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Thread: Debate about Christianity

  1. #1

    Default Debate about Christianity

    People, Christians and non Christians a like. Hear Words of God.

    Titus 2:11-14 says verse 11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for the blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who GAVE himself for us that he might redeem us from ALL iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    God means that Jesus came and bought you for a price, so that Jesus died the death that we all deserve. To Christians and non Christians, he payed it so we WOULDN'T have too.

    So if you take your own life, I'm not your keeper, but God is. Your body is not yours to take, for your body lives under the blood that was shed for it. Glory be to our savior Lord Jesus Christ.

    Mod Note: Please keep debates regarding suicide to the suicide thread: https://www.adisc.org/forum/mature-t...suicide-9.html. Use this thread for debating the parts of the post related to Christianity.
    Last edited by HogansHeroes; 05-Aug-2012 at 07:25. Reason: adding mod note

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    People, Christians and non Christians a like. Hear Words of God.

    So if you take your own life, I'm not your keeper, but God is. Your body is not yours to take, for your body lives under the blood that was shed for it. Glory be to our savior Lord Jesus Christ.
    Most non-Christians won't believe that there is a god, so quoting supernatural beliefs aren't likely to be in the slightest bit persuasive.

    And why would a good god insist that he owns all rights to your body? If he wants to make you suffer so unbearably that death would be preferable, he must be a pretty malicious and evil deity. It seems like he just wants to torture us for his own amusement!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    Most non-Christians won't believe that there is a god, so quoting supernatural beliefs aren't likely to be in the slightest bit persuasive.

    And why would a good god insist that he owns all rights to your body? If he wants to make you suffer so unbearably that death would be preferable, he must be a pretty malicious and evil deity. It seems like he just wants to torture us for his own amusement!
    tiny, John 3:16 Jesus speaking, says "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    You ask why does He insist that He owns our bodies?

    In Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. He created us out of His love.

    You ask If he wants to make you suffer so unbearably that death would be preferable he must be evil? Not so.

    It says in Eden, it wasn't just Satan that tempted man, it was man that trusted in a lie for powers that man could be as gods, and that lust for power that led man into sin, and therefore separated man from God.

    God is just, and although it looks like He punishes us without cause. Remember it is man throughout the Bible that has ran from Him, just as today people sin against God willingly, and because He is just, He must punish those that don't trust in His will. Not trusting in His love for us will always lead to our inevitable punishment. But loving Him and trusting in Him will bring us everlasting life.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    tiny, John 3:16 Jesus speaking, says "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Why did he have to give up his son? The Bible has many, many unanswerable questions that make absolutely zero sense.

    Also, what kind of God has to cast sinners to Hell? He's God. What stops him from doing a number of things? Forgiving, for one, as he preaches us to do in his Holy book. Of course, I know you're going to claim that the man must pray to God and accept him, but why? How is that going to stop God from doing what he preaches us to do and forgive? Or, why can't God simply abolish all sin? Again, he's God, he can do anything. For Satan to get so powerful seems kind of contradictory to the whole "God can do anything," thing. The Bible is in no way a source of anything that will ever happen in life and has ever happened.

    What proof is there of a God? The only thing anyone who believes in God has is a book that states there is a God. But then again, it's suppose to, it's catering specifically to those people who believe such a thing. Why do they believe it? Because the book who caters to them says that it's correct. What stops other religions from being correct? In fact, what stops my belief that there is no God from being correct? There's just as much proof on all sides, except the belief that there is no God holds water when it comes to logic and science. Science has disproven the 6,000 years thing. Science has discovered bones of creatures that have lived much longer than 6,000 years ago. If science can just so easily prove that the book is incorrect in that department, what water does the book have anymore? It's supposed to be absolutely correct, but it's been proven that that is simply not true. What other parts of the Bible are wrong, I wonder?

    Food for thought.

    Also, don't go around preaching your beliefs like that. It does a number of things, including cause problems and cause other people to look down on you. Say what you believe, but do not dare go around and act like other people should believe it as well.


    As I've said earlier, (I think I have?) I've stated that I see no real problem in suicide. I've considered it many times, but life is generally a waiting game, and sometimes that's all you can do. It gets better. When the pain becomes too much to bear, people tend to commit suicide, and I can understand.

  5. #5

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    I see that the subject has change to God and the suicide question. First of all, if you talking about suicide for a person that don’t believe in god, or that a Christian, this is useless.

