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Lazy

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In his several posts, h3g3l spoke well for me. I might as well go back to bed.

Of course the U.S. is not Bangladesh or the old Soviet Union, and Obama is not Stalin, but he is taking us in that direction. It will take a while to bleed us down that far. I'm not suggesting at all I could do better elsewhere. I am suggesting that he and his leftist ilk are moving the country around me. Or trying anyway.

Perhaps we should ignore the red flags and let him have his way until we sink to the level of, say, England? or France? Where SHOULD we draw the line?

Taxes and fees are increasing at an alarming rate in every corner of our lives. Inflation is essentially zero on goods and services, why should government continue to gobble up more and more? Personally, I think that's the next bubble. Either the people rise up, or the system collapses under its own weight.

We've been chasing an Afghani who was cut from his wealthy family who needs constant dialysis -- keeping up a charade like that is expensive for 8 years, and it's especially expensive when the party that shouts that they're strong on National Defense fails to protect us from a National Crisis in less than a year couldn't have been good from the start. It's even more embarrassing that they can't catch the guy they trained. I really have no idea why we can't catch this guy after seeing our military expenditures. What's sad is that that money is only a drop in the bucket compared to the entire picture but it all comes together very nicely for a big terrible mess that it is.

Basically, we're all just too dependant on Reagonomics, something that should've been addressed when Clinton was riding it and increased taxes by 90%.

2v2f4zs.gif


This whole Obama is a Communist thing sounds like misinformed Fox News Propaganda to me and comparing this recession to the 1920's is a huge laugh. Obama is no better a President than we might've had with the other candidates and i'm sure he'll only end up being a one term President but we won't know just how effective currently enacted policies will affect us until they do.

Markets show signs of stabilization but an improvement from this time last year and prior, non-efficient deficit spending, planned (increased) monetization of health care industry (1/6th of our economy which is primarily a service industry), weakened National Defense programs, International U.S. relations seemingly better. Mixed results with Obama so far.

It's silly to whine about the Government asking for more money when the very same people bought a house they knew they couldn't afford but did anyway are now complaining that the Gov't is asking too much of them but demand it anyway - like their house. Now both are in shambles and they have the audacity to think saving-their-ass-and-their-countrymen services will pop out of thin air like their house did. Mister Wallstreet out there crying how he lost funds he amassed by swindling the masses with lies of affording their dreamhome is crying how he doesn't have access to his get-rich-quick money. Easy money ain't free and the cost of it is what has materialized today, with interest. Bigger the risk, better the reward? Lesson learned = Not for long. Even if he could access the money or were allowed access to it, it wouldn't be worth much to the dwindling value of the greenback. Obviously something must be done and it must be drastic but people are so fear of change. It certainly doesn't happen overnight either.

I blame this culture of vapid consumerism.
 
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Mako

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Respectfully disagree.

Ask yourself a couple questions

1. At work, are you more effective and commited to a project if a) you believe in it and have some level of control and input to the process and execution or b) the project complete with process and guidlines are handed down to you from "higher up"?
Do either of these apply to students? Nope. Is it always handed down from higher up then the students? Yup.

The reason B.C. is going HST now is because Ontario is doing it now. B.C. was worried that the business investment would go to Ontario instead of B.C. if we didn't impliment the HST too. It is very unpopular with the public though, depending on what poll you look at, it's between 60 and 80% against.
The government will go ahead and bring this in, it's the right way to go.
It's not popular here either actually.

The point wasn't about the exemptions, or who buys cars. It's the ability to avoid paying taxes.
The drug dealer is not paying any income tax, but he will pay the HST, you have to launder that money somehow, the tax man will get a cut.
And lets face it, someone walking around with a big wad of cash in their hands is going to spend it.
It's a tax shift from income taxes to consumption taxes. Easier and cheaper to collect, much more difficult to avoid.
The people who buy more stuff will be paying more tax, the people who buy less stuff will end up paying less taxes.
Except the items it targets are essential items that were exempted to help families, especially of lower incomes. So the drug dealer has to pay more on groceries, so does everyone else. The drug dealer is a horribly biased example.

