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Maxx

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What the hell was this thing about in the first place?

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Oh! Taxes! Congratulations on being done, Maxx. I got mine in and e-filed on the 14th. Meant to verify they were "officially accepted," but forgot. Came back on the 16th to a couple of "they've been accepted" email messages. *phew*

Thanks, and congratulations to you.

I still do the paper version, although everything is calculated on a spreadsheet of my own design and records are archived electronically. Its just a thing I, guess, like dressing in black and walking it down to the post office on the 15th.

Any bets the kids change their tune in a few years when they're actually paying taxes? That assumes the economy recovers enough that they can.
 

the0silent0alchemist

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im curious what you mean by change their tune.. and what is that 'tune' as someone whos minimally employed more due to education pressures then overall lack of effort to get one, im curious.
 
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Maxx

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im curious what you mean by change their tune.. and what is that 'tune' as someone whos minimally employed more due to education pressures then overall lack of effort to get one, im curious.

Right now, they're they're in the rather insular university environment surrounded by academics and young, idealistic peers who are virtually all extremely liberal in their views. Tenure removes a lot of real world pressure to perform for professors, and for the most part, students know where their next meal is coming from.

Once people get out in the real world where its all on you to provide for yourself and your family, views tend to change. Especially towards government entities who always seem to have their hand in your pocket looking for more.
 

Fruitkitty

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Any bets the kids change their tune in a few years when they're actually paying taxes? That assumes the economy recovers enough that they can.

I did pay taxes this year, thank-you very much. I filed by paper and sent it off as well as my estimated quarterly taxes a few days before the deadline.

Furthermore, I assure you, I got taxed in a much more unfair manner than you did, and unless you are very, very well off, I almost certainly paid a much higher percent of my overall income than you did.

You know, there's a certain saying about making assumptions...
 

the0silent0alchemist

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Right now, they're they're in the rather insular university environment surrounded by academics and young, idealistic peers who are virtually all extremely liberal in their views. Tenure removes a lot of real world pressure to perform for professors, and for the most part, students know where their next meal is coming from.

Once people get out in the real world where its all on you to provide for yourself and your family, views tend to change. Especially towards government entities who always seem to have their hand in your pocket looking for more.

the ppl im nearest, the liberals also have a scorching distrust of the government. (ironically, the liral party in australia is the equivalen of the republicans, oldish fashioned, conservative, good at the economy)

a d alot of us in my uni have jobs, some live on rent etc, we aint stupid. we know whats coming, (so dont blame me if i dont feel massive;ly keen to get out there in the cold.)
 
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Right now, they're they're in the rather insular university environment surrounded by academics and young, idealistic peers who are virtually all extremely liberal in their views. Tenure removes a lot of real world pressure to perform for professors, and for the most part, students know where their next meal is coming from.

Once people get out in the real world where its all on you to provide for yourself and your family, views tend to change. Especially towards government entities who always seem to have their hand in your pocket looking for more.

Actually, your read on Tenure, performance, and the university system is incorrect in today's environment, unfortunately.

That's been addressed elsewhere, I'm sure, at least on the state-school level. Very quickly: tenure isn't any longer, and the faculty who have stayed on in academia to earn terminal degrees at great personal and fiscal suffering now get the fun of working for less, being treated like shit from all angles, AND being dismissed for no good reason. It's a bad scene, and very different from how things were even 10 years ago.

With respect to taxes: how do you do yours? I always am silently amused when people are due a multi-thousand dollar refund, and think this is a good thing. The truth of the matter, of course, is that this means you've screwed up and given the government your money interest-free to use for the year. As for me, I like to come out dead even.

This year, after the $20 e-filing fee, I came out $1 under. So I'd say that I'm bang-on where I'd like to be insofar as how much money is owed versus estimated.
 

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@Maxx -
My points on education have been provided by other people, no need to rehash them.

Also, on taxes - paid $700. For a college kid, that's not a fun proportion, but eh, that's life.

