having a male partner? Would God hate me for having a sexual desire towards diapers? My church condemns both behaviors and, by church law, I've been excommunicated ipso facto or latae sententiae. I receive all "sacraments" and do the whole catholic thing, but the one thing I don't agree with is the topic of sexuality. How is it wrong?

If somebody could grant some enlightenment on this topic, it would be greatly appreciated. I ask that nobody flame religions here, as I know its a bit of a touchy issue...

Thanks for reading :sweatdrop:

-Justin
 

Boogeyman

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Dude, since God knows everything, and he made everything, he wouldn't hate you. That would be hypocritical.
 

Trevor

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If you believe in your religion and it says that those things are bad and you will go to Hell for doing them, then you can either change your behavior, change what you believe, or believe that your actions will lead you to Hell. Some might say that changing your beliefs in this matter is simply an effort to assuage your guilt over sinful behavior and redefine "goodness" to suit yourself. I have to look at it in more practical terms. For the record, even when I was religious, I didn't buy into Hell as a literal place, so perhaps my bias shows.

If God exists (I tend to think he doesn't, but for purposes of this post, I'm going to pretend that he does rather than keep dithering back and forth- I'm also sticking with a nominally Christian god since that fits the OP's question), does he tell us to do the right thing because it is right, or could he have just as easily told us the opposite? Is God a teacher, giving us the best course for life or is he whimsical, deciding what is right and wrong and having people suffer for it? I prefer the teacher model, which means that ultimately questions of right and wrong are ours to resolve, and that religious teachings are a guideline to hew to right and avoid wrong.

If that is the case, I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with homosexuality. The worst I can see is that if everyone practiced it, our species would die out. There seems little risk of that, so where is the harm if two consenting adults find love? What clothes one chooses to wear likewise seems morally neutral, particularly if not flaunted in an openly sexual context. Maybe upon further reflection you'll come to different decision, but I think you're going to have to give the matter some thought over time in order to be satisfied with the outcome.
 

Charlie

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I'd suggest leaving your church. Your sexuality isn't going to change (most likely), and being around people condemning it is only going to bring you suffering...

There's plenty of Christians and churches out there who have no problem with it at all, and plenty of Christian thinkers who say it's alright. Some churches just seem to cling onto obscure Bible passages as a means to support their homophobia.
I'd look in to finding a better church, but obviously I don't quite know your situation and how easy that would be.
You could just bite your tongue and ignore the bad bits in the mean time.
 

Jussen

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If you believe in your religion and it says that those things are bad and you will go to Hell for doing them, then you can either change your behavior, change what you believe, or believe that your actions will lead you to Hell. Some might say that changing your beliefs in this matter is simply an effort to assuage your guilt over sinful behavior and redefine "goodness" to suit yourself. I have to look at it in more practical terms. For the record, even when I was religious, I didn't buy into Hell as a literal place, so perhaps my bias shows.

If God exists (I tend to think he doesn't, but for purposes of this post, I'm going to pretend that he does rather than keep dithering back and forth- I'm also sticking with a nominally Christian god since that fits the OP's question), does he tell us to do the right thing because it is right, or could he have just as easily told us the opposite? Is God a teacher, giving us the best course for life or is he whimsical, deciding what is right and wrong and having people suffer for it? I prefer the teacher model, which means that ultimately questions of right and wrong are ours to resolve, and that religious teachings are a guideline to hew to right and avoid wrong.

If that is the case, I have a hard time seeing what is wrong with homosexuality. The worst I can see is that if everyone practiced it, our species would die out. There seems little risk of that, so where is the harm if two consenting adults find love? What clothes one chooses to wear likewise seems morally neutral, particularly if not flaunted in an openly sexual context. Maybe upon further reflection you'll come to different decision, but I think you're going to have to give the matter some thought over time in order to be satisfied with the outcome.
I think I need to reflect on that...

Thanks a lot :)
 
B

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The Episcopal and Lutheran churches are more accepting of gay members than the Catholics ever will, and the liturgy/theology is about 95% the same.
 

Jussen

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The Episcopal and Lutheran churches are more accepting of gay members than the Catholics ever will, and the liturgy/theology is about 95% the same.
I've grown up Catholic and I know that its authority comes directly from the bishops and Pope in unison, which, after reading and studying and analyzing to Hell and back, were in fact given no small amount of divine "say-so" in the grand scheme of things.

