American Left and Right

Drifter

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I find that the description in the initial post represents the 5% of the most extreme ends of the left right spectrum. I think most Americans are in the middle.
I have voted libertarian party for the last four elections. Conservative financially ( Gary Johnson wanted to roll back military spending to 2003 levels), socially liberal ( pro gay rights, pro choice, pro gun rights( with state regulation) equal voice and uninhibited free speech.
That's why the initial post says "People will be quick to point out that not everyone fits these stereotypical patterns, and I agree. Most people don't like to be stereotyped at all. This is what makes it confusing. In the context we are using here, "right" and "left" have no physical reality. They are just concepts of pure stereotypes, yet so many people willingly stereotype themselves with these labels. "
 

daddyconnor

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I can't change your mind, huh? You still "opt out and really don't care anymore"? I know the feeling. Honestly! I discussed this very option with my ex a week ago. As an old man with relatively little time left, why should I care? I don't know why. I just do.
Being in the business I was in, I saw all of these people on both sides after a few drinks were in them. So that whole "In Vino Veritas" thing is absolutely true by the way. I'm pretty dead inside regarding politics as a result.

So not being jerky here, I sincerely mean it when I say that I believe politics is just something that I no longer care about.

Discussing it has never led to any real change... kind of like those crazy preachers that go to college campuses and scream about students being fornicators has ever won them a single convert from those alleged fornicators.

To put it another way, make this about beliefs, not just politics. Could anyone ever convince you that all ABDL and ageplay are horrific/wrong stemming from mental illness? Of course not... because nobody that I know of who is abdl would agree to that. You wouldn't care how carefully their arguements were constructed.

The same thing applies to other deeply held beliefs... like politics.

Virtually nobody changes their mind until they are affected personally in a substantial way. And even then, it doesn't happen that often. Kind of like cancer patients smoking on their deathbed.
 

Drifter

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Even if it's at the cost of having a democratic society? Trump...
This is an important point. But, to me, it is also important to see Trump as a symptom of the serious mental disorder our country is experiencing, and not as the cause of it or the cure for it; merely one of the unpleasant side effects. (Keeping in mind that side effects can sometimes be more deadly than the disease itself.)
 

Trevor

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Being in the business I was in, I saw all of these people on both sides after a few drinks were in them. So that whole "In Vino Veritas" thing is absolutely true by the way. I'm pretty dead inside regarding politics as a result.

So not being jerky here, I sincerely mean it when I say that I believe politics is just something that I no longer care about.

Discussing it has never led to any real change... kind of like those crazy preachers that go to college campuses and scream about students being fornicators has ever won them a single convert from those alleged fornicators.

To put it another way, make this about beliefs, not just politics. Could anyone ever convince you that all ABDL and ageplay are horrific/wrong stemming from mental illness? Of course not... because nobody that I know of who is abdl would agree to that. You wouldn't care how carefully their arguements were constructed.

The same thing applies to other deeply held beliefs... like politics.

Virtually nobody changes their mind until they are affected personally in a substantial way. And even then, it doesn't happen that often. Kind of like cancer patients smoking on their deathbed.
Oddly, many of us start out in the camp of believing being an ABDL is wrong. I'm open to someone laying out their argument but I think anyone who believes it is wrong starts from different fundamental principles than I do. Some of that is the at the root of the political problem but I have changed my views over the years.

Forums are more likely to change my mind over matters of fact but even in the more esoteric, I've had my mind changed here a few times. Most often, it has been about matters of ABDL ethics, where the ground is not so well-trodden.
 

Drifter

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This is a great article for you to read

This discussion becomes a lot easier to understand if you view the split not as left/right, but rural/urban. It's not a perfect match either, but closer.
Very interesting articles. Thanks! The rural/urban split does give a real world basis for some of our opinions and biases, and this could help clarify some issues, but the split still exists, and these articles themselves could not avoid referencing left/right or liberal/conservative stereotypes. Stereotypes may not be completely avoidable in political discussions, but my concern still is how quickly legitimate political discussions can become useless, campaign style, political rhetoric through careless use of stereotypes.

One article also points out the the problem with the electoral systems in Canada and the U.S.. Namely that representatives are sometimes elected by a minority of voters rather than a majority.

