American Left and Right

PaddedStag

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You don't see the contradiction there?

But what are they rallying around?... a meaningless campaign slogan.

America will never be great if it is never able to see past the labels, stereotypes, and campaign slogans.
What contradiction?
Embracing legal immigrants and Citizens while calling-out the illegal/radical terrorists is a bad thing now?

America will continue swirling down the toilet until Americans finally stop making excuses for bullshit behavior and hold people accountable for the things they DO (both good and bad), instead of beating a dead horse issue that's seen millions of tax-payer's $$$ wasted and our Countries elected officials spinning their wheels to no meaningful effect.

I do believe that a mind is like a parachute: it works best when open.
I do not believe a mind has to be so full of holes, it resembles Swiss Cheese, however. (interesting fact: parachutes don't work too well when they're full of holes, either)
 
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BabyTyrant

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I think some people don't know there is a difference between Anti-Illegal immigration and anti-Legal immigration

I believe everyone should have a chance to move to other countries that will be able to give them a better life they can never have where the live

But there is a process to follow, nobody is saying legal immigration is easy, but if you want to move somewhere legally, you can find a way

If I moved to another country, I would expect them to want me to learn their language and get used to their customs and the things they do; same as should be expected of legal immigrants to America

They can keep their own language and culture alive; just learn the language of whichever they are going to (America having English, but a different English from other countries that speak English) and idk if Citizenship Tests are still a thing, but why not learn the History too even if it isnt required?

I dont see why anyone would find such terms to be unreasonable
 

PaddedStag

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I think some people don't know there is a difference between Anti-Illegal immigration and anti-Legal immigration

I believe everyone should have a chance to move to other countries that will be able to give them a better life they can never have where the live

But there is a process to follow, nobody is saying legal immigration is easy, but if you want to move somewhere legally, you can find a way

If I moved to another country, I would expect them to want me to learn their language and get used to their customs and the things they do; same as should be expected of legal immigrants to America

They can keep their own language and culture alive; just learn the language of whichever they are going to (America having English, but a different English from other countries that speak English) and idk if Citizenship Tests are still a thing, but why not learn the History too even if it isnt required?

I dont see why anyone would find such terms to be unreasonable
Absolutely, 100% agree with everything you typed!
 

Icewolf

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I think some people don't know there is a difference between Anti-Illegal immigration and anti-Legal immigration
Part of it is also, thanks to labels and the like, people tend to take one thing, blow it out of proportion and use it to try and derail discussions. Like on Immigration, they hear someone is against illegal, some "smart guy" will use that to make it sound like they are against all immigration. The one just against illegal immigration gets labeled as being against all immigration and called a bigot or whatever for their "extremist views".
 

BabyTyrant

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Part of it is also, thanks to labels and the like, people tend to take one thing, blow it out of proportion and use it to try and derail discussions. Like on Immigration, they hear someone is against illegal, some "smart guy" will use that to make it sound like they are against all immigration. The one just against illegal immigration gets labeled as being against all immigration and called a bigot or whatever for their "extremist views".
Yeah I have noticed that

I am completely against "jumping over a fence" immigration; but if it is done through the normal "legal" way I have no problems with it at all

Everyone should have a chance to a good life, and unfortunately some countries dont allow such opportunities for most of their Citizens and that is why they flock to developed countries that will give them opportunities and more than likely treat them like an actual human

It's crazy to me that in some countries being Gay is punishable with imprisonment or death, but that is how it is and the best thing people can do in such a situation is get out and move to a country where most people are not so harshly against people being different just because it's in a way that doesn't align with a countries "traditional, old world views"
 

mickdl

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I just like to come back to the beginning of this thread - the “American left and right”: First of all I don’t think that this is a American problem only. I’m a German and we had our European election. While looking to the results and this thread at last I learned a couple of things: First of all - these “left / right“ arguments are more or less the same in all western country’s and this thinking have still deep roots in our minds. It’s mostly caused by the fear of loss and for that reason it’s more present around older people who have mostly more to loss. How ever interestingly this “discussion” still absorbs a lot of power that maybe could be used for more important things. In Germany many “young” (under 60) people had understood that this “left / right” might be not the discussion that is needed at this time. They chose a different option giving the traditional left and right parties a nice good by and sending them into historical losses. They decide that it’s time to talk about the real problems of this world - the environmental time bomb that is ticking and the things that we can do against it. Despite of the fact that the party they elected may have also there problems to solve this problem, it shows that there is also a different option then left or right: Think problem oriented and start with the most important - and what can be more important as to save the planet for the next generation?
 

Drifter

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What contradiction?
Embracing legal immigrants and Citizens while calling-out the illegal/radical terrorists is a bad thing now?
Trump has not yet named one terrorist or terrorist group from Mexico, Central America, or South America, yet you praise him for "having the balls to specify the culture/theology of the people in them". When you lump the culture and religion of all the peoples living south of the Rio Grande River together as a single stereotype that implies a predilection for terrorism, and then claim that MAGA "encompasses ALL of 'America' - every religion, every culture...", I see that as a contradiction. The heritage of millions of Americans comes from countries south of our border.

The American ideal does encompass all these things, but MAGA encompasses nothing. If that silly, meaningless, campaign slogan does anything at all it provokes continued bigotry and divisiveness.
 
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Drifter

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@mickdl,
Sounds like the German people are trying to break away from this left/right nonsense and take a more direct, common sense, approach to their serious problems. I believe this is the right approach and would like to see it tried in America.