Additionally, you have no idea what most people in college seem to study, except to throw out the usual strawman of extreme liberalism. For the most part, I'm not being taught to work with the working classes to bring out the glorious revolution or the steps needed to take control of the means of production. Unless you think curriculum planning and archival research in letters repositories is this?
 
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This applies to BC only then. We have no such rebate. Families under $160,000 get $1000 rebate and individuals making less then $80,000 get $300, both split amongst three payments.

The GST is a national tax. The GST rebate applies equally across Canada.

You mean like how the price of oil has gone down, our dollar is at parity, yet gas prices have risen? Don't have to lower prices to undercut competitors, when the competitors also aren't lowering.

Down? Dude, oil isn't at $15 a barrel anymore, and probably never will be again. The only way I see oil going is up, a lot.

So, there's a giant conspiracy to keep gas prices high, ya right, like the one where the government has proof of aliens but is keeping it hidden.

The fuel business has a fairly small profit margin, and lots of competition, and less sales per customer due to higher fuel efficiency. The biggest component of fuel price is tax.

Yet when the dollar dropped, prices were able to rise quite quickly. Funny how that happened.

No evidence, speculation, it's all relative anyway. If there really was large profit to be made, someone else would get into that business, and try to take customers with a little less profit.


You can't make your own gas. It's not bull at all, supply and demand have been thrown out the window regarding gas prices. The "free market" has been broken for quite some time.

Not true, you could make your own gas. I should have used the word fuel though. There are many types of fuel, some are easier to make than others.

The free market is working just fine, supply is limited, demand is increasing. Every year millions of gas engines are added to the worlds supply.

If you think it's interesting now, wait a few years, almost all the oil field leases in the past few years have gone to national state oil companies.
Countries without a state oil company, may find their supply of oil a bit limited.

As would be the case of western products shipped to southern Ontario, yet prices are disproportionate amongst northern and southern still uniformly.

It's always going to be more expensive where you have fewer customers and higher costs.

For business and people, not the government. It would screw tax revenue.

What? That doesn't make any sense at all.


You can ask that about any tax. Pointless question. It's used to circumvent income tax in the U.S. due to the capital gains tax being significantly lower.

It's not pointless at all. The government has to get it's money from somewhere. I prefer taxes that do not penalize people for making decisions that will save the government money in the future.
A high consumption lifestyle adds costs to government, and that's where the government should be getting it's tax revenue.

There are crater sized loopholes if you have the buying power to abuse them. Closing the gaps that are used to circumvent income tax is a much more reasonable plan.

Really!! Would you care to point those out, instead of just making baseless claims?
There are big gaps in income tax that can never be closed. If I take a cash payment, and then spend it on a consumable item, investigating and proving that would cost many times more than the tax revenue it would generate. Unsustainable.
A consumption tax costs less to administer, less to investigate avoidence, and is more equatable amongst different income groups.
People who are low income and low consumers, may actually come out ahead since the rebate is based on averages.
 
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Maxx

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Actually, your read on Tenure, performance, and the university system is incorrect in today's environment, unfortunately.

That's been addressed elsewhere, I'm sure, at least on the state-school level. Very quickly: tenure isn't any longer, and the faculty who have stayed on in academia to earn terminal degrees at great personal and fiscal suffering now get the fun of working for less, being treated like shit from all angles, AND being dismissed for no good reason. It's a bad scene, and very different from how things were even 10 years ago.

With respect to taxes: how do you do yours? I always am silently amused when people are due a multi-thousand dollar refund, and think this is a good thing. The truth of the matter, of course, is that this means you've screwed up and given the government your money interest-free to use for the year. As for me, I like to come out dead even.

This year, after the $20 e-filing fee, I came out $1 under. So I'd say that I'm bang-on where I'd like to be insofar as how much money is owed versus estimated.


Estimated, quarterly. Convenience fees, like your $20, are another thing I rebel against on principal whenever possible.
 

the0silent0alchemist

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on principal? i apologize if ive misinterperated bu t once thats often said, it usally entails that it has a practical reasoning behind it.but you dont want to go with it.
 
