Complaints dept. & More

[Raccoon]

I suggest we have 3 new sub-forums in Adiministrative Stuff:

1. "What's great about ADISC?"
2. "What's wrong with ADISC? = Complaints Department
3. "How can we improve ADISC?"

My reasons:

1. issues in all three need to be aired, and will be aired anyway; collecting them in one spot will, for various reasons diminish drama (or at least quarantine it,) prevent mods from having to run about investigating and putting out fires, enable genuine concerns to be addressed and not dismissed as individual anomalous gripes, prevent underground movements from turning into groundswells resulting in mass exodus, enable the efficient re-education or expulsion of dissidents

I'm kidding of course! I mean facilitate the easing of discomfort by temperate discussion, and addressing the concerns of members who are unhappy for whatever reason...)

and make the site more efficient by eliminating duplication of threads, especially the negative ones.

Peachy said

Advice on how to improve the website is always a positive thing, and the more people contribute their advice, the better an idea everyone gets where we should be moving.

But (there's always a but) right now, there's so much discussion on what to do, how to do it, what not to do, what has gone wrong, who is to blame etc etc that no one can keep up. In addition, the discussion is spread among three dozen threads. For instance, there's already a thread about "Cleaning up ADISC".

So my suggestion is:
- Try to keep all the suggestions in one spot. Those people responsible for actually deciding on and implementing any changes (Moo and the staff members) are only human and cannot click through three dozen threads to find that one good suggestion buried among those kazillion post
- Make sure you summarize your suggestions and don't type out a wall of text. Many people have complained that there's too much to read on ADISC to keep up, and another set of wall-o'-text-messages doesn't help.
- Before you post suggestions, collect all the ones you have and then neatly arrange them in one single post where a person with just one minute of time can find out easily what you want (i.e. highlight important parts in bold or underlined text)
- Attempt to separate suggestions for the staff (e.g. tighten moderation) and suggestions for the members (e.g. how to quote properly).

Peachy

- and I and others have expressed similar thoughts.

2. Administrative Stuff has been gettin' all cluttered up with issues belonging to categories 2 &

3. "What's great about ADISC?" is badly needed. For one thing, the act of posting there will up the posters' morale; and by focusing on what's right about the place we can isolate where and how improvement is needed - and what should not be changed. Not to mention being a shiny new bauble (marketing tool) to draw lurkers in from the cold

4. Mere single threads can't handle or differentiate the issues belonging to the three categories. For instance, in all three will appear threads on the ranking system, the rep system, the attitude and nature of VIP's, and the impact of the newbie influx.

5. And speaking of newbies, they themselves are good and wanted - but the size of their numbers and their rate of influx does affect the site; hence we must adapt, including recognizing problems endemic to ADISC's growth, such as the mods' workload, and the comfort level of various groups.

I suggest, moreover, that once there is a complaints dept, negrep for dramatic complaints

(VIPs are anti-newbie! Raccoon wants an exclusive biodome for snobs! Newbies have ruined the place! Moo has ascended to heaven and left us! There is complaining about all the complaining!)

would be used to keep the complaints inside the complaints dept. Yayz, the rep system would be further justified as a tool to further social policy.

Maybe instead of just talking about leaving, upset people will say why they are upset, and those sympathetic to them can say why they are sympathetic. (Z, A)

Maybe all the people saying we should work to improve the site could make concrete suggestions how to go about doing so if they had a place to do so.

 

[EmeraldsAndLime]

I think most people will argue against this on the basis alone that it creates unnecessary forums. From my own personal standpoint, I don't check any of the sub-forums on this site, so it'd be very annoying for me.

Aside from all that, posts that fall into one of your three proposed categories are predominantly on other boards anyway. People post threads like that on more private forums because they

1) want more longer-standing members to reply, or
2) pertain to private/personal issues with the site or other people and don't want just anyone to see them.

Why create an extra two separate spaces for them when they're already being seen elsewhere?

Besides, I think all these "Lets fix ADISC!" threads are for the short-term anyway as a result of everything that's been happening. They'll die off eventually those sub-forums will become dead.

 

[Peachy]

Some more points:
- A subforum explicitly labeled "complaints" is bound to cause more complaints than we'd normally get, just because it's there and people would use it as a place to "vent" when they're angry while not really offering any suggestions or solutions.
- No one would go into that forum because they'd think it's mostly between the staff and the thread starter, or because they don't want to look at drama posts.
- Lack of quality and usefulness would probably prompt the staff to mostly ignore the forum...like those "suggestion boxes" in stores - no one really looks at what's in those, and if employees look at the "suggestions" it's mostly to have a laugh or to make paper airplanes.

