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Thread: Sex while intoxicated

  1. #1

    Default Sex while intoxicated

    This started as a derailed thread in another post, my feeling is that there are some definite points that were going back and forth that should be clarified.

    Geno had the last post in the thread, yet laid down blanket statements that I feel should be responded to.

    To quote one of his posts: "Someone that is intoxicated cannot give consent. Period."

    I then pointed out that there are thousands of possible acts that a person can be found legally responsible for performing while intoxicated, among them DUI, and this was the only point responded to, calling my reasoning false analogy. The point I was trying to make is that even though intoxicated, an act can be performed with another person in which both parties give willful consent and you can be held legally responsible.

    Another quote was: "What is being argued in this thread on the opposition side is if a man gets "consent" out of an incoherent, intoxicated women, he has absolutely committed no crime by having sex with her any way he pleases while sober. It would be a rather strenuous exercise if they're both drunk in a legal case."

    Here is not the point I am arguing, but it is what Geno sees in my words. The argument I am trying to make is not one of a person who is intoxicated to the point of being incoherent--at that point, consent cannot be construed because a response regarding whether or not a party is giving consent to intercourse cannot be determined. The same goes for the situation where one party is so drunk they are passed out--consent cannot be given while unconscious. One other huge thing that bothers me with most of these threads is that the arguments always center around a man who takes advantage of a woman.

    Now, pointing back to the website California “Date Rape” Laws, Explained by Criminal Defense Lawyers, this is a situation described--one where one party is unconscious and the other takes advantage of this state to have intercourse. Here, I agree that this is rape as the unconscious party cannot give consent.

    Last, Geno posted many links to articles regarding rape cases either ongoing or convictions rendered. I found it interesting that most of these cases center around instances where one party was unconscious and others took advantage of the unconscious state to have intercourse. Arguments for all of these cases center around the victim being unconscious or incoherent.

    Here is what my argument comes down to: If someone enters into intoxication of their own volition, followed by committing the act of sexual intercourse with another party (again of their own volition), then this is not automatically rape. There are many definitions that need to be considered here, the major one being how one defines 'intoxication'. All of the examples brought forth to argue rape are intoxication to the point of being incoherent or unconsciousness. Intoxication also includes much lower BAC levels to the point of simply having impaired judgment. Simply crying, "I had a couple drinks, I wasn't thinking right!" does not automatically constitute rape against the other party.

    Where the argument falls apart is claiming black and white states, which is completely the point I am trying to make (and thank you CutePrincess for realizing that). Stating "Someone that is intoxicated cannot give consent," implies black and white constraints while there is plenty of gray to look at.

    Did maybe you mean to say, "Someone that is intoxicated to the point of being incoherent or unconscious cannot give consent"?

  2. #2

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    As an individual, your mother's advice still stands as the best path to not getting yourself entangled in an ugly situation. The advice applies regardless of gender.

    1. Drinking is bad for you.

    2. Nothing good happens after midnight.

    3. Keep your pants zipped up unless and until you are married.

    Not popular I'm sure, in these days of laissez-faire morality, and not always easy, but true nonetheless.

    Once you've blown past those three things, it seems a little disingenuous to start looking for someone to blame.

  3. #3

    Smile



    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogRTO View Post
    Here is what my argument comes down to: If someone enters into intoxication of their own volition, followed by committing the act of sexual intercourse with another party (again of their own volition), then this is not automatically rape.
    I think that's pretty obvious.



    Quote Originally Posted by AnalogRTO View Post
    Simply crying, "I had a couple drinks, I wasn't thinking right!" does not automatically constitute rape against the other party.
    Of course. But a certain poster's argument that "if the woman is drunk, it is not rape" is just as nonsensical.

    As you say, it's this appeal to simple black-and-white extremes that some found quite offensive.

    Saying that anyone who has a sip of an alcoholic drink is no longer responsible for their actions is ridiculous. Just as it's ridiculous to say that a predator is not responsible for his/her actions if the victim is drunk.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    As an individual, your mother's advice still stands as the best path to not getting yourself entangled in an ugly situation. The advice applies regardless of gender.