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Mako

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The GST is a national tax. The GST rebate applies equally across Canada.
GST was not exempt on the things named. I don't know how to make that any clearer then I already have. So it's irrelevent to pring it up.

Down? Dude, oil isn't at $15 a barrel anymore, and probably never will be again. The only way I see oil going is up, a lot.
Strawman. Never made that proposition. Oil was much more around the same time last year.

So, there's a giant conspiracy to keep gas prices high, ya right, like the one where the government has proof of aliens but is keeping it hidden.
Yay more strawmen!

The fuel business has a fairly small profit margin, and lots of competition, and less sales per customer due to higher fuel efficiency. The biggest component of fuel price is tax.
So why have they been reporting record profits?

No evidence, speculation, it's all relative anyway. If there really was large profit to be made, someone else would get into that business, and try to take customers with a little less profit.
No evidence, speculation.

Not true, you could make your own gas. I should have used the word fuel though. There are many types of fuel, some are easier to make than others.
So I take a specific example and you take it out of context for a general one. Cut the bullshit fallacies.

The free market is working just fine, supply is limited, demand is increasing. Every year millions of gas engines are added to the worlds supply.
Supply isn't as limited to cause random spikes and falls in prices as they have been in many areas.

It's always going to be more expensive where you have fewer customers and higher costs.
No shit. That wasn't the claim, once again you present another strawman argument. My claim was the price was disproportionate taking in all the factors it doesn't account for such a large discrepancy.

What? That doesn't make any sense at all.
Because you haven't been following properly. My response was not stating a consumption tax in lieu of an income tax would save money for the government, but that it would screw over tax revenue.

It's not pointless at all. The government has to get it's money from somewhere. I prefer taxes that do not penalize people for making decisions that will save the government money in the future.
A high consumption lifestyle adds costs to government, and that's where the government should be getting it's tax revenue.
Yes, you can. You can make the same sentiment about consumption stating your penalizing people for having the income to purchase things. You can make this sentiment about ANY tax. The purpose of the capital gains tax increase was due to it being abused to avoid paying so much income tax in the higher tax brackets. Hence where Warren Buffet's famous proclamation comes from, stating with all the loopholes he can pay less in taxes then his secretary does. Which is absurd. A consumption tax doesn't fix this, it only makes it easier to avoid taxation within the nation.

Really!! Would you care to point those out, instead of just making baseless claims?
I did, you've just been to busy setting up strawmen to pay attention. A consumption tax is avoidable for the most part, especially on items that would carry heavier revenue or the government by purchasing from where the tax in non-existent or significantly lower. It only spurs international purchasing and other nations economies.

There are big gaps in income tax that can never be closed. If I take a cash payment, and then spend it on a consumable item, investigating and proving that would cost many times more than the tax revenue it would generate. Unsustainable.
If you're in the minority who are paid under the table, then fuck the entire tax system? This may surprise you, but that's not a very big market your closing here. Especially in our country where illegal immigration isn't as prominent. You're arguing to scrap the entire system because there are minor leaks on the low end for those who are paid under the table.

A consumption tax costs less to administer, less to investigate avoidence, and is more equatable amongst different income groups.
People who are low income and low consumers, may actually come out ahead since the rebate is based on averages.
Easier to avoid for the upper bracket. You'd also be completely murdering purchases for tourism, and international trade with Canada. You would need to raise the consumption tax quite high to account for the loss in income tax. This makes the nation less appealing to purchase raw and manufactured goods from. So good bye forestry, mining, and any manufacturing sector in the nation. Or would propose to subsidize or exempt all the industries that would be screwed from such a large tax hike? Well there goes more revenue for the government.

A pure system either way does not work. A hybrid system, though less cumbersome to account, is more effective.
 
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Also, on taxes - paid $700. For a college kid, that's not a fun proportion, but eh, that's life.

Be pleased. This means that, for a full year, you have had control and use of that $700 and the interest that comes with it.