Supporters of the electoral college in the U.S. claim that it is a defense against the majority becoming an authoritarian dictatorship, as if the "majority" is the same group of people on every issue. I don't buy that claim. One of the biggest threats to our democracy is how powerful people try to game the system, and they will continue to do that with or without the electoral college. In some ways the electoral college makes it easier for them to get away with it.
 

Drifter

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There's a lot of good points in this thread. I think, honestly, that for a lot of the ideas presented thusfar to be successful, the current panic culture that the US is in will have to be addressed first. The extremism in the first place may very well have been caused by that.
Panic culture?
 

Drifter

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So not being jerky here, I sincerely mean it when I say that I believe politics is just something that I no longer care about.
Not a problem. We all get to choose these things for ourselves.
Discussing it has never led to any real change... kind of like those crazy preachers that go to college campuses and scream about students being fornicators has ever won them a single convert from those alleged fornicators.

To put it another way, make this about beliefs, not just politics. Could anyone ever convince you that all ABDL and ageplay are horrific/wrong stemming from mental illness? Of course not... because nobody that I know of who is abdl would agree to that. You wouldn't care how carefully their arguements were constructed.

The same thing applies to other deeply held beliefs... like politics.
You and I agreed reliable information could possibly change that; no guarantees, just possibilities.
 

CutePrincess

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Since this is the mature forum, and we are all entitled to our own opinions as long as we aren't being overly negative or unaccepting of others, I'm going to go ahead and throw in my own opinion on this.

Right or Left? I think the meaning of each of these is becoming more obscure. Our current situation in this country is seeing extremism that I have never seen before in my lifetime.

It used to be that "the right" was considered conservatives and "the left" more liberals. Historically, the Republican party considered themselves on the right and conservatives, and Democrats more liberals on the left. But good grief!!! Our current Republican administration and presidency has moved well past conservative values and democracy and more towards a dictatorship than in any time that I know of in the history of the United States.

There has been disagreements over how the government should be run for the 243 years it has been in existence. Should it be more liberal, should it be more conservative? Should we have more government control or less? This has gone back and forth since the Declaration of Independence was even being considered.

But because of the foresight of the initial leaders of this country, they set up the government with multiple sharing of powers. With no one portion of government to have more control or power over the others and each portion of government to be accountable to the other. The executive branch (the president), the legislative branch (congress), and the judicial branch (judges). Each were given unique responsibilities to make sure that no one branch could just run things on their own. And if one branch tried to usurp to much authority, the other branches could keep them in check. So, regardless of the trend of society or who was elected into the positions, whether the Wigs, the Republicans, the Democrats, or whoever, there was a means to make certain that we didn't become a country that was led by a monarchy or kingdom rather than a republic and democracy was the rule.

But my goodness, lately I am growing more and more concerned that we are not about being right or left. Rather, the circumstances that have been happening in the past two years and escalating in the most current months, leads me to believe that one branch, the executive branch, is leaning so far past right or left. It seems that he is saying to hell with the constitution and balance of powers, I am the CEO of this country and I am going to do whatever I want. Be damned if I am going to be accountable to the other branches of government.

During the recent months I have heard over and over that the executive branch is not complying with the "Democrats" demands for information. Whether it be the Mueller report, subpoenas for tax returns, or subpoenas to hear testimony from other executive branch officials. This is on everything from granting security clearances for relatives of the president that he has "appointed" into positions (not elected mind you, or even gone through a equal employment opportunity hiring process --but simply given these positions based not on merit, but on relation) when normal operating procedures would not have cleared them because of conflicts of interest, to subpeonas for testimony regarding potential obstruction of justice. In these cases where evidence exists that this may have occurred, but the executive power has prohibited employees of the executive branch from responding to congressional request for testimony.

My concern here is that despite the fact that the House of Representatives is led by Democrats, it is still the House of Representatives and part of the legislative branch. They were elected as equally as the President in the executive branch. So it is not "the Democrats" that are concerned about the potential abuse of power, obstruction of justice, and possible collusion with a foreign country, but it is Congress. Whether you are republican, democrat, or any other party, you have to be concerned about the fact that one branch of government, in this case one man, is thumbing his nose at the other branches and moving forward in actions without regard to the other branches of government. Maybe it is that the
democrats are just trying to reach out to find something on the President. But still, it is Congress and it is in their constitutional power to do so. And if there is nothing to hide, then, why not just release the information requested?