    But even if the I believed in god, I would not think that anybody would deserve burn in hell, for all eternity, for any reason, I mean, even if you kill somebody I would think that is humane, torture somebody for ALL ETERNITY, let’s remember the eternity never its end.

    I mean, even about Hitler, I would say “Ok, he deserve to be burn him for 10 years, to punish him.” Then one day I would say “Ok, it’s enough, he already suffer the enough”.

    But talking about suicide and the god view.. I really don’t think how a GOOD god would be punish you, because you kill yourself… I mean, the people that commit suicide usually does this because they are VERY MUCH unhappy, and that life for them became too painless, and they are not able to keep living.

    But then, the GREATH GOD, instead be comprehensive, and say “Ok, let’s comforter they”, instead this, god just say “Let’s burn they, for all eternity, because they were unhappy and kill themselfes”
    Last edited by drwho; 05-Aug-2012 at 06:03.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    tiny, John 3:16 Jesus speaking, says "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    You ask why does He insist that He owns our bodies?
    I don't believe in gods or prophets, so I can't accept a quote from the Bible as anything other than a fictional story. But I do wonder why God is so possessive and "wants our bodies" (weird!!!) if he can create and do anything he wants. Hasn't he got enough toys?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    In Genesis 2:7 God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. He created us out of His love.

    You ask If he wants to make you suffer so unbearably that death would be preferable he must be evil? Not so.

    It says in Eden, it wasn't just Satan that tempted man, it was man that trusted in a lie for powers that man could be as gods, and that lust for power that led man into sin, and therefore separated man from God.

    God is just, and although it looks like He punishes us without cause. Remember it is man throughout the Bible that has ran from Him, just as today people sin against God willingly, and because He is just, He must punish those that don't trust in His will. Not trusting in His love for us will always lead to our inevitable punishment. But loving Him and trusting in Him will bring us everlasting life.
    So... let me get this straight. Your god wants to blame ME for everything that mankind has done?! I don't know the guy! I've never seen or heard from him. How could I have run from him when I was never near him in the first place? And, having given me a rational brain to understand cause-and-effect, he abandons us in the world and expects us to ignore all of our abilities and believe in something we know doesn't make rational sense otherwise he will punish us?! You're not convincing me that he isn't evil...

    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

  7. #7

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    God is just, and although it looks like He punishes us without cause. Remember it is man throughout the Bible that has ran from Him, just as today people sin against God willingly, and because He is just, He must punish those that don't trust in His will. Not trusting in His love for us will always lead to our inevitable punishment. But loving Him and trusting in Him will bring us everlasting life.

    So let’s see if I understood what you said, don't matter if, for example, you was a good person that helped the poor, and was good human being, a kind human being, that really helped a lot of people. Like Bill Gates that is an atheist, and gave billions for charity, and have a foundation to combat world hunger, other problems.

    Your GOOD GOD values more you believe in him, that yours acts. I mean, between a rapist that “regrets in the last second of his life”, for had committed many rapes, and a people that don’t believe in god, the rapist will go to HEAVEN with GOD… And the Atheist will be sending to BURN IN HELL, for all eternity.. And you say that your GOD love those people that he are send to burning in hell, because they don't believed in him?

    Let me make a question Kaetorian, if you had a son, and this son was a very good person, and you loved him, but he don’t believed in something that you said, for example, you made some incredible claim, that you are ate not able to prove.

    Did you would consider lock him in the basement and torture him for all the rest of his life? You would do this? Did you would torture your LOVING son, JUST BECAUSE he don’t believe in something that you said?

    If you really love somebody, you would never would torture they, so don’t tell this BULLSHIT “Good loves you….. But he has to punish you, because you don’t belive in him!”

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am not a god, but I would NEVER torture anybody, just because they don't belive in something that I told them. And by the way, no country in the whole world, (or the least no DEMOCRATIC country) in the whole world TORTURE peoples because they don't "belive in something that somebody say".

    The god in the Bible is not better then Adolf Hitler, or Joseph Stalin, or Mao-Tse Tung, it's just one more dictator, some evil creature, full of darkness and wickedness. This "God", as any dicator, made the rules and he will torture and murder who don't follow him, just like Hitler dod, just like Mussolini or any other dictator, other "supreme leader" did.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by KuroCat View Post
    Why did he have to give up his son? The Bible has many, many unanswerable questions that make absolutely zero sense.