    1. Drinking is bad for you.

    2. Nothing good happens after midnight.

    3. Keep your pants zipped up unless and until you are married.

    Not popular I'm sure, in these days of laissez-faire morality, and not always easy, but true nonetheless.

    Once you've blown past those three things, it seems a little disingenuous to start looking for someone to blame.

    1) Drinking in small amounts daily has been proven to be good for your cardiovascular health and in preventing strokes and infarcts. Getting so drunk you aren't sure which side is up is bad for you as is getting drunk systematically.

    2) I can't argue with that.

    3) Considering this is a modern age in which we don't face the same issues that we did in the past back when this was problematic I'd say this is no longer a valid argument. Namely before there was a great risk of getting an STI or pregnant every time you indulged in intercourse with another person. Nowadays we have condoms and such a wide array of birth control that the chances are diminished quite intensely provided that you are a) educated enough to know your options b) responsible enough to seek them out and c) not combining sex with the other two in which case you are more likely to risk the side effects.
    Not really a laisse-faire morality in my opinion.

  5. #5

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    [QUOTE=JubeyKitty;1005584]

    1) Drinking in small amounts daily has been proven to be good for your cardiovascular health and in preventing strokes and infarcts. Getting so drunk you aren't sure which side is up is bad for you as is getting drunk systematically.
    Showing a correlation by analysis of metadata is not proof. Unless you can show the mechanism by which alcohol does this, its just a correlation, not a cause. Even if it is proved, there are any number of studies that suggest ill effects for alcohol. Its a tradeoff. Less risk to the arteries, more risk to other organs. That said, I'll stipulate that having a beer here and there isn't a big deal.



    3) Considering this is a modern age in which we don't face the same issues that we did in the past back when this was problematic I'd say this is no longer a valid argument. Namely before there was a great risk of getting an STI or pregnant every time you indulged in intercourse with another person. Nowadays we have condoms and such a wide array of birth control that the chances are diminished quite intensely provided that you are a) educated enough to know your options b) responsible enough to seek them out and c) not combining sex with the other two in which case you are more likely to risk the side effects.
    Not really a laisse-faire morality in my opinion.
    Yes, these things reduce the risks you mention. Keeping your pants on eliminates them. If you're a guy, none of the things you mention reduce the risk of a rape accusation if you have a habit of parking your car in a variety of garages to which you don't hold title. Nor do they reduce the risk of sudden death or injury if your wife or her husband or boyfriend/girlfriend finds out. Modern problems aren't THAT different from those 100 or even 1000 years ago.

    For every STD we've cured, it seems another pops up. Even the old favorites are making an antibiotic-resistant comeback.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    1. Drinking is bad for you.
    Having one isn't going to have that much of an effect, sure after a couple it gets more problematic especially if you do it regularly but one drink is usually without repercussions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    2. Nothing good happens after midnight.
    Nothing good happens after 3 am, midnight and you still have a few hours for some real fun to happen but perhaps it depends on what you're doing and who your with.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    3. Keep your pants zipped up unless and until you are married.
    Why? Marriage is a social construct that humans invented, we survived before it so we can survive without it. Perhaps it can cause problems but there are people in long term relationships that may never want to get married yet function almost exactly like a married couple. Why should a piece of paper affect whether you have sex or not?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamakitten View Post
    Marriage is a social construct that humans invented, we survived before it so we can survive without it. Perhaps it can cause problems but there are people in long term relationships that may never want to get married yet function almost exactly like a married couple. Why should a piece of paper affect whether you have sex or not?
    Its a free country. Have at it. "Your mom" is also free to say I told you so when it doesn't work out.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Its a free country. Have at it. "Your mom" is also free to say I told you so when it doesn't work out.
    Do marriages have a 100% success rate then?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by pajamakitten View Post
    Do marriages have a 100% success rate then?
    No, of course not. But (staying in the same zip code as the topic) its not very likely that you're going to get charged with rape or pick up an STD when you only have sex with your wife.

    I should add that just because people fail, that doesn't mean the concept is wrong.

  10. #10

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    Maxx, your nonsense is derailing the thread. Your personal beliefs on what people should and should not do have nothing to do with the debate at hand. The fact you think people shouldn't drink or have sex before marriage has nothing to do with whether people who are drunk can consent to sex.

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