Take for instance the recent trade war with China. What the HELL? Was there any consultation with Congress about this? How about even consultation with the Senate, which is still led by the same party as the President. From what I can tell, one man, one LONE man, is taking actions that have dramatic and perhaps devastating effects upon an entire country, without regard from the voice of the people, which are represented in Congress. I am a real life cowboy, and guess what, this hits home as American agriculture is a huge loser in this one man's trade war.

And how about the situation with Iran? Only Congress is given authority to declare war, not the President. So why is the executive branch reaching so far out as to send naval and air forces into a situation without true consultation with Congress? Yes, the President is the Commander in Chief, but he cannot alone declare or start a war. Only Congress can do that. So why is he sending such forces into a very unstable and potentially explosive situation without consultation with Congress.

To me, it appears that the leader of the executive branch, with his years of experience in being a business CEO, has no clue or respect for the balance of powers of this country. Rather, he is blatently moving forward based on his business experience as a CEO, thinking he is the only power in control. This is not right! It doesn't matter if you are right or left or anywhere in-between.

The American constitution and by-laws were created to ensure that all of us as citizens, right or left, should have an equal opportunity to be heard and part of the political process of running the country. Our founding leaders did not intend for any one man to have total control and not be accountable to other branches of government. The Declaration of Independence was created with this in mind. That the PEOPLE, not a king or a monarchy, or a CEO, should have control of our destiny as a country and nation.

Right or left doesn't matter in the current situation here. What matters is that we do not become a dictatorship and that all sides, left and right are heard, recognized, and part of the process of being a nation run by the people, not a king or dictator.

--Wow, that was a bit of a rant. But I truly am concerned where we are headed with all of the things going on here. Never in my life have I ever seen such a conflict between the branches and constitutional balance of powers. I pray that we can work this out and that despite the differences between us as Americans that we don't find ourselves following the path of Germany and others who allowed one leader to take them into a path of self-destruction.

Just a few late night rants from an otherwise soft and cuddly teddy bear cowboy...
This is why I do not get the general GoP getting behind trump. conservative is supposed to be more local powers, in other words a TRUE republican would of voted to override his veto. That fake emergency breaks all kinds of intent of balance of power. Why people support it because of his fear mongering propaganda is beyond me.

It is not even right vs left anymore, it is people that want some order in this country vs alt right conspiracy theorists.
 
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Icewolf

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This is why I do not get the general GoP getting behind trump.
A lot of it likely has to do with the fact they feel caught between a rock and a hard place, they need the support of the party or those they feel support the party in order to counter the democrats because the democrats don't want to support them due to them being on the right/conservative.
Why people support it because of his fear mongering propaganda is beyond me.
Fear makes people make bad decisions/choices, and the biggest fear for a politician? losing power. Sad to say both sides do some fear mongering
It is not even right vs left anymore,
Actually, it still is, it just has more to it then that
it is people that want some order in this country vs alt right conspiracy theorists.
And here we go, they either want order or they are alt-right conspiracy theorists, yet "alt right conspiracy theorist" is another label that people can slap on anyone that does not agree with them. I find another conflict to be those that want everyone to be heard so people can make up their own minds vs. those that want to shut down discussion just because people don't agree with them.
 
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Drifter

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...they need the support of the party or those they feel support the party in order to counter the democrats because the democrats don't want to support them due to them being on the right/conservative.
This is exactly the kind of argument I am objecting to. It's an over-generalized conclusion about motive based entirely on two stereotypes: stereotypical "democrat", and "right/conservative". It's important to recognize we do have a problem with partisan politics, but we have to stop relying on overused stereotypes and focus more on specifics if we want to fix the problem.
And here we go, they either want order or they are alt-right conspiracy theorists, yet "alt right conspiracy theorist" is another label that people can slap on anyone that does not agree with them.
True.

You recognize when others use false stereotypes...
 

Icewolf

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t's an over-generalized conclusion about motive based entirely on two stereotypes: stereotypical "democrat", and "right/conservative".
It is over-generalized but in this case, it was reached because of the over-generalizations individuals have made. I was just trying to explain why "the general GOP" support Trump. I even prefaced it with "feel they are caught between a rock and a hard place" but guess where those feelings likely come from? The generalizations they make and the stereotypes they have about the other side. Personally? I find such things dumb and would prefer to find specific reasons one supports something/someone but without knowing the individuals the best we can do is generalizations until someone speaks up. For all we know, very few actually support Trump but they feel they have to toe the party line (and same can be said about some democrats/those on the left with their respective lines) and as such are either silent or putting on a face of support.
You recognize when others use false stereotypes...
I am also human so it can be hard to see when I do such, especially if I am not meaning to do them.
 