The exemptions for the HST will be the same as the ones for the GST.
Most items for the disabled are GST exempt and will continue to be exempt under the HST.
Did you know adult diapers are PST and GST exempt? Soon HST exempt.
In BC maybe, but that's not being enacted in Ontario. We're paying the whole thing now, the exemption is for iterms under $4. It's a joke.

We've been chasing an Afghani who was cut from his wealthy family who needs constant dialysis -- keeping up a charade like that is expensive for 8 years, and it's especially expensive when the party that shouts that they're strong on National Defense fails to protect us from a National Crisis in less than a year couldn't have been good from the start. It's even more embarrassing that they can't catch the guy they trained. I really have no idea why we can't catch this guy after seeing our military expenditures. What's sad is that that money is only a drop in the bucket compared to the entire picture but it all comes together very nicely for a big terrible mess that it is.
He's in the Pakistan border hills, which we don't have permission to enter.
 

Lazy

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Mako said:
He's in the Pakistan border hills, which we don't have permission to enter.

So what, we're waiting for an Iran-Contra Affair #2 to get it indirectly done?
 
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Mako

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So what, we're waiting for an Iran-Contra Affair #2 to get it indirectly done?

They're trying to secure the afghan borders and police force so the Taliban that harboured him won't be welcomed by the people. We've started to make progress again in Afghanistan after Obama recommitted to it.
 
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Maxx

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Do either of these apply to students? Nope. Is it always handed down from higher up then the students? Yup.

The answer to question number 2 explains how it applies to students.
 
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Mako

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The answer to question number 2 explains how it applies to students.
No it doesn't, as it makes a lot of assumptions taking two very narrow examples. There are many nations with a centralized education system that out perform USA by leaps and bounds.

Now how about instead of making more fox news speculation without explanation you actually start answering things you've been challenged on. You've criticized Obama saying he's increased your taxes. I challenged you on this, no concession or explanation. You made an implied accusation that Obama was attempting to turn the country into a socialist or communist regime, no concession or justification when challenged on this. You threw out a bunch of market bubbles with different causes and triggers, when challenged on this you gave the definition without relating it in any meaningful way, when further challenged, no concession, no explanation. You arbitrarily accused Chris Dodd and Barney Frank of playing a large part in the financial collapse, when challenged once again, no concession or justification.

Do you see a pattern here? You've demonstrated no functional knowledge but rather a parrot mentality who's unable to justify their talking points and attempts to gloss over or misdirect when called out upon it.
 
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Mako said:
Except the items it targets are essential items that were exempted to help families, especially of lower incomes. So the drug dealer has to pay more on groceries, so does everyone else. The drug dealer is a horribly biased example.

As I understand it, the HST targets everything that the GST was already charged on. If you exempt essential items from taxes, you would also be providing a tax break for the rich as well. A much better solution is to charge a relatively low rate of tax over a wide range of items and those with higher incomes are very likely to spend a lot more money therefore paying a larger amount of tax.

With consumption taxes replacing income taxes, everyone pays their fair share of tax to the government regardless where they got the money from or if they even declared it to the tax man. Creative accounting isn't going to avoid paying a consumption tax. A lot of creative accounting goes into avoiding income taxes though.

The drug dealer is just an example of a person who does not declare his income and therefore pays no income tax.
You may be right though, I do believe I may be biased against freeloaders on society.
I just as easily could have used cash only contractor or businessman with very creative accounting as an example.
 
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Mako

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As I understand it, the HST targets everything that the GST was already charged on. If you exempt essential items from taxes, you would also be providing a tax break for the rich as well. A much better solution is to charge a relatively low rate of tax over a wide range of items and those with higher incomes are very likely to spend a lot more money therefore paying a larger amount of tax.
PST was exempt on these things before. It's not about rich and poor, but to low income families an extra 8% on all of the groceries, childrens clothes, etc. is hard. I especially look at my local area in Northern Ontario where we already pay a good portion more then they do for groceries in Southern Ontario. I'd support raising the PST another percent then add 8% to essential goods.