    Also, what kind of God has to cast sinners to Hell? He's God. What stops him from doing a number of things? Forgiving, for one, as he preaches us to do in his Holy book. Of course, I know you're going to claim that the man must pray to God and accept him, but why? How is that going to stop God from doing what he preaches us to do and forgive? Or, why can't God simply abolish all sin? Again, he's God, he can do anything. For Satan to get so powerful seems kind of contradictory to the whole "God can do anything," thing. The Bible is in no way a source of anything that will ever happen in life and has ever happened.

    What proof is there of a God? The only thing anyone who believes in God has is a book that states there is a God. But then again, it's suppose to, it's catering specifically to those people who believe such a thing. Why do they believe it? Because the book who caters to them says that it's correct. What stops other religions from being correct? In fact, what stops my belief that there is no God from being correct? There's just as much proof on all sides, except the belief that there is no God holds water when it comes to logic and science. Science has disproven the 6,000 years thing. Science has discovered bones of creatures that have lived much longer than 6,000 years ago. If science can just so easily prove that the book is incorrect in that department, what water does the book have anymore? It's supposed to be absolutely correct, but it's been proven that that is simply not true. What other parts of the Bible are wrong, I wonder?

    Food for thought.

    Also, don't go around preaching your beliefs like that. It does a number of things, including cause problems and cause other people to look down on you. Say what you believe, but do not dare go around and act like other people should believe it as well.


    As I've said earlier, (I think I have?) I've stated that I see no real problem in suicide. I've considered it many times, but life is generally a waiting game, and sometimes that's all you can do. It gets better. When the pain becomes too much to bear, people tend to commit suicide, and I can understand.
    I am going to do separate post for 3 people has come with questions and it's confusing me. So KuroCat first.Ok, I have to answer these questions, because the Word can answer them all.

    John 3:16 Jesus speaking, says "For God so love the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    You ask: Why did God have to give His son?

    Jesus died on the cross to take God's wrath for the world, so that we wouldn't have too. To me, that shows God's love and compassion.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

    You asked: Also, what kind of God has to cast sinners to Hell?*

    Because He is just. If man runs from God, (man willfully has the option to sin and rebel), he will find sin and suffering. Satan then comes into the picture when this happens and claims you because man in his sin becomes more and more evil and he will actually seek that which is unrighteous.

    NOW, here is where most Christians in the church don't tell there members. Therefore unbelievers don't listen as well.

    God chastens His children. He will talk to you first with His Word, if that doesn't work, after a while of man not listening to what is being said, God will spank His children.

    Throughout the whole Bible, Israel is always in sin, running head over hills away from God. So what does He do? Puts them under the house of bondage to what ever the enemy is at that time. He did this to teach them that being in rebellion will separate you from me and deliver you into the house of bondage which is sin.

    But, don't get me wrong, because He loved his people enough, He would ellect one person to deliver them from that rebellion, and Israel would be free, and they would return to God. But, after a while of spanking, and man's will still seems to go off of that which is God, He... Will... Slay you... That is spiritual death.

    Hebrew 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    So, that is why people go to Hell. Because He is just. Those that seek Him, He will bless. Those that rebel against Him, will be warned countless times, but if he doesn't learn will die in there sin, because they didn't seek forgiveness from the Lord.

    Romans. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."

    You asked: He's God. What stops him from doing a number of things?

    Love. God gives you His son freely. Because Jesus came as a man, he knows our struggles but by grace he took your struggles to the cross. So he has become the mediator between man and God. If you ask for forgiveness, then He forgives you under his blood.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    You ask: Why did God have to give His son?

    Jesus died on the cross to take God's wrath for the world, so that we wouldn't have too.
    But why did a man have to be executed 2000-ish years ago so that when I stray from God I'm not punished eternally but forgiven? It would make just as much sense if God sent a jelly trifle 2000-years into the future to ensure that I wouldn't be punished for putting my pants on backwards.

    And why is God so wrathful towards everything he created anyway? It makes no sense!



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    You asked: He's God. What stops him from doing a number of things?

    Love. God gives you His son freely. Because Jesus came as a man, he knows our struggles but by grace he took your struggles to the cross. So he has become the mediator between man and God. If you ask for forgiveness, then He forgives you under his blood.
    How did he take my struggles to the cross? Did he travel into the future, surgically remove them from me, and take them back and embed them inside of his own blood (or other bodily fluids) so that the God can be deceived into thinking that he is guilty for my sins and not hold me responsible? How can God be deceived like that?