One thing though, being one of the old people, I hope we can avoid stereotyping people by age. :)
 

mickdl

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One thing though, being one of the old people, I hope we can avoid stereotyping people by age. :)
Your right - this would be not fair and also wrong to reduce such a effect to the age (maybe my mistake because I was here not clear enaugh). In fact this vary much in Europe and it would be a wrong conclusion that older people are more “right” then junger. Actually the results in European Countries are really mixed - e.g. in Italy or Poland also jung voters are pretty conservative . How ever in Germany, France, and Denmark statistics had show a different trend. In Germany the conservatives (CDU/CSU) recruits 39% of their votes from people over 60 but only now 13.6% from those under 60. If you brake this down to win/losses they had lost more junger then older people - but they had lost older too...

My intention was just to show that there might be a way to overcome this left right think - and I thought the European elections where a good example how this can work just with some initiatives from the base like the friday demonstrations (#FridaysForFuture) or the nice Youtube Video that was presented by Rezo a couple of days in-front of the elections that had left both big partys just with wide eyes and mouth unable to come up with even one valuable argument against him or his message.
 

SgtOddball

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The American ideal does encompass all these things, but MAGA encompasses nothing. If that silly, meaningless, campaign slogan does anything at all it provokes continued bigotry and divisiveness.
And yet statistically it is the Left-wing have been more bigoted and divisive during Trump's presidency.
 

mickdl

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Yes - and they run into there next dilemma last Wednesday after the short interview with Robert S. Mueller...
 

PaddedStag

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Trump has not yet named one terrorist or terrorist group from Mexico, Central America, or South America, yet you praise him for "having the balls to specify the culture/theology of the people in them". When you lump the culture and religion of all the peoples living south of the Rio Grande River together as a single stereotype that implies a predilection for terrorism, and then claim that MAGA "encompasses ALL of 'America' - every religion, every culture...", I see that as a contradiction. The heritage of millions of Americans comes from countries south of our border.

The American ideal does encompass all these things, but MAGA encompasses nothing. If that silly, meaningless, campaign slogan does anything at all it provokes continued bigotry and divisiveness.
I'm sure there are many Names/Groups of known gangs 'South of the Border'
Is Trump supposed to keep a tally and recite them every time he brings-up the hordes of illegals entering our Country?
He has called-out many of the radical terrorists under the common Name 'ISIS', but there are also groups that go by differing Names.

Tell us again how Trump has shied-away from calling out the dangers such groups present, simply because he didn't recite that list of Names?
I don't imagine he has that much time, and it's utterly irrelevant to the topic.

If 'MAGA' encompasses nothing, why does it seem to trigger so many ignorant SJW's? What are they so angry about, if the acronym means nothing, hmmm?

"Make America Great Again"

I can stand by that.

With Pride.
 

BabyTyrant

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I'm sure there are many Names/Groups of known gangs 'South of the Border'
Is Trump supposed to keep a tally and recite them every time he brings-up the hordes of illegals entering our Country?
He has called-out many of the radical terrorists under the common Name 'ISIS', but there are also groups that go by differing Names.

Tell us again how Trump has shied-away from calling out the dangers such groups present, simply because he didn't recite that list of Names?
I don't imagine he has that much time, and it's utterly irrelevant to the topic.

If 'MAGA' encompasses nothing, why does it seem to trigger so many ignorant SJW's? What are they so angry about, if the acronym means nothing, hmmm?

"Make America Great Again"

I can stand by that.

With Pride.
Well I for one know Trump apparently had commentary about 1 or 2 Violent Gangs that originated South of The Border and as immigrants came from some of those countries, some of them were gang members of some sort and brought the gang activies with them

I think one of them was MS13 which was in the news at one point because one of its members had been charged with murdering some young boy because the gang "owned him" and could do anything with his Life

It doesn't seem like a bad idea to carefully screen immigrants that may be bringing trouble with them; not everyone is what they appear to be; which can go both in good ways and bad ways.
 

SgtOddball

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MS13 is an ultra Violent gang, though really they should just be classified as a terrorist group. Don't think it is known how widespread they are though.
 

Drifter

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If 'MAGA' encompasses nothing, why does it seem to trigger so many ignorant SJW's?
It "seems" like that because "SJW" is just another ignorant way to try to stereotype people.
I'm sure there are many Names/Groups of known gangs 'South of the Border'
Is Trump supposed to keep a tally and recite them every time he brings-up the hordes of illegals entering our Country?
I think one of them was MS13
MS-13 was born in the U.S.A.. It's relatively rapid rise to international status was due, in part, to American deportation policies.
 

BabyTyrant

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It "seems" like that because "SJW" is just another ignorant way to try to stereotype people.


MS-13 was born in the U.S.A.. It's relatively rapid rise to international status was due, in part, to American deportation policies.
Okay, but still it is a gang that originated with Immigrants, it's too bad that Gangs always seem to "break bad" they always seem to start with good intentions, but then become increasingly violent and whatnot later on
 

Drifter

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And yet statistically it is the Left-wing have been more bigoted and divisive during Trump's presidency.
The cure for that would be to eliminate the Left-wing. That shouldn't be too hard to do since it's just an artificial distinction.
 

SgtOddball

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The cure for that would be to eliminate the Left-wing. That shouldn't be too hard to do since it's just an artificial distinction.
The cure would be to eliminate the extremist element (same goes for the Right), not getting rid of the left wing, and yes I do know that the political divides (i.e Left, Right and Center) are technically Falsehoods.
 

BabyTyrant

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Are you sure about that? Are you sure none of the original gang members were American citizens?

Huh?
Gangs dont start out with a plan to be a criminal organization, it's always protecting themselves and others like them

But they all turn later on as original leaders either end up dead, in prison, or they leave the gang ; and then new leadership takes over that doesn't care about the original intention
 
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