With consumption taxes replacing income taxes, everyone pays their fair share of tax to the government regardless where they got the money from or if they even declared it to the tax man. Creative accounting isn't going to avoid paying a consumption tax. A lot of creative accounting goes into avoiding income taxes though.
There are still many ways to avoid a consumption tax when your buying options are wider.
 

Fruitkitty

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Respectfully disagree.

Ask yourself a couple questions

1. At work, are you more effective and commited to a project if a) you believe in it and have some level of control and input to the process and execution or b) the project complete with process and guidlines are handed down to you from "higher up"?

2. Why does my school district, and many others like it in the suburbs, significantly outperform the Chicago Public Schools in every possible way, even though CPS has more resources and spends quite a bit more per student?

1. This screams false dichotomy. Yes, I'm more effective and committed to a project in case (a), but that is so overwhelmingly trumped by other factors.

First, a quick counterexample:

I really believe in curbing greenhouse gas emissions in order to limit the effects of global climate change. So am I, a full-time college student of limited means, better at making that happen then a disinterested climatologist or an indifferent US senator? No, of course not. I can believe in it all I want, I can even volunteer with the local Sierra Club chapter and have some influence into the process by organizing like-minded voters, but at the end of the day, the climatologist's research results and the senator's power are will have much more influence on the process than I ever will.

Second, this still all misses my original point, which was to say that national standards are able to draw on the best experts from a larger pool, and that political considerations mean that national standards are guaranteed to be very centrist. The Texas Board of Education really, really, really believes that rewriting history is the best thing for the students and they're getting incredible input into the process. That seems like a counterexample to me.





2. Are you ****ing kidding me? You haven't stated what community you specifically live in, but I can tell you what the above-average performing suburbs generally have in common: a low concentration of lower class students and a high concentration of middle middle class students and up. The CPS has all of the intercity lower class students to contend with.

Seriously, wow. This is why open-ended questions do not constitute an argument. Rather than ask such questions, use the answers to form your arguments, because not only is your argument stronger when you argue facts, you also avoid a lot of embarrassment from asking questions for which the answer blatantly doesn't support your argument.
 
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Maxx

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1. This screams false dichotomy. Yes, I'm more effective and committed to a project in case (a), but that is so overwhelmingly trumped by other factors.

2. Are you ****ing kidding me? You haven't stated what community you specifically live in, but I can tell you what the above-average performing suburbs generally have in common: a low concentration of lower class students and a high concentration of middle middle class students and up. The CPS has all of the intercity lower class students to contend with.

Seriously, wow. This is why open-ended questions do not constitute an argument. Rather than ask such questions, use the answers to form your arguments, because not only is your argument stronger when you argue facts, you also avoid a lot of embarrassment from asking questions for which the answer blatantly doesn't support your argument.

OK, sorry. I took you for being a little older and more experienced, so I thought it would be obvious.

You got the point about involvement and commitment leading to better performance.

I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that 'lower class' students are inherently inferior, yet you didn't make the leap to WHY they don't perform as well in school. The key is buy in and commitment. Especially in the elementary grades, buy in and commitment of parents is as critical if not more so than that of the students. Later, the peer culture becomes more important.

Ask any educator, and even most liberals, they'll tell you that parent commitment to knowledge is the key. Kids will perform better if they see that its important to the people around them. Good examples. To Mako's point, that is why some foreign school systems perform better. This is why suburban schools perform better. More to the point, Chicago Catholic schools bury public schools in the same neighborhoods on standardized tests even though their budgets are smaller, and teachers in the Catholic schools are paid far less than their public counterparts. Self-selection? Sure. That's the point. We need to encourage involvent and commitment.

National experts telling locals to sit down, shut up and do it our way doesn't do much for involvement. That was the point I tried to to make with question #1. You can hire experts to micromanage national standards and curriculum all you want, but if the kid doesn't care and gives random answers on the national test, where does that leave you?

K-12 curriculum isn't exactly rocket science. If you get the 3R's right, and get the kids and parents commited to it, the other stuff is trivial. The bright kids will figure it out. The dull ones who believe the earth is 6000 years old aren't going to MIT anyway.

