Anyone find the #MeToo thing pretty annoying?

CrinklyConnor

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Im simply saying if people are petty enough to try to scam people over a 30-$35 video game, obviously there are people out there that would make baseless accusations for $ when the person they accused is a millionaire.
Like I’ve said, and like you’ve ignored, every time I ask for it in every post of yours - cite your sources, provide evidence that this happens for the sake of what you’re saying.


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WoodlandWanderer

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Yesterday I read this pretty shocking news story in the UK, which I think shows the problem society still has with rape and why we still need better education and awareness.

The English and Welsh law regarding rape is very simple:
It is rape if person A penetrates person B, person B does not consent, and person A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(We'll ignore penetration not involving a penis which is technically a different crime but carries the same penalty.)

Some of the findings of the survey:
  • A third think it doesn't count as rape if there was no violence.
  • A third of men think it's not rape if a woman flirted on a date but wasn't later up for sex.
  • A third of men think a women can't change her mind and ask to stop after sex has started.
  • 24% of people think non-consensual sex in a long term relationship (e.g. marriage) isn't rape.
    This varies substantially by age: 35% of over 65s but only 16% of 18-24s
  • 11% think it's not rape if the other person is asleep or too drunk to consent.
The concern is obviously that these people sit on juries, but their own beliefs aren't in line with the law. It's not hard to see why victims are reluctant to come forward when so many out-of-date views are still prevalent.
 

BabyTyrant

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Like I’ve said, and like you’ve ignored, every time I ask for it in every post of yours - cite your sources, provide evidence that this happens for the sake of what you’re saying.


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I don't need sources to point out Human Greed, people have sued businesses before successfully (or sometimes failed, but they still tried), you are dead wrong if you believe nobody has ever made false claims to try to make easy money off of rich people, it has happened to businesses so you know it has to have happened to individuals.
 

Drifter

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First, getting the law to recognize and react to rape is nowhere near the same as equal rights for women. That has been the whole problem, and the #metoo movement is what's fixing it.
Rape is a very serious crime that the law recognizes and reacts to in serious ways. The penalties are severe in both the legal system and in the social backlash against convicted, and sometimes only alleged, rapists.

But how should the law react to a rape that was not reported?

How should the law react to a rape claim with no corroborating evidence?

In rape cases, should the courts be compelled to accept the testimony of the accusers as incontrovertible evidence?

If a person uses sex to advance his/her career, was a rape committed? ...was any crime committed?

What legal guidelines can we use to distinguish between rape and poor judgement in cases where two people have sex and later one of them claims they did not give consent, or were incapable of consenting due to alcohol?

Should the burden of proof be on the accused or the accuser?

Rape is a very serious charge, and a careless definition of the word will only cause problems. Like all our other arguments, our inability to define our terms clouds the issue.
 

Slomo

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Rape is a very serious crime that the law recognizes and reacts to in serious ways. The penalties are severe in both the legal system and in the social backlash against convicted, and sometimes only alleged, rapists.

But how should the law react to a rape that was not reported?

How should the law react to a rape claim with no corroborating evidence?

In rape cases, should the courts be compelled to accept the testimony of the accusers as incontrovertible evidence?

If a person uses sex to advance his/her career, was a rape committed? ...was any crime committed?

What legal guidelines can we use to distinguish between rape and poor judgement in cases where two people have sex and later one of them claims they did not give consent, or were incapable of consenting due to alcohol?

Should the burden of proof be on the accused or the accuser?

Rape is a very serious charge, and a careless definition of the word will only cause problems. Like all our other arguments, our inability to define our terms clouds the issue.
Like I said, from my own personal experience. The law DID NOT take an active reporting of rape serious at all. The way the police should react to it, is to react to it in the first place. And no corroborating evidence? As if even two women reporting the same thing isn't enough, let alone a dozen or more? Are you really that blind to the problem here? So yes, rape is a very serious charge. Let's hope the #metoo movement continues to get the law to recognize that.
 

Drifter

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Yesterday I read this pretty shocking news story in the UK, which I think shows the problem society still has with rape and why we still need better education and awareness.

The English and Welsh law regarding rape is very simple:
It is rape if person A penetrates person B, person B does not consent, and person A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
(We'll ignore penetration not involving a penis which is technically a different crime but carries the same penalty.)