In a bank, that'd be about $0.35 or so, but if you'd invested in the market, you could have been up a fair bit by now (which you'll pay taxes on, but that's another thread).

Either way, this is a good thing. You had access to, and use of, money that isn't ultimately yours. You got to float on the interest/dividends for a year. This is the equivalent of a net-365 account, and it's a GREAT thing for you!
 

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The "real world" and general decency

Once people get out in the real world where its all on you to provide for yourself and your family, views tend to change. Especially towards government entities who always seem to have their hand in your pocket looking for more.

This is one of the more tiresome and patronising things "grown-ups" like to say to students and young people. There's no need to tell people that they'll grow out of their political views--if they do, they do. In the meantime, it would be gracious of you not to attribute our views to ignorance or inexperience. Our world views differ in substantive ways, and that's not simply a result of my relative youth. It would be nice if we could have a serious discussion about these serious issues without belittling each others' views. I respect the fact that your views are deeply-held; I'd appreciate it if you extended our views the same respect and kept your doubts about their longevity to yourself.
 
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GST was not exempt on the things named. I don't know how to make that any clearer then I already have. So it's irrelevent to pring it up.

Perhaps you should read the the CRA statement on that.
Zero-rated
Some goods and services are taxable at the rate of 0% (zero-rated). This means GST/HST is not charged on the sale or supply of these goods and services. Some common examples of zero-rated goods and services are:

•basic groceries such as milk, bread, and vegetables;
•agricultural products such as grain, raw wool;
•prescription drugs and drug-dispensing fees; and
•medical devices such as hearing aids and artificial teeth.
Exempt goods and services
A small number of goods and services are exempt from GST/HST. This means GST/HST is not charged. Some common examples of exempt goods and services are:

•used residential housing;
•most health care and dental services;
•certain childcare services; and
•many educational services.

Here is the part from the Ontario tax site.

■Diapers, including cloth and disposable diapers designed for babies and children, and diaper inserts and liners, rubber pants and training pants. Incontinence products would be zero-rated under HST, in accordance with current GST rules.

Check your facts first, I said adult diapers are exempt. Look the tax man says they are!! Ontario rules are the same as B.C.'s.

Strawman. Never made that proposition. Oil was much more around the same time last year.

So the price of oil spiked really high briefly, and you could see the reluctance of gas stations to break certain psychological price barriers.
Compare the price oil to the price of gas from 20 yrs. ago to today.
Gas is comparatively cheaper today.


So why have they been reporting record profits?

Who? The independent gas station owners, the distribution companies, or the multinational oil companies? That's way too general of a statement to make about an industry that has many businesses between the oil in the ground and your gas in your tank.


No evidence, speculation.

If there really was excessive profit in the oil industry, there would be a lot more businesses getting involved in the industry, and a bunch of startups trying to get a piece of the pie.


So I take a specific example and you take it out of context for a general one. Cut the bullshit fallacies.

You may not be smart enough to make your own fuel, but I am.


Supply isn't as limited to cause random spikes and falls in prices as they have been in many areas.

You are ignoring a lot of other factors.


No shit. That wasn't the claim, once again you present another strawman argument. My claim was the price was disproportionate taking in all the factors it doesn't account for such a large discrepancy.

I do not believe you are accounting for ALL the factors that go into setting the price of a product. After you have been running a business for many years you will have a better understanding of the many hidden costs that are hard to see.

[Because you haven't been following properly. My response was not stating a consumption tax in lieu of an income tax would save money for the government, but that it would screw over tax revenue.

I follow just fine. Your argument is flawed. A more efficient tax system would save money for everyone. If the government saves money, so do you. The only question is what rate of consumption tax would totally replace income taxes.


Yes, you can. You can make the same sentiment about consumption stating your penalizing people for having the income to purchase things. You can make this sentiment about ANY tax. The purpose of the capital gains tax increase was due to it being abused to avoid paying so much income tax in the higher tax brackets. Hence where Warren Buffet's famous proclamation comes from, stating with all the loopholes he can pay less in taxes then his secretary does. Which is absurd. A consumption tax doesn't fix this, it only makes it easier to avoid taxation within the nation.