Peachy

 

[Raccoon]

Aside from all that, posts that fall into one of your three proposed categories are predominantly on other boards anyway

That's the point: say if someone's upset and say they want to leave, whether they have gone crazy, or their issues with the site apply just to them, or they have spotted genuine problems that ought to be brought to everyone's attention, they should have a venue to speak their mind - where their concerns can be seen immediately. Otherwise by the time their gripe posts are noticed they may have left already or the problem has had a chance to fester and grow. And we never had the chance to address their issues and possibly resolve them.

Besides, I think all these "Lets fix ADISC!" threads are for the short-term anyway as a result of everything that's been happening. They'll die off eventually those sub-forums will become dead.

If you are right, and I hope you are, all well and good. But if there are deep-rooted problems, putting off identifying and addressing them allows them to grow.

There's one area of problem I do expect to improve; see new thread

Some more points:
- A subforum explicitly labeled "complaints" is bound to cause more complaints than we'd normally get, just because it's there and people would use it as a place to "vent" when they're angry while not really offering any suggestions or solutions.

Possibly true. But that would still be participation; do we not want participation?

And, is such venting necessarily a bad thing? Folks can and do vent in other forums. If "venting when they're angry while not really offering any suggestions or solutions" is spam, would it not be good to have the spam in one space rather than polluting other forums? Would this not increase the average post-quality in those other forums?

No one would go into that forum because they'd think it's mostly between the staff and the thread starter, or because they don't want to look at drama posts.

I would. And I think others would if a friend of theirs were posting there. Maybe because it was in Admin Stuff it would get fewer views. Or maybe it would increase the popularity of Admin Stuff. (I don't think Admin Stuff should be presumed to be unpopular.) And frankly, some find drama posts annoying, others find them entertaining. A Complaints Dept would cater to both the drama-lovers, making it easier to find, and the drama-haters, by making it disappear from "normal" forums.

Lack of quality and usefulness would probably prompt the staff to mostly ignore the forum...like those "suggestion boxes" in stores - no one really looks at what's in those, and if employees look at the "suggestions" it's mostly to have a laugh or to make paper airplanes.

Just how many forums do staff ignore? I assumed all the site was monitored by one staff member or another. I find the whole notion of ignored forums troubling; all manner of badness could erupt, from vandalism to spam. We have had one insider attack; I would rather not see others. If you were kidding, it was in poor taste.

One more point about the Complaints Dept.: allowing, even encouraging people to vent in one place makes discontent measurable, as well as the underlying problems. We could gauge the site's overall morale, instead of having to speculate and guess at it; we could tell how isolated or widespread an issue was.

And you guys didn't address the other two subforums:

If we assume a Complaints Dept., a Fixes subforum would logically follow.

And the "What's Great About ADISC?" subforum would give positive feedback, indicate what not to change, be complimentary to Moo and all the staff, and be another place for the membership to enjoy themselves. Maybe if there was EXPLICIT positivity, it would counteract all the negativity going around, and raise morale. Right now the complaints and negativity get all the press and attention. I, for one, would love to see all the positive things people have to say about the site in general.

 

[EmeraldsAndLime]

That's the point: say if someone's upset and say they want to leave, whether they have gone crazy, or their issues with the site apply just to them, or they have spotted genuine problems that ought to be brought to everyone's attention, they should have a venue to speak their mind - where their concerns can be seen immediately.

So... a public Requests forum?

Possibly true. But that would still be participation; do we not want participation?

And, is such venting necessarily a bad thing? Folks can and do vent in other forums. If "venting when they're angry while not really offering any suggestions or solutions" is spam, would it not be good to have the spam in one space rather than polluting other forums? Would this not increase the average post-quality in those other forums?

Why have a forum focused on negativity? It's apparent to me that a lot of people here would rather RAGE about shit than actually make a constructive post about it. I just don't feel the need to have a section focused on people's hate and bitching.

Essentially, what I'm getting from your post is, "We should have a Complaints forum so people can address problems with the site."

>_>

...isn't that the current purpose of the Administrative and Request Forums?

If we assume a Complaints Dept., a Fixes subforum would logically follow.

Again, why dedicate a whole forum to something that can be discussed in a single thread. I'd rather keep this site ordered - one issue, one thread, one board for it all.

And the "What's Great About ADISC?" subforum would give positive feedback, indicate what not to change, be complimentary to Moo and all the staff, and be another place for the membership to enjoy themselves. Maybe if there was EXPLICIT positivity, it would counteract all the negativity going around, and raise morale. Right now the complaints and negativity get all the press and attention. I, for one, would love to see all the positive things people have to say about the site in general.

I find people tend to make threads like that at their own leisure... and it does happen. Either that or we get PMs, or told elsewhere we're doing a bang-up job. Obviously if there was a problem with something, someone will make a thread about it and we'll all discuss it there (as has been demonstrated in excess lately).