I agree with you that the curriculum issues in Texas and Kansas are just silly, but those things aren't root causes for high school kids reading at a 2nd grade level. If it were, students in religious schools wouldn't perform as well as they do on standardized tests.

I think vouchers that allow parents to send their kids to ANY school could help. Some think that ends up promoting religion, and maybe it does a little under current circumstances, but I think more private secular schools would spring up to fill the gaps as the more abyssmal public schools collapsed.

That's not the whole answer of course. Perhaps instead of "no child left behind" there ought to be "OK, you want to disrupt things? Not pay attention? See how it feels on the outside looking in". I suspect a lot of kids might get the hint, more so than the current system where you basically have to kill someone to get ejected.

I guess where I'm going with this, is IMHO, federal involvement has hurt more than help.
 

the0silent0alchemist

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They're trying to secure the afghan borders and police force so the Taliban that harboured him won't be welcomed by the people. We've started to make progress again in Afghanistan after Obama recommitted to it.

this of course assumes that osama is the nenemy we call him and not a 'CIA stooge'
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is more or less what im talkiing about which, DOES make sense in a way because ive heard time and time again how the world bank and such have a track record of screwing 3rd world countries over by putting them into debt, or multinational companies like mining firms creating hugestakes in the economy and, through economic contribution, use this to lever greater subsidies and less boundaries in terms of environmental legislation. mexico, alcan i think its called, did something similar.
:dunno: i may be wrong, but, the concept of cloak and dagger methods of securing money and resources makes SENSE in strategic circles.
 
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PST was exempt on these things before. It's not about rich and poor, but to low income families an extra 8% on all of the groceries, childrens clothes, etc. is hard. I especially look at my local area in Northern Ontario where we already pay a good portion more then they do for groceries in Southern Ontario. I'd support raising the PST another percent then add 8% to essential goods.


There are still many ways to avoid a consumption tax when your buying options are wider.

If it's not about rich and poor, why use an example of hardship among low income people?
You forgot one very big difference between the PST and HST. The PST did not give a tax rebate to the low income people. The HST is linked to the GST and will give a tax rebate to the people in the low income groups just like the GST does now.
The low income will pay less tax under the HST than they were paying with seperate GST and HST taxes. There are also significantly less costs to collect the tax with them combined.

Only the richer that do not qualifiy for the tax rebate will pay more tax.

So you are surprised it costs more for veggies, groceries, clothes, etc. in an area where none of that is produced and it all has to be trucked in.
It wouldn't cost less to buy veggies if you lived right beside the farm where they were grown, would it? Or how about if you grew your own?
The land costs much less in the north though, so costs are relative, some things cost more, some things less.

Here in Vancouver veggies, groceries, and clothes are much cheaper since much of it is produced here. My veggies are very affordable, I grow my own. The ultimate way to save yourself money, do more for yourself. Due to taxes, every dollar you save yourself is worth almost two dollars in income.
Shipping also costs less as the port is right here.
Land costs are a lot more, a small city lot with no house costs around $200,000 in this area.
Want to rent a small apartment? You're looking at around $800 a month for a one bedroom older place.

I highly doubt many people will do most of their purchasing outside the country, so I do not see very many ways to avoid paying your fair share of taxes with a consumption tax.
With income taxes the very rich move their money out of the country to avoid paying tax. They can't avoid a consumption tax by doing that.
 
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Mako

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If it's not about rich and poor, why use an example of hardship among low income people?
Because that WAS the purpose, atleast in Ontario, for these things being exempt. Yes, higher income families benefited as well but the ones who it was targeted to help were low income families.

You forgot one very big difference between the PST and HST. The PST did not give a tax rebate to the low income people. The HST is linked to the GST and will give a tax rebate to the people in the low income groups just like the GST does now.
The rebate doesn't make up for it as they're paying more all year round.