    And if my struggles went to the cross (how does an abstract concept travel through space and time, again?), why do I still appear to have them now?

    If God is just, why is Jesus a scapegoat for everyone's sins?

    And what gives God the right to "give his son freely" and inflict unimaginable suffering unto him? It sounds so cruel.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    Jesus died on the cross to take God's wrath for the world, so that we wouldn't have too. To me, that shows God's love and compassion.
    In one sentence you characterize your god as wrathful and as loving and compassionate? What kind of loving and compassionate being requires human sacrifice- his son no less- to temper his wrath?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    You asked: Also, what kind of God has to cast sinners to Hell?*

    Because He is just. If man runs from God, (man willfully has the option to sin and rebel), he will find sin and suffering. Satan then comes into the picture when this happens and claims you because man in his sin becomes more and more evil and he will actually seek that which is unrighteous.
    How do you account for atheists and non-Christian theists who are quite happy and content with their lives despite not being under God? My life as a Christian was filled with self-hate and depression, which in turn dragged down my performance in school (for which I'm still paying) and my relationships. Since I became a practicing UU Wiccan, I've nearly earned an advanced degree which should double my earning potential. My relationships are much happier, and I'm more accepting of who I am and those around me. Those are quite a few data points. Meanwhile, the bible is a source completely without any sort of independent verification. So...

    When I followed a book with no independent verification, or reason to believe it's accurate beyond the fact it says that it is accurate: unhappiness and mirth
    Wiccan, with denial of the presence of your notions of God, Satan, Heaven, and Hell: happiness, fulfillment, love, acceptance, career success

    If this is just Satan leading me astray from God, he's making quite a fantastic case.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    NOW, here is where most Christians in the church don't tell there members. Therefore unbelievers don't listen as well.

    God chastens His children. He will talk to you first with His Word, if that doesn't work, after a while of man not listening to what is being said, God will spank His children.

    Throughout the whole Bible, Israel is always in sin, running head over hills away from God. So what does He do? Puts them under the house of bondage to what ever the enemy is at that time. He did this to teach them that being in rebellion will separate you from me and deliver you into the house of bondage which is sin.
    Again, my life has gotten markedly better since I stopped ascribing to your notion of God. When is this spanking going to come? Since I made that change, things in my life have gone from shit to roses.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    But, don't get me wrong, because He loved his people enough, He would ellect one person to deliver them from that rebellion, and Israel would be free, and they would return to God. But, after a while of spanking, and man's will still seems to go off of that which is God, He... Will... Slay you... That is spiritual death.

    Hebrew 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
    Do you have any source that can confirm this independent of biblical scripture?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    So, that is why people go to Hell. Because He is just. Those that seek Him, He will bless. Those that rebel against Him, will be warned countless times, but if he doesn't learn will die in there sin, because they didn't seek forgiveness from the Lord.
    Again, the fact that my life has gotten markedly better since "rebelling" against him seems to indicate that at the very least, this is not universal.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    Romans. 1:18, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness."
    Let's bring back this "righteous" point again. Just about every dictionary I've consulted gives various forms of two definitions of the word. The first is without sin. Considering that you are not without sin, that would make you unrighteous (by that definition). The other is, essential, being moral. This would make the definition of righteous subjective to the system of morals one follows. You're casting a logical circle. There are lots of religions out there, and each one has its own moral code. There will be some overlap (don't steal seems rather universal), but ultimately, no two are the same. Why am I to believe yours is the accurate account of the will of the divine?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    You asked: He's God. What stops him from doing a number of things?

    Love. God gives you His son freely. Because Jesus came as a man, he knows our struggles but by grace he took your struggles to the cross. So he has become the mediator between man and God. If you ask for forgiveness, then He forgives you under his blood.
    If God is loving, then why did he have wrath so great that the sacrifice of his son was necessary to quell it?



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaetorian View Post
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    I won't challenge this, but I'd like to point back to my previous point. Your religion's path to salvation is acceptance of the messiah. When I'm choosing which religion to follow, why should I choose that one over the one where salvation (or equivalent) is determined by merit and the quality of one's deeds? Do you pretend that a god is just if that god would condemn a loving, charitable person to Hell because he never accepted Jesus as messiah?
    Last edited by HogansHeroes; 05-Aug-2012 at 07:39. Reason: removing automerged double post

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