It makes more sense to tax people for behavior that adds to government costs, rather than to tax them for behavior that saves the government money.
That's my point, income taxes have too many holes that can't be plugged, and if they somehow were, the very rich would just move their money out of the country, avoiding taxes anyway.

I did, you've just been to busy setting up strawmen to pay attention. A consumption tax is avoidable for the most part, especially on items that would carry heavier revenue or the government by purchasing from where the tax in non-existent or significantly lower. It only spurs international purchasing and other nations economies.

You did not provide any valid examples of how a consumtion tax could be avoided.
You stated that someone could buy out of the country, but imports are subject to the GST, so if you brought the item into Canada you would have to pay tax on it.


If you're in the minority who are paid under the table, then fuck the entire tax system? This may surprise you, but that's not a very big market your closing here. Especially in our country where illegal immigration isn't as prominent. You're arguing to scrap the entire system because there are minor leaks on the low end for those who are paid under the table.

It's a pretty safe bet that you have taken cash and not declared it. Everyone has, so it's not a minor leak on the low end, its a lot of money.
My business is totally legitimate, but like everyone else, I may have omited to declare that birthday money my Grandmother gave me.


Easier to avoid for the upper bracket. You'd also be completely murdering purchases for tourism, and international trade with Canada. You would need to raise the consumption tax quite high to account for the loss in income tax. This makes the nation less appealing to purchase raw and manufactured goods from. So good bye forestry, mining, and any manufacturing sector in the nation. Or would propose to subsidize or exempt all the industries that would be screwed from such a large tax hike? Well there goes more revenue for the government.

So what if its a high rate. The removal of income taxes will balance that out.
Businesses get tax credit for all the tax they pay, so the net result is ZERO to them.
A consumption tax system would do a lot to curtail the underground economy, since a business that did not charge tax to its customers would not get the input credits, and therefore would be at a tax dissavantage to a legitimate business.

A pure system either way does not work. A hybrid system, though less cumbersome to account, is more effective.

Simple is more effective.
 
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Maxx

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This is one of the more tiresome and patronising things "grown-ups" like to say to students and young people. There's no need to tell people that they'll grow out of their political views--if they do, they do. In the meantime, it would be gracious of you not to attribute our views to ignorance or inexperience. Our world views differ in substantive ways, and that's not simply a result of my relative youth. It would be nice if we could have a serious discussion about these serious issues without belittling each others' views. I respect the fact that your views are deeply-held; I'd appreciate it if you extended our views the same respect and kept your doubts about their longevity to yourself.

Perhaps I should have worded it a little differently to take age out of it, but you'd still have taken me task if I had said, "your views will change when you're writing the checks". Truth is, my dad became magically smarter after I hit 30. My kids think I'm a lot smarter than they did 10 or 15 years ago. My former hell-raising rebellious teenage daughter? Permanently grounded 10 year old grandson #2 yesterday. I won't go into details, but I'm sure you get the point.

@Nutfree - You should be proud of the fact that you're contributing, still, consider my perspective. I pay roughly $4000 a year in property taxes (and it goes up every year). That's the check I have to write the county every year just for the privilege of living in a very modest 50 year old tract house in an older Chicago suburb. Many people don't notice that, because its part of their mortgage payment. I paid my mortgage off some years ago, so its painfully clear to me. Roughly 2/3 of that goes to the local schools, and is the majority of their funding. Most of the rest of the school budget comes from the state of Illinois (my state income taxes, sales tax, lottery, etc.), with a small amount from the Feds. The noise you hear about complying with standards to get federal funding is way out of proportion to the actual monetary contribution. The only thing I can see coming out of Federal interference is a bigger bill for me. Most likely, their contribution will be in the form of unfunded mandates, ie, whatever their 'experts' come up with. Will it improve my neighborhood schools? Unlikely. FWIW, state and federal funding is a bigger proportion of the city schools budget than it is where I live, so in effect, you and I are paying for the city schools as well.