I really think it's just a matter of what was put to the root, so to speak; I grew up Catholic, it's only natural to fear a hierarchy...
 

Fire2box

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Well I never seen the bible or anyone mention that diapers are a sin. As for homosexuality that's a different matter. But I am not gay or even bi and I can't say what god thinks is a sin.

I think my major problem with homosexuality these days is just that it doesn't make sense on the reproductive scale. Two woman can't have babies and two men can't either. So either way its going against nature and I guess that just means its a fluke/mistake, but if you like it live with it I guess. But at the same time its impossible to have kids with your spouse.
 

Jussen

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Well I never seen the bible or anyone mention that diapers are a sin. As for homosexuality that's a different matter. But I am not gay or even bi and I can't say what god thinks is a sin.

I think my major problem with homosexuality these days is just that it doesn't make sense on the reproductive scale. Two woman can't have babies and two men can't either. So either way its going against nature and I guess that just means its a fluke/mistake, but if you like it live with it I guess. But at the same time its impossible to have kids with your spouse.
True.. but.. why is it okay for a straight couple to perform sex if one or both of them is unable to bear/give life?
 

starshine

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I've grown up Catholic and I know that its authority comes directly from the bishops and Pope in unison, which, after reading and studying and analyzing to Hell and back, were in fact given no small amount of divine "say-so" in the grand scheme of things.

I really think it's just a matter of what was put to the root, so to speak; I grew up Catholic, it's only natural to fear a hierarchy...
I've grown up Catholic as well, and my church (nor any one I have been to) has any problem with gays. The way they've always taught me, is that God wouldn't make something he doesn't love. So in short, no, you're not going to go to hell for loving another man.
 

Jussen

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I've grown up Catholic as well, and my church (nor any one I have been to) has any problem with gays. The way they've always taught me, is that God wouldn't make something he doesn't love. So in short, no, you're not going to go to hell for loving another man.
^^ thanks abby :hug:
 

dogboy

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Well I can give you some first hand information as to whether you will go to heaven or hell because of your sexual orientation and use of diapers. I have lead a rather full life, sexually, having had sex with both males and females. I have enjoyed diapers all of my life, and sometimes make a rather pig of myself. That being said, in 1985 I died and went through the tunnel of light. I saw my parents and others waiting for me on the other side. Just as I got close, I reseeded back and found myself back in the parking lot of MedChoice. I know there's a lot of debate about going through the light, but I was there, so either it's a true phenominon, or there's no heaven or hell to worry about.

Either way, you didn't ask to be gay, or to be attracted to diapers. I know we have free thought and can choose between what we perceive as right or wrong, but I think hell is reserved for far worse things. At worse, gay people who die have to spend 100 years trying to redecorate McDonalds and come up with a good menu. Believe me, that's punishment enough.
 

Jussen

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Well I can give you some first hand information as to whether you will go to heaven or hell because of your sexual orientation and use of diapers. I have lead a rather full life, sexually, having had sex with both males and females. I have enjoyed diapers all of my life, and sometimes make a rather pig of myself. That being said, in 1985 I died and went through the tunnel of light. I saw my parents and others waiting for me on the other side. Just as I got close, I reseeded back and found myself back in the parking lot of MedChoice. I know there's a lot of debate about going through the light, but I was there, so either it's a true phenominon, or there's no heaven or hell to worry about.

Either way, you didn't ask to be gay, or to be attracted to diapers. I know we have free thought and can choose between what we perceive as right or wrong, but I think hell is reserved for far worse things. At worse, gay people who die have to spend 100 years trying to redecorate McDonalds and come up with a good menu. Believe me, that's punishment enough.
thanks dog :hug:

that means a lot to hear...
 

Dark Bringer

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There's nothing in the catholic teaching that says it's a sin to wear diapers. Lust and gluttony are sins so it would probably be wrong if you let diapers take over your life. As a matter of a fact, I've read that some Catholic parishes have the girls wear a cloth diaper under their first communion dress. So if anything, the church should bless your interest.
I don't see what's wrong with being gay. It makes absolutely no sense that God would make you a certain way and then hate you for it. (Unless God is bipolar.)
 

Chillhouse

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broken down into sections so it's not as confusing.

I'm Going to Hell, Who's Coming With Me?