Just how many forums do staff ignore?

Personally, Computers and Games, Fun and Games, Wiki Article Discussion, Incontinence, Stories in Progress, Finished Stories.... and to a very large extent the Roleplay and Babyfur one as well. Not to mention I just glance at the Greetings/Introductions every so often.


Hmmm, I probably should have just listed the forums I *do* look at. Would have been shorter.

 

[MetalHeadTiffany]

I suggest we have 3 new sub-forums in Adiministrative Stuff:


I suggest, moreover, that once there is a complaints dept, negrep for dramatic complaints

(VIPs are anti-newbie! Raccoon wants an exclusive biodome for snobs! Newbies have ruined the place! Moo has ascended to heaven and left us! There is complaining about all the complaining!)

would be used to keep the complaints inside the complaints dept. Yayz, the rep system would be further justified as a tool to further social policy.

Maybe instead of just talking about leaving, upset people will say why they are upset, and those sympathetic to them can say why they are sympathetic. (Z, A)

Maybe all the people saying we should work to improve the site could make concrete suggestions how to go about doing so if they had a place to do so.

Also add a conflict mediation sub-forum for when there are rivalries and when a moderator sees any conflicts or problems he gives the two fighting users an invite PM that will allow them to go to this private thread where both can talk and settle their differences.I believe that this will be useful because there are rivalries here that usually lead to flame wars.

 

[Moo]

I'm against this, because:
(1) I feel it creates unnecessary subforums.
(2) I feel that the 'praise' forum in particular would not get many posts, because few people praise when things go well. Mostly, people just complain when they feel they aren't going well / that person isn't getting their desires met. I also feel that it could lead to problems. People might accuse those who create threads there of sucking up, etc. I also feel that creating a forum for praise would lead to people not giving praise on the rest of the site... which isn't an effect we want to see.
(3) I feel the 'complaints' and 'requests for change' should not be separated. A useful complaint should come with a specific request attached, or should at least open the floor to discussion in a non-drama-causing way. I worry that separating these would encourage people to complain about whatever was on their mind, without even attempting to find a constructive solution. It would send the message that it was OK for everyone to complain, and leave the job of finding a workable solution to 'someone else'.

 

[Raccoon]

So... a public Requests forum?

Yes. But instead of getting duplicate requests, and them over time, a continual record would be kept.

Why have a forum focused on negativity? It's apparent to me that a lot of people here would rather RAGE about shit than actually make a constructive post about it. I just don't feel the need to have a section focused on people's hate and bitching.

Because that would quarantine it. If they will rage anyway, we can put them in a room and close the door, and those who choose to ignore it may do so, while others keep an eye out for anything important. Better than letting off steam in destructive, dramatic ways.

We could, of course, sign them up to play football; that often works.

Yes, unconstructive posts are all the RAGE; constructive posts are in short supply, and get buried or overlooked soon after they appear. The current wisdom seems to be that only a few fanatical people are on a tear; they will self-purge, and we are better off without them; they are an anomaly, at worst a recurrent nightmarish phenomenon, and not an ongoing one, and all we need do is let their venomous posts be buried and forgotten. They will take their leave and take their drama with them; there will be no more complaining, and the complaining-about-complaining drama will die a natural death, leaving only scabby posts and scar tissue behind.

Oh I hope to God you are right, that things will take care of themselves, and the site will heal itself without surgery.

Essentially, what I'm getting from your post is, "We should have a Complaints forum so people can address problems with the site."

>_>

Yes; and a Fixes Subforum, and a "What's Great" forum.

...isn't that the current purpose of the Administrative and Request Forums?

In part. Request forums are currently used for quick, easy, and usually simple things; I have put things there with the intent that the mods should all see them, and debate them amongst themselves, things more complex than "please edit my thread title." This didn't work out very well. EXAMPLE: One of my long requests posts http://www.adisc.org/forum/showthread.php?t=11539 asked about multiple points, only one of which, the main one, was addressed.

Threads in Admin Stuff tend, like most threads, to be temporary in nature (the threads themselves, not their topics), even when they have ongoing relevance. Hence similar threads are made and remade, over and over, like the oodles upon oodles of rep-system threads. Maybe if such stuff could be kept intact, and not bumped, people would read that their proposal or opinion had been already been made and thoroughly addressed since time immemorial. Early on, I would reopen old threads on current topics, making Kraiden cough from the dust; So I made new threads on old issues. Now, I seek a third way.

So my proposed sub-forums' threads would have a permanence greater than the present Admin Stuff threads, but much less than stickies.

I believe many old discussions have merit, and deserve accessibility; and well-thought-out archiving, maybe with tags, or multiple branch structures, would yield valuable benefits. (Multiple overlaid branch structures (directories/subdirectories) sounds complex, I know. But I digress...)