Some of the findings of the survey:
  • A third think it doesn't count as rape if there was no violence.
  • A third of men think it's not rape if a woman flirted on a date but wasn't later up for sex.
  • A third of men think a women can't change her mind and ask to stop after sex has started.
  • 24% of people think non-consensual sex in a long term relationship (e.g. marriage) isn't rape.
    This varies substantially by age: 35% of over 65s but only 16% of 18-24s
  • 11% think it's not rape if the other person is asleep or too drunk to consent.
The concern is obviously that these people sit on juries, but their own beliefs aren't in line with the law. It's not hard to see why victims are reluctant to come forward when so many out-of-date views are still prevalent.
What is it you find shocking? That under English and Welsh law only men can be convicted of rape? Or that the majority of men, and/or people in general, believe lack of consent is a defining element in determining rape cases?

You provided a definition of rape, but other, significant terms in the law and in the survey were not defined or explained, such as: consent; penetrates; reasonably believe; flirted; up for sex. Laws are necessarily precise, and we can't assume everyone has the same understanding of the terms. They need to be spelled out.
 

CrinklyConnor

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I don't need sources to point out Human Greed, people have sued businesses before successfully (or sometimes failed, but they still tried), you are dead wrong if you believe nobody has ever made false claims to try to make easy money off of rich people, it has happened to businesses so you know it has to have happened to individuals.
Yes, it has happened to businesses. But we're talking about people falsely accusing others of sexual assault/rape for financial gain.

This is absolutely no relevant comparison, and you either have evidence that this is happening enough in order draw attention to it, or you don't. And if you can't even do that, then your credibility on any of your posts has been severely damaged, as if it hasn't already.
 

Drifter

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As if even two women reporting the same thing isn't enough, let alone a dozen or more?
It isn't. It might be enough for an investigation, but not enough for a conviction without corroborating evidence or a confession from the accused.
 

BabyTyrant

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Yes, it has happened to businesses. But we're talking about people falsely accusing others of sexual assault/rape for financial gain.

This is absolutely no relevant comparison, and you either have evidence that this is happening enough in order draw attention to it, or you don't. And if you can't even do that, then your credibility on any of your posts has been severely damaged, as if it hasn't already.
The point being people will try ANYTHING for some $, it doesn't matter if it is trying to scam sellers on eBay, a bogus "slip and fall" at a Supermarket, or false claims of Rape, these can all be attempted scams for the same reason GREED.
 

CrinklyConnor

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The point being people will try ANYTHING for some $, it doesn't matter if it is trying to scam sellers on eBay, a bogus "slip and fall" at a Supermarket, or false claims of Rape, these can all be attempted scams for the same reason GREED.
Okay, since you clearly can't comprehend english, I'll stop trying to conversate with you on this. You can't provide any evidence of this, so I'm going to automatically assume you're wrong / trying to gather attention by starting controversial, unbacked threads.
 

BabyTyrant

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Okay, since you clearly can't comprehend english, I'll stop trying to conversate with you on this. You can't provide any evidence of this, so I'm going to automatically assume you're wrong / trying to gather attention by starting controversial, unbacked threads.
And clearly you are gullible enough to buy OceanFront property in Arizona if you honestly dont realize people lie and people make up false claims to get easy $ out of somebodies pocket all the time.
 

Vic92

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The point being people will try ANYTHING for some $, it doesn't matter if it is trying to scam sellers on eBay, a bogus "slip and fall" at a Supermarket, or false claims of Rape, these can all be attempted scams for the same reason GREED.
What percentage are liars? And is that percentage enough to justify treating every accusation with suspicion?
 

BabyTyrant

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What percentage are liars? And is that percentage enough to justify treating every accusation with suspicion?
I would probably say a pretty small amount, after all not every person accused of Rape even has enough money for money to be the motive for making a false claim.

I was merely pointing out the human race in general is greedy, greed is an innate characteristic Humans have probably always had, and not only is it probable that someone would go after a millionaire and say they raped them, but it's most certainly happened several times.

But you are never gonna hear a liar fest up and say "I only said that because I wanted money", no; they will keep lying the whole time.

Regardless I think they need to do the investigation seriously, and not just believe either person.

If every victim was believed immediately they could just say that they said no at a later date; while saying they said no the whole time.