CutePrincess

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And here we go, they either want order or they are alt-right conspiracy theorists, yet "alt right conspiracy theorist" is another label that people can slap on anyone that does not agree with them. I find another conflict to be those that want everyone to be heard so people can make up their own minds vs. those that want to shut down discussion just because people don't agree with them.
Has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with. Every single, PERSON, that I SPOKE to, even on this SITE, that supports trump, has some made up fake views on what is going on. So I am not sure what you expect me to say, when people only prove what I said, to be the case of what is going on here. I am not going to pretend, something else is taking place, just because I want to fight to be unbiased as possible.

For example, lets take the wall thing. The reasons why we so called "need" a wall is skewed propaganda, and over exaggerations. Some take it further by saying democrats want illegals because they make money off it, like Nancy Pelosi having safe houses for them. So yeah it is not right vs left, it is something, whatever label you want to use, vs alt right. Trump is not a Republican, hes a leader of feeding these conspiracy theories and blame democrats for everything. "fake news" "fake news" there is no "right" it is alt right, for now. I am not disagreeing with a different view, I think im more then capable of seeing that. What I hate and dispise is seeing all this fake information following then others saying "respect it because it is just the right side of the political spectrum"
 
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Icewolf

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Has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with.
No, it has to do with being willing to LISTEN to others, tossing labels like "alt-right" around just shows either an inability or unwillingness to do such.
Every single, PERSON, that I SPOKE to, even on this SITE, that supports trump, has some made up fake views on what is going on.
One can support Trump in one area and speak out against him in another, which is the REASON we need to be willing to listen on individual issues. Yet there are those that seem to be of the mind that if one supports Trump in one area, they support him in all areas.
when people only prove what I said, to be the case of what is going on here
When I see things like this happening, I wonder where the breakdown in communication is or if someone is being a hard head that is set in their views.
For example, lets take the wall thing.
Lets. there are those of us that might see the wall as part of what is needed or see it as at least something that is a step in what needs to be done. There is a real need for immigration reform and border security yet the wall is the only real plan with a set goal currently (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong here). It does not help matters when even the idea of more security, with or without the wall, is shot down by others. I admit I see at least repairing and adding section to the wall MIGHT be needed, but I'd rather see reform so those who do come across illegally don't feel that is their only choice.
What I hate and dispise is seeing all this fake information
Who decides what is fake? in this world what is fake to one person could be real to another and both sides can find things that support that view. the fact the best falsehoods tend to have a sliver of truth to them just muddies the waters even more, like that "skewed propaganda and over exaggerations" could easily have bases in what has been established. In fact, it is the skewing and exaggerations that people need to be able to figure out for themselves.
others saying "respect it because it is just the right side of the political spectrum"
And they have just as much right to speak be heard as you do, and actually trying to censor them can easily backfire. Sometimes the best way to silence others is to let them speak and others realize they are just blowing hot air. The more you try to censor someone, the more likely people are going to want to hear what they have to say. Just look at people trying to get things banned, say the Harry Potter books, all that came from such was more people checking it out for themselves to see what the fuss was about.

We got to this point because of people being unwilling to listen to others, now we have cries of "fake news" that keep the country heading down the same path. It is time to let people get the information, find out what is fake or real after looking at all possible sources. Those that wind up spewing nothing but fake news will likely die in conversations as more and more make up their own mind as long as some don't plant seeds of doubt like "ok, if they are speaking against this so much, there must be something they are hiding".
 

Drifter

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Notice how easily this discussion devolves into typical political nonsense as soon as "right" or "left" are mentioned as some kind of reality rather than the empty stereotypes they are?
 