The low income will pay less tax under the HST than they were paying with seperate GST and HST taxes. There are also significantly less costs to collect the tax with them combined.
That's not true at all. They won't be paying more as the rebate won't account for 8% increase on every purchase of the listed exempt items. They'll be paying more, it saves businesses money by being able to file simpler tax returns. It would be great if they passed the savings down, but precedent has shown this is not what happens in Canada. Our dollars have been at parity with the U.S. dollar for quite some time, yet we're still charged in Canada like it's on $0.70.

So you are surprised it costs more for veggies, groceries, clothes, etc. in an area where none of that is produced and it all has to be trucked in.
It wouldn't cost less to buy veggies if you lived right beside the farm where they were grown, would it? Or how about if you grew your own?
The land costs much less in the north though, so costs are relative, some things cost more, some things less.
I'll have to pull the calculations, but the costs doesn't account for transportation. Especially in things like gas prices. We've been price gouged for years, and though our local politicians fight for an inquiry we're largely ignored in the Ontario provincial and federal electorate. It's supposed to cost more yes, the rate that it's at no.

I highly doubt many people will do most of their purchasing outside the country, so I do not see very many ways to avoid paying your fair share of taxes with a consumption tax.
With a consumption tax in lieu of an income tax, that would be the way to save significant amount of money.

With income taxes the very rich move their money out of the country to avoid paying tax. They can't avoid a consumption tax by doing that.
Well no, as they still have to pay income tax if they're operating inside the country. Many of them avoid higher rates by abusing loopholes with the lowers rates on the capital gains tax. In the U.S. this is exact reason Obama increases the capital gains tax by 2%.
 
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Because that WAS the purpose, atleast in Ontario, for these things being exempt. Yes, higher income families benefited as well but the ones who it was targeted to help were low income families.

The HST will benefit low income more than having exemptions on PST since low income will get a rebate and higher income will not. With the PST exemptions both groups benefit equally.

The rebate doesn't make up for it as they're paying more all year round.

The rebate applies year round as well.

That's not true at all. They won't be paying more as the rebate won't account for 8% increase on every purchase of the listed exempt items. They'll be paying more, it saves businesses money by being able to file simpler tax returns. It would be great if they passed the savings down, but precedent has shown this is not what happens in Canada. Our dollars have been at parity with the U.S. dollar for quite some time, yet we're still charged in Canada like it's on $0.70.

Please reread the paragraph and clarify. What are you trying to say?
It may not pass down right away but it will eventually. Any business that does not pass cost savings down to it's customers risks losing customers to it's competitors who do pass those cost savings down. Have you heard of KMart and Wal-Mart? One is gone, the other is huge.
Parity for some time you say, like the amount of time it takes for a purchase order contract to be signed, the goods manufactured, and delivered to the store, up untill the goods are sold. NOT. There is a long lead time that the dollar would have to be at par for and that only applies to stuff from the U.S.
If it's the U.S. dollar going down, there is no effect on stuff coming into Canada from other countries.


I'll have to pull the calculations, but the costs doesn't account for transportation. Especially in things like gas prices. We've been price gouged for years, and though our local politicians fight for an inquiry we're largely ignored in the Ontario provincial and federal electorate. It's supposed to cost more yes, the rate that it's at no.

Price gouging on gas!! Bull. You are forgetting the free market, prices are set by how much people are willing to pay. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy, or buy less, or make your own.
Transportation is only one cost. It's very likely that getting the goods to your location involves more than one business, so multiple profits have to be accounted for as well.

With a consumption tax in lieu of an income tax, that would be the way to save significant amount of money.

Yes, and that's the way Canada's tax system has been moving for many years, but there are a lot of people who do not have a good understanding of the pros and cons of different tax structures. Just look at the public opposition to the GST, even though people were already paying the MST, it was hidden, the GST replaced it at a much lower rate and was visible, but there was a lot of opposition complaining they didn't want to pay a "NEW" tax.


Well no, as they still have to pay income tax if they're operating inside the country. Many of them avoid higher rates by abusing loopholes with the lowers rates on the capital gains tax. In the U.S. this is exact reason Obama increases the capital gains tax by 2%.