You and I agree that the problem with inner city schools is parental values and motivation, or rather the lack thereof. Standards and curriculum don't fix that. We come back to something like vouchers, where parents HAVE to be involved, at least to some minimal degree, in choosing a school for their kids. That can easily be done at the state level, without Federal 'help' I think I sensed agreement as well, that we all perform better when we have some measure of control over our lives and outcomes. PTA, or school councils can help, as they have to a small degree in Chicago, but I think a voucher system might help even more. If you've taken any management classes, you've no doubt heard of the Hawthorne Effect. That's what I'm talking about.

@Mako - You were ranting to someone earlier in this thread about Exxon profits. I looked at their annual report. Just under 11% on sales pre-tax, 6% after income taxes. Pretty good, but not stellar. Certainly not obscene. I don't understand the problem.

Exxon Mobil Corporation 2009 Summary Annual Report
 
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Maxx said:
@Mako - You were ranting to someone earlier in this thread about Exxon profits. I looked at their annual report. Just under 11% on sales pre-tax, 6% after income taxes. Pretty good, but not stellar. Certainly not obscene. I don't understand the problem.

That rant was directed at me. Thanks for the info Maxx, I didn't have time to look that up.
I think he realized he was wrong and gave up.

I hate when the news puts up misleading statements about companies reporting record profits without any other info on ROI.

I think the time for local school funding and management has long passed.
It made sense when very few people had an education and people who wanted a better education for their children, gathered their neighbors together and built the school with their own hands and money.
Now there is far to much inequity between the schools in affluant areas, and the ones in poor areas.
Give people the choice to attend any school they want, if space is available.

I think we can all agree education is a national concern, not a local one.
Everyone deserves to have an equal chance at a quality education, and sticking with local funding is not going to deliver that.
The federal government should mandate a core curriculum that everyone must follow, and fund it appropriatly. The local area could have specific programs that they want to have and fund those themselves.
One curriculum is going to be a whole lot cheaper to deliver than many.

Removal of all those many thousands of administrations in the school system would put a whole lot more money in the classroom.
It would also help a lot of taxpayers, by removing a large portion of property tax.
It is unfair to tax people on the current value of a property, since the only remedy to a high tax bill for a retired senior, is to sell the property. Taxed out of your house is not a story I want to hear on the evening news.
 
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If your the Calculator Crusader, maybe you should get it out and use it.

Did you even read the article!!!!!!!
It clearly stated most of the profit was due to high oil prices, and those are not in the companies control, they are set by the buyers.

Maybe you should try telling the shareholders their making too much money.
I doubt they would say they have too big of a return on their investment.
In fact it looks to me like the ROI is modest at best.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
 
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Mako

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If your the Calculator Crusader, maybe you should get it out and use it.

Did you even read the article!!!!!!!
It clearly stated most of the profit was due to high oil prices, and those are not in the companies control, they are set by the buyers.

Maybe you should try telling the shareholders their making too much money.
I doubt they would say they have too big of a return on their investment.
In fact it looks to me like the ROI is modest at best.

You have no idea what you're talking about.
Maybe before you throw out insults about reading comprehension, you should check your own as well. A large portion yes, but not the sole factor as you're implying. And that doesn't say calculator, so you can drop the smart ass routine.

Want to keep going back in years?

Yet they're not paying anything to the U.S. in taxes this year. Great fiscal policy they have going there.
 
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Maybe before you throw out insults about reading comprehension, you should check your own as well. A large portion yes, but not the sole factor as you're implying. And that doesn't say calculator, so you can drop the smart ass routine.

Want to keep going back in years?

Yet they're not paying anything to the U.S. in taxes this year. Great fiscal policy they have going there.

Yet the share price is falling, sounds like the investors do not agree the rate of return is high.

You want them to pay more taxes??????? So the price of gas goes up more!!!!!!!
You were just compaining about the price of gas, and now you want it to be even higher.
That makes absolutly no sense whatsoever.
 
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