Seriously, everything that has to do with sex and sexuality is a sin within the Catholic church:
-Homosexuality
-Sexual thoughts
-Lustual desire
-Sex before marriage
-Living together before marriage
-Sex within marriage if the intention is not to conceive a child
-Birth control
-Checking a girl out
-Masturbation
-Anything about sex that makes us human, and not baby-making robots

Quite an extensive list. Everyone's going to hell. Especially if you include the masturbation one, I'm burning in hell about a 1000 times over. If you wanna take it literaly, just by having this fetish you have an automatic ticket to hell.

History of Homosexuality
In order to understand the church's position on homosexuality, we have to understand where it comes from. Thousands of years ago primitive man started forming religions based on the things he couldn't properly understand. Lightening, stars, the sun, earthquakes, ect... One day, these collections of people realised there were men and women who acted differently. Instead of courting members of the opposite sex, they courted members of the same sex (or tried too at least).

Now, primitive man (and often, modern man) is a fickle guy. He doesn't like people who are different from him. Man is inherently afraid of differences. It's an evolutionary trait. So these same-sex courters, these 'homosexuals', being different from everyone else, were pretty much persecuted. And they have been for thousands of years. They still are today.

I've got a real lack of formal learnings on the psychology behind sexuality and fetishes, but I'ma try and explain this well enough. We all have fetishes. Everyone one of us. I'm using that word loosely, though. Some men like big breasted women, some like small breasted women, some women like big dicked men, some women like small dicked men, some men like big dicked men. That's a fetish. Homosexuality just happened to be the most common non-straight fetish.

Had diaper fetishism been more common that homosexuality 10 000 years ago, you can bet your powdered behind we'd be the ones written about in the bible and fighting for our rights. After all, who gives a damn what we do in our spare time?


What is Love?
Physicaly and neuroligicly, straight love and gay love is the exact same thing. The same parts of the brain are used. The same chemicals are released into the body. The same chocolat icecream is eaten after a breakup.

We're all human beings, with basic human needs. Sexuality is on of them. Be you homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, monosexual, polysexual, bisexual, or whatever have you, we all have the need for sexual pleasure. It's evolution. We're so damned sexually promiscuis (just like a lot of animals on this planet) because it's a survival trait. The more a species breeds, the more likely it is going to survive. Just like us, other animals exhibit homosexual behavior.

There have been studies that "prove" that homosexuality is a direct result of a persons environment. There have also been studies that "prove" that there is a gene that influences homosexuality. Since there isn't much proof either way, I'd imagine that it's a combination of both.
No matter what, though, it's not your fault. And you didn't "choose to be this way", as my conservative cousin likes to believe. So why would a God, knowing full well about the consequences, make on of his loving creations a homosexual just so he will burn in hell?


Conclusion
When I was Catholic and attended mass every Sunday, the Preacher didn't frown on homosexuals, but he didn't like the idea of gay sex. He said that God loves all men and women, be they gay or straight. Most people in my congregation accepted gays and gay marriage.

Course, this is Canada. Our conservatives are like your liberals.
 

Jussen

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broken down into sections so it's not as confusing.

I'm Going to Hell, Who's Coming With Me?

Seriously, everything that has to do with sex and sexuality is a sin within the Catholic church:
-Homosexuality
-Sexual thoughts
-Lustual desire
-Sex before marriage
-Living together before marriage
-Sex within marriage if the intention is not to conceive a child
-Birth control
-Checking a girl out
-Masturbation
-Anything about sex that makes us human, and not baby-making robots

Quite an extensive list. Everyone's going to hell. Especially if you include the masturbation one, I'm burning in hell about a 1000 times over. If you wanna take it literaly, just by having this fetish you have an automatic ticket to hell.

History of Homosexuality
In order to understand the church's position on homosexuality, we have to understand where it comes from. Thousands of years ago primitive man started forming religions based on the things he couldn't properly understand. Lightening, stars, the sun, earthquakes, ect... One day, these collections of people realised there were men and women who acted differently. Instead of courting members of the opposite sex, they courted members of the same sex (or tried too at least).

Now, primitive man (and often, modern man) is a fickle guy. He doesn't like people who are different from him. Man is inherently afraid of differences. It's an evolutionary trait. So these same-sex courters, these 'homosexuals', being different from everyone else, were pretty much persecuted. And they have been for thousands of years. They still are today.