Drifter

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For all we know, very few actually support Trump but they feel they have to toe the party line (and same can be said about some democrats/those on the left with their respective lines) and as such are either silent or putting on a face of support.
You got the first part right - "they feel they have to toe the party line", which is a flagrant violation of their oath of office. But instead of dealing with that directly you create a diversion by alluding to "democrats/those on the left", some unidentified people you claim are doing the same thing, as if that somehow would make it ok for other representatives to ignore the obligations of the office they were elected to. It doesn't! Hunt all the evil democrats you want, but do it at the right time. Don't bring it up in an attempt to divert attention away from our concerns about the current state of the constitutional checks and balances of our government.
I am also human so it can be hard to see when I do such, especially if I am not meaning to do them.
I know. I suffer from the same disease. :)
 

CutePrincess

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No, it has to do with being willing to LISTEN to others, tossing labels like "alt-right" around just shows either an inability or unwillingness to do such.

One can support Trump in one area and speak out against him in another, which is the REASON we need to be willing to listen on individual issues. Yet there are those that seem to be of the mind that if one supports Trump in one area, they support him in all areas.

When I see things like this happening, I wonder where the breakdown in communication is or if someone is being a hard head that is set in their views.

Lets. there are those of us that might see the wall as part of what is needed or see it as at least something that is a step in what needs to be done. There is a real need for immigration reform and border security yet the wall is the only real plan with a set goal currently (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong here). It does not help matters when even the idea of more security, with or without the wall, is shot down by others. I admit I see at least repairing and adding section to the wall MIGHT be needed, but I'd rather see reform so those who do come across illegally don't feel that is their only choice.

Who decides what is fake? in this world what is fake to one person could be real to another and both sides can find things that support that view. the fact the best falsehoods tend to have a sliver of truth to them just muddies the waters even more, like that "skewed propaganda and over exaggerations" could easily have bases in what has been established. In fact, it is the skewing and exaggerations that people need to be able to figure out for themselves.

And they have just as much right to speak be heard as you do, and actually trying to censor them can easily backfire. Sometimes the best way to silence others is to let them speak and others realize they are just blowing hot air. The more you try to censor someone, the more likely people are going to want to hear what they have to say. Just look at people trying to get things banned, say the Harry Potter books, all that came from such was more people checking it out for themselves to see what the fuss was about.

We got to this point because of people being unwilling to listen to others, now we have cries of "fake news" that keep the country heading down the same path. It is time to let people get the information, find out what is fake or real after looking at all possible sources. Those that wind up spewing nothing but fake news will likely die in conversations as more and more make up their own mind as long as some don't plant seeds of doubt like "ok, if they are speaking against this so much, there must be something they are hiding".
fake means it is something that is being made up for propaganda, like most things trump says, and most of his supporters, and all I spoken to. We do not need trumps wall to fix the issue, all that is misinformation. We been making strides to address it long before trump. The problem is with his alt right following and alt right GoP misinforming people on what is really going on. It is so bad when people ask him on REAL statistics that HIS OWN administration RELEASED!!! trump STILL CLAIMED it was "fake news" I have not spoken to a single trump supper that DID NOT have alt right "information" Trump has no plans on addressing the real problems with our border, he just wants to fear monger for his own personal agenda, filling his ego on putting something on our landscape. He has no views to help this country, it is all about his own gains and the gains for the select few around him. He does nothing good, this is why he needs alt right support really badly with all the misinformation around him. I am willing to listen, but the problem is the people brainwashed by this propaganda aren't. I got no clue what you have a problem with a label that correctly describes what is going on.

The problem here is it would be nice to believe this is just opposing views, we used to have that in the past. You are right, one can support trump, in one area, but not in others. But that is not the point. Show me someone that supports trump on ANYTHING without having a alt right propaganda as a reason. Needing better border security is not a good reason to support trump. You can agree that is an issue, with rejecting trump's "solutions" You (as in any you, in general sense, i got no clue what your views are) can't just blindly follow someone just because you support some issue that needs to be addressed. HOW it is addressed is VERY IMPORTANT and if the said solution truly will fix the problem, and trumps way of dealing with the border does not do that.

As for censoring... we do not have 100% free speech, we never have and never should have. It is wrong to let people harm others from misinformation just because you feel the need to promote everyone should be able say anything. Everyone being able say anything will throw us in the abyss, like how a fool walked in a pizza place to free children.

Your idealistic views does not work in trump world. Your views would only work in some Utopia or something close to it, and we are far from such situations. I agree that is how things SHOULD BE! but we need to be real here.
 