Look at the accused and investigate them and the accuser equally (they dont have to outright say that they believe either one is guilty or innocent or accuse them; just investigate and see if anybodies story changes, see if there are inconsistencies, etc) until you have the facts down and you know whether the claim is true, or if the victim had some sort of ulterior motive.

If there are a bunch of victims, that is the only time I would immediately believe the victims without a proper investigation first.
 

Traemo

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It isn't. It might be enough for an investigation, but not enough for a conviction without corroborating evidence or a confession from the accused.
Determining whether or not enough evidence exists for conviction is the responsibility of the Courts and, to a lesser extent, the prosecuting attorneys.
Let's try this, you've accused me of being out of touch on more than one occasion; so, let's build on that.
List off every course of formal education you've taken, what grades you received, independent evaluation of each instructor's competence, proof that you actually attended the majority of sessions for each course, the applicability of each course to the current discussion, a formal thesis describing your personal political and ethical views in detail, what sort of clothing do you usually wear for educational activities, . . . .
Now imagine being questioned like this, possibly for hours and in public, as result of reporting an assault. Consider the fact that, prima facie, Brock Turner committed rape. And was slapped on the wrist because conviction would ruin the rest of his life. There's no mention of how what Turner did will effect the rest of HER life. Consider that crime labs have back logs of years for rape kits (there are in fact some kits that will never be tested because they got back burnered so long the statute of limitations expired on the crime). That is, a report was made, an investigation was started and for various reasons the evidence was processed so slowly that even if it came back as a slam dunk for conviction, it can't be tried.
Yes, there's needs to be some allowance for false reporting (highest estimate I've seen is just over 2% of REPORTED cases are false, with the low estimate on UNREPORTED cases being 30%). Seems to me what we really need are better protections and assistance for victims here, not more barriers to reporting.
 

Drifter

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Consider the fact that, prima facie, Brock Turner committed rape. And was slapped on the wrist because conviction would ruin the rest of his life.
"Prima facie" is an implicit presumption of guilt. It may have more technical meanings in a legal setting but, whether we like it or not, the court system is constitutionally required to presume innocence until guilt is proven.

According to witnesses a rape did not take place, but they believed Turner would have raped the victim if they had not intervened. We will never know for sure, but the court was satisfied with the evidence and testimony so Turner was convicted of sexual assault with intent to commit rape, along with two other felony charges: sexual assault of an unconscious person and sexual assault of an intoxicated person. Whether or not three felony convictions would "ruin" his life is a matter of speculation, but the convictions still stand. His attempt to have the convictions overturned in a new trial were denied.
There's no mention of how what Turner did will effect the rest of HER life.
But this is a pretty dicey area, isn't it? We can speculate all we want but how deep should we actually go in examining the victim's character and lifestyle? Without that information we can only guess. Maybe she merely shrugged it off as one of the hazards of her chosen lifestyle. Maybe the publicity was more damaging the the actual act. Maybe she was devastated by the act and will be depressed and suicidal for the rest of her life. We don't know. How much should this kind of information have impacted the convicting and sentencing of the defendant?
Consider that crime labs have back logs of years for rape kits (there are in fact some kits that will never be tested because they got back burnered so long the statute of limitations expired on the crime). That is, a report was made, an investigation was started and for various reasons the evidence was processed so slowly that even if it came back as a slam dunk for conviction, it can't be tried.
Yes, there's needs to be some allowance for false reporting (highest estimate I've seen is just over 2% of REPORTED cases are false, with the low estimate on UNREPORTED cases being 30%). Seems to me what we really need are better protections and assistance for victims here, not more barriers to reporting.
I agree. But there is a political hurdle (at least in the U.S.) that needs to be overcome to address these issues. It will cost money to solve these problems, and anything that increases taxes or the national debt is a sin to most politicians.
 

SpAzpieSweeTot

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Y'know that moment when you completely disgender someone, because, internet anonymity. . .? Yeah. . . Fixing now.

As I understand it, his entire point, that I feel like you're missing, is that, with the good of the movement, could come some unentended very bad. That's what BabyTyrant is saying, and that's all he's saying. He's not hating the female half of the species, just the vampiric, evil, man (and, general person)-destroying at all costs, members of the species. Some people are vampiric, soul sucking, evil assholes, women are people, therefore, some women are that way, and some men are that way, because men are people, and we should watch the hell out, because this could be dangerous. If I understand him correctly, no wonder that's his point! Being he's a guy, this whole thing would be terrifying!