Capital gains taxes are just as bad as income taxes. If I am smart or lucky and make wise investments for my future, why should the government profit from that? Those investments should cause the government to save money in the future, and should not be penalized.
With consumption taxes there are very few loopholes, if any.
 
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Mako

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The HST will benefit low income more than having exemptions on PST since low income will get a rebate and higher income will not. With the PST exemptions both groups benefit equally.
The rebate applies year round as well.
This applies to BC only then. We have no such rebate. Families under $160,000 get $1000 rebate and individuals making less then $80,000 get $300, both split amongst three payments.

It may not pass down right away but it will eventually. Any business that does not pass cost savings down to it's customers risks losing customers to it's competitors who do pass those cost savings down. Have you heard of KMart and Wal-Mart? One is gone, the other is huge.
You mean like how the price of oil has gone down, our dollar is at parity, yet gas prices have risen? Don't have to lower prices to undercut competitors, when the competitors also aren't lowering.

Parity for some time you say, like the amount of time it takes for a purchase order contract to be signed, the goods manufactured, and delivered to the store, up untill the goods are sold. NOT. There is a long lead time that the dollar would have to be at par for and that only applies to stuff from the U.S.
Yet when the dollar dropped, prices were able to rise quite quickly. Funny how that happened.

Price gouging on gas!! Bull. You are forgetting the free market, prices are set by how much people are willing to pay. If you don't want to pay the price, don't buy, or buy less, or make your own.
You can't make your own gas. It's not bull at all, supply and demand have been thrown out the window regarding gas prices. The "free market" has been broken for quite some time.

Transportation is only one cost. It's very likely that getting the goods to your location involves more than one business, so multiple profits have to be accounted for as well.
As would be the case of western products shipped to southern Ontario, yet prices are disproportionate amongst northern and southern still uniformly.

Yes, and that's the way Canada's tax system has been moving for many years, but there are a lot of people who do not have a good understanding of the pros and cons of different tax structures. Just look at the public opposition to the GST, even though people were already paying the MST, it was hidden, the GST replaced it at a much lower rate and was visible, but there was a lot of opposition complaining they didn't want to pay a "NEW" tax.
For business and people, not the government. It would screw tax revenue.

Capital gains taxes are just as bad as income taxes. If I am smart or lucky and make wise investments for my future, why should the government profit from that?
You can ask that about any tax. Pointless question. It's used to circumvent income tax in the U.S. due to the capital gains tax being significantly lower.

Those investments should cause the government to save money in the future, and should not be penalized.
With consumption taxes there are very few loopholes, if any.
There are crater sized loopholes if you have the buying power to abuse them. Closing the gaps that are used to circumvent income tax is a much more reasonable plan.
 

Fruitkitty

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OK, sorry. I took you for being a little older and more experienced, so I thought it would be obvious.

You know, given that my profile says that I'm a college student, my approximate age isn't hard to deduce. At any rate, my level of experience may affect my perspective but it's irrelevant to the validity of the arguments I make.

I'm sure you didn't mean to suggest that 'lower class' students are inherently inferior, yet you didn't make the leap to WHY they don't perform as well in school. The key is buy in and commitment. Especially in the elementary grades, buy in and commitment of parents is as critical if not more so than that of the students. Later, the peer culture becomes more important.

Ask any educator, and even most liberals, they'll tell you that parent commitment to knowledge is the key. Kids will perform better if they see that its important to the people around them. Good examples. To Mako's point, that is why some foreign school systems perform better. This is why suburban schools perform better. More to the point, Chicago Catholic schools bury public schools in the same neighborhoods on standardized tests even though their budgets are smaller, and teachers in the Catholic schools are paid far less than their public counterparts. Self-selection? Sure. That's the point. We need to encourage involvent and commitment.

The end of Chapter 5 of Freakonomics has a pretty good rundown of what parenting factors are and are not correlated with school testing performance, the general conclusion being that a students' performance has more to do with who their parents are then what their parents actually do. This is to say that, yes, kids with parents involved in their local schools perform better, but that involvement is a lurking variable for the fact that those parents value education strongly and kids tend to mostly take on their parents' values.