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Icewolf

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But instead of dealing with that directly you create a diversion by alluding to "democrats/those on the left", some unidentified people you claim are doing the same thing, as if that somehow would make it ok for other representatives to ignore the obligations of the office they were elected to. It doesn't!
Didn't mean to imply it did, usually I just make such as a show both sides do it and, honestly I find them both at fault for such. I don't find it ok for one side to do it just because the other side does it, we need to take both sides to task for such. Sorry for not making that clear before.
I am willing to listen, but the problem is the people brainwashed by this propaganda aren't.
Oh, some "brainwashed" might be willing to listen if you talked to them as people and not sub-human, if they really are unwilling to listen, move on and try to talk with those who are still open, without referencing the hard heads.
I got no clue what you have a problem with a label that correctly describes what is going on.
Then let me spell it out for you: one can apply that label to ANYONE that is farther right then them or thinks differently. Like to some I could be "alt-right". It is not the label as much as how it can be used that I have issues with. There are also those that hear/read "alt-right" and flat out refuse to listen to anything after that.
Show me someone that supports trump on ANYTHING without having a alt right propaganda as a reason. Needing better border security is not a good reason to support trump.
Actually, I do support Trump on somethings, but my reasoning on a lot of it is "he is at least trying to do something". I don't think the wall is a real solution, at best it is a stop-gap while better ideas can be put forth. At worst it is just a campaign promise he feels like he has to fill for those who voted for him.
HOW it is addressed is VERY IMPORTANT and if the said solution truly will fix the problem, and trumps way of dealing with the border does not do that.
Agreed, but currently it seems to be all we have, and neither side is willing to listen to the other but there are those of us currently supporting Trump that would be open to other options if they were put forth. I have yet to hear much that is more then just anti-Trump policies. If someone could come up with an actual plan that is workable to do instead of the wall, Trump's support might dry-up aside from his more fervent supporters.
As for censoring... we do not have 100% free speech, we never have and never should have.
Oh, even I know there are exceptions, such as those listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions and it could be said that the fake news could be under false statements of fact. Thing is there are already clear guidelines for such:
First, false statements of fact that are said with a "sufficiently culpable mental state" can be subject to civil or criminal liability.Secondly, knowingly making a false statement of fact can almost always be punished. For example, libel and slander law are permitted under this category. Third, negligently false statements of fact may lead to civil liability in some instances.[12] Additionally, some implicit statements of fact—those that may just have a "false factual connotation"—still could fall under this exception.
There is another that can also be protected, but it is not clear
There is also a fifth category of analysis. It is possible that some completely false statements could be entirely free from punishment. The Supreme Court held in the landmark case New York Times v. Sullivan (1964) that lies about the government may be protected completely.[15] However, this category is not entirely clear, as the question of whether false historical or medical claims are protected is still disputed.
We have those that are supposed to determine such, I'd take a court ruling that something was fake or false but without such? good luck. There are things even I would question, like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater. But again, it comes down to intent. So can you prove intent to cause harm?
Your idealistic views does not work in trump world.
I felt like they would not work in Obama world either, or really any "world" that has been around since the 2000s, at least as long as we just focus on those in power and their supporters. The country is divided and instead of trying to come together we seem to be growing further apart
Your views would only work in some Utopia or something close to it, and we are far from such situations.
Ever think I am trying to get us closer to that? Trump is temporary, that is a fact, but we still have to deal with the situation that helped him get elected in the first place. Otherwise we might just keep getting those like him or worse. To me Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of what has been going on in the country. we can treat the symptoms as they come, but as long as the cause remains, nothing will improve.
I agree that is how things SHOULD BE!
As do most here from what I have seen, and it is up to those here, and others, to fix what is wrong with the country. Republican/Democrat? don't vote for your party, vote for the one you feel will be best for your state/the country. Vote for those offering real solutions to issues we face, There are areas the democrats have the right ideas and those the republicans have the right ideas.
 