I've got a real lack of formal learnings on the psychology behind sexuality and fetishes, but I'ma try and explain this well enough. We all have fetishes. Everyone one of us. I'm using that word loosely, though. Some men like big breasted women, some like small breasted women, some women like big dicked men, some women like small dicked men, some men like big dicked men. That's a fetish. Homosexuality just happened to be the most common non-straight fetish.

Had diaper fetishism been more common that homosexuality 10 000 years ago, you can bet your powdered behind we'd be the ones written about in the bible and fighting for our rights. After all, who gives a damn what we do in our spare time?


What is Love?
Physicaly and neuroligicly, straight love and gay love is the exact same thing. The same parts of the brain are used. The same chemicals are released into the body. The same chocolat icecream is eaten after a breakup.

We're all human beings, with basic human needs. Sexuality is on of them. Be you homosexual, heterosexual, asexual, monosexual, polysexual, bisexual, or whatever have you, we all have the need for sexual pleasure. It's evolution. We're so damned sexually promiscuis (just like a lot of animals on this planet) because it's a survival trait. The more a species breeds, the more likely it is going to survive. Just like us, other animals exhibit homosexual behavior.

There have been studies that "prove" that homosexuality is a direct result of a persons environment. There have also been studies that "prove" that there is a gene that influences homosexuality. Since there isn't much proof either way, I'd imagine that it's a combination of both.
No matter what, though, it's not your fault. And you didn't "choose to be this way", as my conservative cousin likes to believe. So why would a God, knowing full well about the consequences, make on of his loving creations a homosexual just so he will burn in hell?


Conclusion
When I was Catholic and attended mass every Sunday, the Preacher didn't frown on homosexuals, but he didn't like the idea of gay sex. He said that God loves all men and women, be they gay or straight. Most people in my congregation accepted gays and gay marriage.

Course, this is Canada. Our conservatives are like your liberals.
:D thanks chill, I appreciate your opinion on this :hug:
 

Chillhouse

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No prob.



As a matter of a fact, I've read that some Catholic parishes have the girls wear a cloth diaper under their first communion dress. So if anything, the church should bless your interest.
I don't see what's wrong with being gay. It makes absolutely no sense that God would make you a certain way and then hate you for it. (Unless God is bipolar.)
Read on the internet? Yeah, I've read that too. From what I've figured out, that whole diaper under the communual dress thing appears to be a fetish hoax. Turns out there was like one person going around to all these websites (like yahoo answers and Answerbag) and claiming that it's true. But that's just one person, and I've never heard of that happening in real life.

As a matter of fact, I've never seen any kind of record other than internet posts that that is true.
 

teddy564339

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I don't think it would be really helpful here for me to start debating over the details of religious doctrine or the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism...so instead I'll take another route.


You have to remember that it is ultimately up to you to decide what you want to believe. This is hard to do as a teenager but as you get older you start figuring out who you are and where you stand on things.

Some people believe in analytically looking at all of these issues and coming up with a mental resolution. There's nothing wrong with that if that's how you are...if you get satisfaction and peace from being able to figure out a solution to the problem, then that's probably the best way to figure things out.

But for other people, they get more closure and peace concerning an issue by looking inward and trusting your conscience...or some people might refer to it as intuition. If you find yourself inwardly believing something again and again and again, I think it only does harm to fight it with yourself just because of what other people say. If someone else mentions something that you find changes your mind and you agree with, then that's fine. But if you live and believe for other people instead of yourself, then you won't be happy.

So the way I see it is this...if you inwardly feel like nothing is wrong with homosexuality, I think you should believe that and that you're not going to hell simply because of it. If you ever hear or learn something that makes you strongly feel like you need to change your stance on it, then fine. But the key thing is that YOU are in control of your beliefs, not anyone else...and the change would be yours alone to make.
 

Fire2box

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True.. but.. why is it okay for a straight couple to perform sex if one or both of them is unable to bear/give life?
I guess since they are designed to have sex with each other and miracles can happen? Butt's and mouths weren't designed for sexual acts I think. :p

Though the male G-spot is in the butt I think. <_>
 

Charlie

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I guess since they are designed to have sex with each other and miracles can happen? Butt's and mouths weren't designed for sexual acts I think. :p

Though the male G-spot is in the butt I think. <_>
Well the 'male G-spot' is just the prostate gland, so it's not like it's there just for sexual pleasure.
 
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