American Left and Right

Drifter

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30 years ago the economy was weak and in recession. Under Bill Clinton the economy later improved significantly, but I don't think that's what Trump means by MAGA. Instead of tax cuts for the wealthy Clinton raised their taxes; no where near as high as previous levels before all their tax cuts, but enough to help the economy. If this is what Trump wants, more power to him. MAGA!
 

BabyGurlAlexa

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compared with European politics America doesnt have a left its right wing vs centre right
 

Drifter

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compared with European politics America doesnt have a left its right wing vs centre right
Hmmm... If there's a center right that would imply there is a left right, right? :)

Interesting point, though. If true, it makes you wonder how far America can fly on one wing.
 

CaterpillarSick

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compared with European politics America doesnt have a left its right wing vs centre right
I would argue that that's not true. I would say that typically Democrats would best be considered centre-left and Republicans centre-right. Both still have factions that are farther from the centre, but I'd say that the average member isn't as far right as you may think.

I can however see where you're coming from, Labour has moved farther left over the years and the Conservatives have moved to capture more of the right. The issue with American political parties is that our system of government doesn't really like more than two. Some of this is because we don't really have a process to call a snap election or fail to form a government. If bills can't be passed by the current Congress you have to wait 2 years for the next round of reelections. This is a massive blow to smaller political parties because they can't leverage that power.

However that power does exist inside the parties. Various factions compete for dominance to get their agenda prioritised. That's where the rest of the scale really comes into play.
 
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SgtOddball

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Sad but true. It's amazing how artificial distinctions like those can create so much hostility and divisiveness.
Not helped though when people on both sides move the center line or those within both parties that are not Center left or Center right, such as AOC.
 

Drifter

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Not helped though when people on both sides move the center line or those within both parties that are not Center left or Center right, such as AOC.
Sides? My views on abortion cause some people to spew out angry nonsense about me being a right-wing, close minded, fundamentalist. My views on welfare cause some people to spew out angry nonsense about me being a left-wing, bleeding heart commie. And so many people fall for this. We could easily discuss abortion and welfare in a civil and productive manner, except that as soon as someone brings up left-wing or right-wing ideology, the conversation immediately turns into a fight over these broad, and largely imaginary concepts, and the actual reality of these issues is ignored. Look at every single issue we, in the western world, discuss now days and see if that isn't true.
 
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SgtOddball

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Sides? My views on abortion cause some people to spew out angry nonsense about me being a right-wing, close minded, fundamentalist. My views on welfare cause some people to spew out angry nonsense about me being a left-wing, bleeding heart commie. And so many people fall for this. We could easily discuss abortion and welfare in a civil and productive manner, except that as soon as someone brings up left-wing or right-wing ideology, the conversation immediately turns into a fight over these broad, and largely imaginary concepts, and the actual reality of these issues is ignored. Look at every single issue we, in the western world, discuss now days and see if that isn't true.
Sad truth of politics I'm afraid. I actually had someone call me a Transphobe simply for saying that I disagree with Transgenders. In fact I've often had arguments with my dad based on the death penalty, something I believe is a necessity in the 21st Century against those who commit the most heinous of crimes etc. The world is really a funny place when you think about it.
 

CutePrincess

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Sad truth of politics I'm afraid. I actually had someone call me a Transphobe simply for saying that I disagree with Transgenders. In fact I've often had arguments with my dad based on the death penalty, something I believe is a necessity in the 21st Century against those who commit the most heinous of crimes etc. The world is really a funny place when you think about it.
I'm wondering the details of these issues when you bring them up, esp the death penalty (since it is easier to address and i got no clue what "disagree with transgenders" means. I do not see the point in disagreeing with a transgender saying something while you might agree with someone else saying it?

It is one thing to say "I want the death penalty to punish people that commit vole crimes, and that is something I can agree with. However there is more to the picture then this, with court costs and such, I do not want my taxes and government money being put in tons of extra spending to politicize if someone should be put to death. the processes is insanely expensive, so putting them in jail for life is fine enough, for the much cheaper cost.
 