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Oh, some "brainwashed" might be willing to listen if you talked to them as people and not sub-human, if they really are unwilling to listen, move on and try to talk with those who are still open, without referencing the hard heads.
They do not, and you even seen it on a different thread here. Several people explain what the real situation is what what the information means what is being presented. Like it was explained how muller was not selling uranium to the Russians. It was refused to be listened to. You just want to pretend this is a perfect world where this propaganda situation does not exist, and you are wrong on such ideas. It is alt right misinformation, not recognizing it as such can be harmful.
Then let me spell it out for you: one can apply that label to ANYONE that is farther right then them or thinks differently. Like to some I could be "alt-right". It is not the label as much as how it can be used that I have issues with. There are also those that hear/read "alt-right" and flat out refuse to listen to anything after that.
I really feel this is just being argumentative. This has nothing to do with my point, why are you saying this? Do you really not understand my point?
Actually, I do support Trump on somethings, but my reasoning on a lot of it is "he is at least trying to do something". I don't think the wall is a real solution, at best it is a stop-gap while better ideas can be put forth. At worst it is just a campaign promise he feels like he has to fill for those who voted for him.
Doing "something" and taking the wrong route can be more harmful then doing nothing, or appear to be "doing nothing" but is really taking small EFFECTIVE steps, something that has been happening over the years. Trump is just misleading people. You falling for it actually has me stunned.
Agreed, but currently it seems to be all we have, and neither side is willing to listen to the other but there are those of us currently supporting Trump that would be open to other options if they were put forth. I have yet to hear much that is more then just anti-Trump policies. If someone could come up with an actual plan that is workable to do instead of the wall, Trump's support might dry-up aside from his more fervent supporters.
No, it is trump's side being the problem here. All they want to put forth is we spend xyz amount on xyz program, the us can afford the wall. No one listens to the problems with what trump is doing. look up info on will hurd, who he is and what he has to say on the matter.
I felt like they would not work in Obama world either, or really any "world" that has been around since the 2000s, at least as long as we just focus on those in power and their supporters. The country is divided and instead of trying to come together we seem to be growing further apart
And guess who is making it worse? Trump and everyone taking alt right propaganda as fact.
Ever think I am trying to get us closer to that? Trump is temporary, that is a fact, but we still have to deal with the situation that helped him get elected in the first place. Otherwise we might just keep getting those like him or worse. To me Trump is a symptom, not the cause, of what has been going on in the country. we can treat the symptoms as they come, but as long as the cause remains, nothing will improve.
This means accepting everything that is going on and understand what is happening. I am not tossing "alt right" mindlessly here. I am using alt right to reference all the fake tinfoil hat BS that trump and his followers like to make up and spread, like "fake news" to increase the divide. If you have this objective, you need to see everything for what it is. intent or not, i see a problem making up BS that leads to harassing innocent people and showing up to restaurants with guns where the people inside being victimized has nothing to do with the fake news being spread around because someone wants to hate on Hillary, like Alex Jones.

You know the problem? or part of the problem? trump does hint at it himself, the media. However trump is wrong on the exact problems the media has. I understood for a long time even when i was small because of my mom's work. The media will skew the story to make it sound like more of an issue then what it really is (make it more "exciting") for ratings. media of both sides do this, alt right pandering like fox and breitbart, and the left like CNN and what have you. Also we have a modern problem with the internet, it is so easy to make people believe fake BS.
 
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Icewolf

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Notice how easily this discussion devolves into typical political nonsense as soon as "right" or "left" are mentioned as some kind of reality rather than the empty stereotypes they are?
Yeah, sorry for my part in that Drifter, but it seems some can toss out labels just because they are what is happening in this country without realizing that labels are one reason we are in this mess in the first place. You try to talk sense to them and they just double down, they don't try to find out where one is coming from or why they have the views they do.

Hard heads come in all forms, but it is up to the rest of us to ignore them and try to come together without the labels.
 

CutePrincess

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Yeah, sorry for my part in that Drifter, but it seems some can toss out labels just because they are what is happening in this country without realizing that labels are one reason we are in this mess in the first place. You try to talk sense to them and they just double down, they don't try to find out where one is coming from or why they have the views they do.

Hard heads come in all forms, but it is up to the rest of us to ignore them and try to come together without the labels.
I am SO SORRY you do not like accurate labels to describe what is going on because you want to pretend people do not make up stories on someone so you do not vote for them. Do not look down on me because I am calling it what it is, alt right. See what is really happening please. The labels are not to blame, the people making up these lies are. People like trump are to blame. I know politicans lie, but not to the extent trump has done. Those lies increased the polical divide 10 fold. Those lies spin into others who further skew what is said. Trump is not a replbician, not acting like he does, and nether is any GoP that blindly supports him. If they held up to consertivie ideals, the fake emergency would not exist at all. But no alt right movement has people forget what the bases of US conservationism is.

I am not the one that needs "talking into sense" here.
 
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