EXAMPLE: I would love to be able to access separate threads on each of the different rep-system experiments Moo made, and their results; otherwise the mods will forever be partly occupied with discussing the various approaches to re-inventing the rep-wheel.

We need a kind of patent system.

Again, why dedicate a whole forum to something that can be discussed in a single thread. I'd rather keep this site ordered - one issue, one thread, one board for it all.

They can't all be in a single thread, except "What's Great About ADISC?" - which should properly be in two forums: Regulars' & VIP's forums. Peach already made http://www.adisc.org/forum/regulars-forum/11470-why-do-you-come-adisc-your-ideal-adisc-site.html - which is close though not quite the same as the one I was about to make. He wants to know what the ideal ADISC would look like; I was going to ask what is already great: what made a lurker decide to join up, what keeps a regular here, why a VIP stayed so long: what they most enjoy about being here.

Right now I don't want to compete with Peach's thread; but if it becomes unwieldy, a second thread in my vein could be made. Or the unwieldiness might prove a completely new subforum is justified. *Quiet Please, Experiment In Progress.* Go Peach!! :thumbsup: :smile1:

I find people tend to make threads like that at their own leisure... and it does happen. Either that or we get PMs, or told elsewhere we're doing a bang-up job. Obviously if there was a problem with something, someone will make a thread about it and we'll all discuss it there (as has been demonstrated in excess lately).

Excess? Please define excess in this context, and how, if at all, according to what rules and under whose authority such excess might be controlled, curtailed, discouraged, diminished or nullified?

You may not realize it - but I think the mods are all, in fact, doing a bang-up job. I think you all work VERY VERY hard, and long hours, act swiftly and with amazing skill when a specific, localized problem rears its head, and there is a clear way to proceed. I think that you keep "keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you," (with the one sad exception) Poems - If-- - and on the rare occasion any of you "loses it" you rapidly "regain it" after a polite, temperate discussion, often one post or PM. I have never seen mod powers abused explicitly, or subtly, as in intimidation of favoritism or discrimination.

I think you care about the membership: newbs to regs to VIP's to your own selves. I am sorry there seems no large effort to catch the really disgruntled people who keep their SPECIFIC issues to themselves and wind up leaving, without a flurry of activity to find out why and cut if off at the pass. I think ADISC can me modified to bring some leavers or potential ones back. They are the ones who really should be posting in Peach's new thread; I haven't read it all yet... it is long.

I think, though you are only human, and forgive any shortcomings, which are fewer than my own, in any case.

I think sometimes you err, and for the good of the site, feel compelled to point it when. I do not merely criticize; I back up any opinion I offer with such evidence, proof, or theory I have at hand. All of it. Iin posts already made.

In particular I think there are some approaches you might take which, though involving some work in the short term, would save greater work in the long term.

I think ignoring forums is unwise, and is a sign of too big a workload.

I think you work hard, long, and competently, but in some cases with old methodology that worked fine on a smaller site, but doesn't address the different nature of a larger and rapidly expanding site.

I think that sometimes, due to time constraints, in order to process a large workflow, some things are glossed over, given short shrift, or not given the attention they warrant.

I think that things running along fine need oversight for when they stumble and should not be ignored.

I think hoping things will get better by themselves, and counting on it, is asking for trouble; notwithstanding that I believe one aspect of the site is bound to fix itself. (New thread coming, as promised.) But if and when it does, that should not divert attention from the things that will not fix themselves.

And I do not believe admin should be blamed for unseen systemic pronlems: though I do see it is there job to identify the root causes of said problems and their effects.

Moo was right to make marketing efforts to get new members; not only was it his right, but he did it for the betterment of the site. When he succeeded, rather than blame for doing his job and well, it incumbent on us to help with adapting the site to unfamiliar new faces as well as efforts to retain members of standing. I think the site can accomodate members of al standings

Personally, Computers and Games, Fun and Games, Wiki Article Discussion, Incontinence, Stories in Progress, Finished Stories.... and to a very large extent the Roleplay and Babyfur one as well. Not to mention I just glance at the Greetings/Introductions every so often.

Hmmm, I probably should have just listed the forums I *do* look at. Would have been shorter.

[/QUOTE]

Also add a conflict mediation sub-forum for when there are rivalries and when a moderator sees any conflicts or problems he gives the two fighting users an invite PM that will allow them to go to this private thread where both can talk and settle their differences.I believe that this will be useful because there are rivalries here that usually lead to flame wars.

Rivalry mediation already takes place brtween PM, forums and requests. The fact we don't see them doesn;t make it happen. If you can't resolve and issue requests is where to take it.