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Drifter

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I do not want my taxes and government money being put in tons of extra spending to politicize if someone should be put to death.
Not to mention the time wasted! And it's not just the death penalty issue - it's every issue we face.

Question: Should we base our laws on what is right or what is least expensive?

Assuming the majority would want fair and just laws instead of cheaper to enforce but unjust laws, the next question, which goes to the heart of this thread, is, how do we limit politicizing so we have a better chance to reach agreement on settling issues? What does it mean to "politicize", anyway, if not "to get mired in useless left/right, liberal/conservative, nonsense"? Failure to make a firm decision on any issue seems to be an automatic part of the politicizing process. No matter what laws are passed, the opposing "side" will continuously work to weaken and repeal those laws, i.e. no issues are ever actually settled.
 
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CutePrincess

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Not to mention the time wasted! And it's not just the death penalty issue - it's every issue we face.

Question: Should we base our laws on what is right or what is least expensive?

Assuming the majority would want fair and just laws instead of cheaper to enforce but unjust laws, the next question, which goes to the heart of this thread, is, how do we limit politicizing so we have a better chance to reach agreement on settling issues? What does it mean to "politicize", anyway, if not "to get mired in useless left/right, liberal/conservative, nonsense"? Failure to make a firm decision on any issue seems to be an automatic part of the politicizing process. No matter what laws are passed, the opposing "side" will continuously work to weaken and repeal those laws, i.e. no issues are ever actually settled.
we have a huge debt, You can't squeeze blood from a turnip. efficiency is a factor, putting someone away for life for cheaper over expensive death penalty is logic, saying someone needs to be punished by death is emotional. why are we making laws by emotion over logic? Also who's authority is it to say someone needs to be put to death and that is "right"? If we use core beliefs of philology and religion as far as I know, not one interpretation says this. (other then needing to kill in self defense or defending others)

to address the other issue is to address human nature itself, no one wants to admit being wrong, how do we fix that? as a human race on a global scale, not just a country.
 
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Drifter

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to address the other issue is to address human nature itself, no one wants to admit being wrong, how do we fix that? as a human race on a global scale, not just a country.
We could start by recognizing we are all contributing to the problem by getting lost in stereotypes and not focusing on specific details. And that's only a start. The next step is, if we can't agree on anything else we have to at least agree on a method for settling disagreements. The old method no longer seems to be working.
 

CutePrincess

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We could start by recognizing we are all contributing to the problem by getting lost in stereotypes and not focusing on specific details. And that's only a start. The next step is, if we can't agree on anything else we have to at least agree on a method for settling disagreements. The old method no longer seems to be working.
what is this old method you speak of?
being open to what one has to say is another, along with truely understanding what is said, try leave word twisting at the door.
 

Lestat

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Op instead of doing the Lame Right or Left. maybe done a poll that lists what people might want and let people choose what they want. You will find a lot of people want to be in the Middle. Some Right some left.

Right Now I see Morons on the Right and Morons on the left. Throwing insults to each other and not looking at the key features.
 

Drifter

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what is this old method you speak of?
Electing representatives based on their opinions on various issues rather than their qualifications for office and their abilities to effectively work with people to find practical solutions to those issues. Filling government with people who's only qualification is that they are opinionated guarantees a 'do nothing' congress that is perpetually gridlocked.
 

Drifter

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Op instead of doing the Lame Right or Left. maybe do a poll that lists what people might want and let people choose what they want. You will find a lot of people want to be in the Middle. Some Right some left.
I agree we should find out more about what people really want, but before we can have any kind of meaningful polls we have to overcome a few major obstacles. One I mentioned above: our tendency to emphasize opinion over rationality.

Another problem is our lack of reliable information. For decades now we have bragged about living in "the age of information", and this is true in the sense that everyone has access to near limitless data, but for every pound of valid information in that dung-heap of data there is a ton of bullshit. We need to establish a trusted source that can examine every issue by relying on properly vetted information, and then presenting the facts, as best we can determine them, to the public in more of a documentary style than debate.