Just to point out that, rape was, for a long time, and is still, in a lot of places, seen as a crime against women, remember, you can't do a rape kit for the hand on the shoulder, that made her feel uncomfortable. The law only recently changed to include men at all. How is that okay? I'm female. If I envelope by mouth, or fondle, a man, who didn't, or couldn't, for whatever reason, consent, or, God forbid, I use my position of power, to threaten his life, or livelihood (Let's say as his probation, or parole, or other corrections officer.) I'd be a rapist. Goodness, took it long enough, huh?

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k9s5H-RNjxY[/video]

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_4QRRKogAk[/video]

If I were a man, I wouldn't go near most women.

Say, "nice dress," or try to give constructive criticism as her mentor in the workplace, and have her call, "harassment"?

No, thank you!

Should people really be able to have the power to destroy innocent lives, because they can claim it, without being able to prove it? It's about to be very dangerous to be a man. A whole heck of a lot of women are evil. Y'all, seriously, there's a reason I'm not a feminist! A lot of men are evil, too, but, just saying. This worries me. Granted, I could be missing his point, entirely.

This terrifies me, as a woman, who, at some point, would like to raise a son. Add that to the fact that he'll probably be white, and, since, seems to me, 2 wrongs apparently make a right now, and white men are the last group it's okay to aggress against. . .
 
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BabyTyrant

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@SpAzpieSweeTot: precisely, I never implied that it was a completely bad thing, just that at some point it could cause negative things to happen to (if it hasn't already), and just because in the past Women "didn't have a voice" as some of you put it, doesn't automatically mean to 100% believe them now; at least not without a proper investigation, after all Rape is such a big thing that literally could ruin a persons life.

And false reports (regardless of reason) do in fact happen, if you are gonna essentially ruin somebody's life you need to make damn sure they are guilty of the reported crime, and thus deserve it.

It seems due to a lot of awful wrongs in the past there is too much of an attempt to do a 180 (and in some cases keep going after that), for instance we know slavery and segregation were wrong, does that mean that we should act like every single black person arrested/shot was solely because they were black?

We cant automatically take opposite stances to things that happened in the past because we are trying to make these groups feel like they are finally getting the treatment and respect they should have got all along, we have come a long way but some of these attempts to make past injustices right are simply going too far, and there are clearly some negative consequences to these things.

Society has came a long way and for people to act like nothing has changed still? I mean come on, not everybody is a victim, nor is everyone racist (towards black people or any other "minority" group), and not everyone is as pure hearted (therefore honest and not greedy for money) as some of us would like to believe
 

LimeBloodedNoir

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From my personal experience, its only annoying when people use the hashtag for jokes or to blackmail other.
I really dont feel like sharing these experiences is... Annoying. At the heart of it is a good cause, trying to bring light on just how many evil people are out there.
males and females. Both can be victims and both can be the abusers. It seems like many people just forget how much abuse really does go around now days.

Nevertheless. Yeah, some of the accusations need to be taken with a grain of salt. Its the internet after all.
 

BabyTyrant

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From my personal experience, its only annoying when people use the hashtag for jokes or to blackmail other.
I really dont feel like sharing these experiences is... Annoying. At the heart of it is a good cause, trying to bring light on just how many evil people are out there.
males and females. Both can be victims and both can be the abusers. It seems like many people just forget how much abuse really does go around now days.

Nevertheless. Yeah, some of the accusations need to be taken with a grain of salt. Its the internet after all.
That last part is pretty big for me, I mean how is it that The Internet gives people more of a voice and credibility than actually reporting the rape in person?

Anybody can say anything about anybody online and for the most part will get away with it 100%, no punishment (except it cases where the person punished lived in a country that doesn't really have true freedom of speech, like Russia, North Korea, China, etc; where if you make any kind of a joke about the leader or Express beliefs they dont like you can get put in jail/even executed if it is bad enough), and freedom of speech is great, but wouldn't you be more than a little pissed off if you were one of the few people falsely accused of rape? Soon millions of people will know your name and believe you are some sort of monster that has raped loads of people and will continue to do so if you arent stopped.
 
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