Parental commitment probably helps a bit, but it's really more of a second factor that correlates with the more important factors of parental intelligence and parental value of education. Generally speaking, lower class students have at least a nearly the same distribution of intelligence (the differences are complicated, are relatively slight, and aren't particularly relevant), but the parental values aren't present. No amount of PTR groups is going to make headwinds against that gap.

National experts telling locals to sit down, shut up and do it our way doesn't do much for involvement. That was the point I tried to to make with question #1. You can hire experts to micromanage national standards and curriculum all you want, but if the kid doesn't care and gives random answers on the national test, where does that leave you?

This is a straw man. The point of national standards and testing isn't about telling PTR groups and local school boards to sit down and shut up. It's about setting national curriculum and teaching standards so that those groups aren't using their power to do anything overwhelmingly negligent. These groups' general business is the logistics of making school happen (PTR groups in particular don't have any real power to do much else and it's hard to see how national standardization affects them whatsoever); the problems generally occur when the local or state-level elected agencies do something overwhelmingly stupid. National standards only take away their ability to do something extreme; their day-to-day activities are barely affected whatsoever.

I agree with you that the curriculum issues in Texas and Kansas are just silly, but those things aren't root causes for high school kids reading at a 2nd grade level. If it were, students in religious schools wouldn't perform as well as they do on standardized tests.

I think vouchers that allow parents to send their kids to ANY school could help. Some think that ends up promoting religion, and maybe it does a little under current circumstances, but I think more private secular schools would spring up to fill the gaps as the more abyssmal public schools collapsed.

That's not the whole answer of course. Perhaps instead of "no child left behind" there ought to be "OK, you want to disrupt things? Not pay attention? See how it feels on the outside looking in". I suspect a lot of kids might get the hint, more so than the current system where you basically have to kill someone to get ejected.

I guess where I'm going with this, is IMHO, federal involvement has hurt more than help.

My general point is that I disagree with your assessment that federal involvement would be a bad thing. I don't think that any of your arguments as to why it would be bad actually demonstrate that point, so much as that there are bigger problems with US education than the standards we use.

I'll agree that simply setting national standards isn't some kind of cure-all for the challenges of education, but I don't see why it would be a bad thing to do.
 
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Mako

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Nice to see Maxx once again avoiding his challenges, and just throwing out fallacy ridden arguments.

National experts telling locals to sit down, shut up and do it our way doesn't do much for involvement. That was the point I tried to to make with question #1. You can hire experts to micromanage national standards and curriculum all you want, but if the kid doesn't care and gives random answers on the national test, where does that leave you?
What if the kid doesn't care and gives random answers on the state test, where does that leave you?
What if the kid doesn't care and gives random answers on the local district test, where does that leave you?

You're question is completely pointless and doesn't refute a thing. Also, as evident in Texas, there is already an implied national standard set forth by the "free market" due to their purchasing power for texts books. Other states curb their curriculum based on the Texas, thus the biases of an uneducated electorate indoctrinate the entire nation. Putting the power in the experts hands is much more sensible.
 
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What the hell was this thing about in the first place?

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Oh! Taxes! Congratulations on being done, Maxx. I got mine in and e-filed on the 14th. Meant to verify they were "officially accepted," but forgot. Came back on the 16th to a couple of "they've been accepted" email messages. *phew*
 

Fruitkitty

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What the hell was this thing about in the first place?

...

...

Oh! Taxes! Congratulations on being done, Maxx. I got mine in and e-filed on the 14th. Meant to verify they were "officially accepted," but forgot. Came back on the 16th to a couple of "they've been accepted" email messages. *phew*

This thread was about taxes so far as in Maxx started it by talking about his "annual contribution to Comrade Obama's vision for America", which is to say it was never actually about taxes.
 

the0silent0alchemist

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This thread was about taxes so far as in Maxx started it by talking about his "annual contribution to Comrade Obama's vision for America", which is to say it was never actually about taxes.

lets not forget it was a stab at the new prez, who of all things has been accused of being the antichrist.
 
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