I also agree that we should "let people choose what they want", but this choice comes with some serious requirements best described as moral obligations.
  • We need to understand that, if you're human, you're biased. It takes a lot of discipline to overcome the natural, confirmation bias we all feel when gathering information. We have an obligation to view pertinent information on every issue, and to be as neutral as possible in doing that.
  • The "choice" will be the result of collective, individual opinions, but, after voting, it must be accepted and supported as the option selected by the majority, even if you had opposed it.
  • Whatever option was chosen will be taken as a morally binding referendum on the part of our lawmakers, and they will work to write it into law within the constraints of the constitution.
 

MrGnome

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I don't believe keeping someone in jail for life is less expensive than giving them the death penalty. When you consider boarding them, feeding them, etc. If their dead they wouldn't need any these needs anymore thus cutting the cost. I believe in the death penalty especially for serial killers. Life for child molesters and castration. It makes me sick to my stomach that child molester sometimes only gets 1-2 years in jail but a non violent pot user can get 10 plus years! I find it odd they let pedophiles off so easy. Hmmm well just maybe that's because half of congress and judges are pedophiles, so they made it short sentence, if they were to get caught.

Actually I believe more in the old saying, "an eye for an eye". I believe the person should be punished exactly the way they killed their victims. Say they cut someones tounge out, well you guessed they get their tongue cut out. Now that's sweet justice!
 

SnowPrincessSophie

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I don't believe keeping someone in jail for life is less expensive than giving them the death penalty. When you consider boarding them, feeding them, etc. If their dead they wouldn't need any these needs anymore thus cutting the cost. I believe in the death penalty especially for serial killers. Life for child molesters and castration. It makes me sick to my stomach that child molester sometimes only gets 1-2 years in jail but a non violent pot user can get 10 plus years! I find it odd they let pedophiles off so easy. Hmmm well just maybe that's because half of congress and judges are pedophiles, so they made it short sentence, if they were to get caught.

Actually I believe more in the old saying, "an eye for an eye". I believe the person should be punished exactly the way they killed their victims. Say they cut someones tounge out, well you guessed they get their tongue cut out. Now that's sweet justice!
Nah, I think we should just do what Norway does and prepare inmates for re entering society and rehabilitating them. Measly 20% recidivism rate compared to our near 80% suggests Norway is on to something.
 

MrGnome

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Nah, I think we should just do what Norway does and prepare inmates for re entering society and rehabilitating them. Measly 20% recidivism rate compared to our near 80% suggests Norway is on to something.
Yes for drug addicts and non violent crimes I think that works. But sorry I don't believe a serial killer or pedophile can be rehabilitated nor do I believe they should not pay back what they did.
 
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SnowPrincessSophie

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Yes for drug addicts and non violent crimes I think that works. But sorry I don't believe a serial killer or pedophile can be rehabilitated nor do I believe they should not pay back what they did.
They pay back by losing their freedom. If you don't believe violent criminals can be rehabilitated, then you must not have seen it tried. I urge you to view the documentary on Halden, the most humane prison in the world, if you're still not convinced it's possible, then I don't know what to tell you other than an eye for an eye makes everyone blind.

Edit: if you treat people like animals, they're going to behave like animals. Even violent criminals, the problem is the want to see them punitively punished is purely from an emotional viewpoint, not a logical or rational one. They can't be rehabilitated because the system doesn't even try. Instead people come out far worse than when they came in, and guess where they go after that? RIGHT BACK IN. I understand it's hard to hold back emotional thinking, but logically it could lead to far less crime and recidivism if we treat these people, not like animals or bad people, but humans beings who made bad choices, and then teach them how to make better choices. We can give them the electric chair or lethal injections or lock them in solitary and make them suffer all we want, BUT it's not going to bring back their victims.
 
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