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Thread: Thoughts on Iraq and Afghanistan

  1. #1

    Default Thoughts on Iraq and Afghanistan

    What does everyone think of the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you think it was justified for the U.S.A to invade either country? Why or why not? If so, have these efforts been fruitful or not? And what should happen in the future?

    I, personally, am still unsure what the official reason for this was. Of course, I've heard the rhetoric about WMD's in the case of Iraq, which turned out to be false. I've also heard of "Spreading Freedom and Democracy" to Iraq. I can see a justification in disarming a state known to have WMD's and has shown significant risk of using them, but I find absolutely no justification in "Spreading Democracy" of course, we also have the more cynical theory, that the entire invasion was motivated by oil and profit.

    Looking forward to seeing what everyone thinks about this, I think I can safely say that most people on this forum have been bombarded with news of these conflicts since 2003, I'm sure we all have some sort of feeling on this.

  2. #2

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    I do think _something_ had to be done, but the approach that was taken was completely pointless. There was no long term vision.. no exit plan (beyond just "we're outa here..").. and more importantly the change required is more of a social one than a military one. You can't force a people (easily) to adopt your political views. They have to do that on their own.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoundCoder View Post
    I do think _something_ had to be done, but the approach that was taken was completely pointless. There was no long term vision.. no exit plan (beyond just "we're outa here..").. and more importantly the change required is more of a social one than a military one. You can't force a people (easily) to adopt your political views. They have to do that on their own.
    More to that point, is it even justified to expect a people to adopt your political views? What had to be done there, and why was it the responsibility of anyone other than the countries themselves? I totally agree with you that the approach taken leaves much to be desired. You'd expect better from educated "leaders" wouldn't you?

  4. #4

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    Political views, no, I don't think this is justified.

    However there are basic human rights that I do think it is justified to step in when they are being denied, almost to a point where it's wrong for other countries to know whats happening and take a "meh, their problem" stance.

    Obviously what constitutes a basic human right is highly up to debate. The UN is _supposed_ to decide and act on those kinda things.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BoundCoder View Post
    However there are basic human rights that I do think it is justified to step in when they are being denied
    Again, you're pushing your belief system onto someone else through force. Just because you think something is a basic right does not mean it is or someone else doesn't consider it to be.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverPup View Post
    Again, you're pushing your belief system onto someone else through force. Just because you think something is a basic right does not mean it is or someone else doesn't consider it to be.
    I would say living is a basic right of humanity.

    Crimes of Saddam Hussein

    Thats not why we went in to Iraq of course and people are still getting bombed there from terrorists/insurgents, whatever. But getting Saddam out and letting them be a free nation was worth it. At least the government isn't slaughtering it's own people for whatever reason.

  7. #7

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    Well for me the situation is simple i think US goverment has wasted the lives of young citizen to die for something that they call democracy

    The problem is the justification of the war is weak and not true and what about democracy? Well you see for yourself Iraq is torn by civil war and also Afghanistan for me democracy cannot be force. I mean look at Egypt they now have elected presiden and they do it by themselves. so the term Democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan is a fake

    Oh and last thing in Libya US and NATO is helping the rebel and ultimately Ghaddafi is killed but is it peace in Libya now? No Libya is in civil war now

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by archer View Post
    Oh and last thing in Libya US and NATO is helping the rebel and ultimately Ghaddafi is killed but is it peace in Libya now? No Libya is in civil war now
    Voting now = civil war folks!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/09/wo...pagewanted=all

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...byan_civil_war


    Also not a single US citizen was killed during the conflict. All we did was arm them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...#Aid_to_rebels because without arming them it would of been horribly one-sided and the war would of been lost. Gaddafi was a idiot too not stepping down and he died for it, what a moron.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by RetrieverPup View Post
    Again, you're pushing your belief system onto someone else through force. Just because you think something is a basic right does not mean it is or someone else doesn't consider it to be.
    At a certain point that becomes necessary. It happens at all levels.. family level, community level, country level.. and the UN is supposed to make it happen at the global level. The majority decides what is right, and imposes it on everyone as required.

    In this case the UN, obstensibly representing the global community, has the universal declaration of human rights, which is basically supposed to define the core rights that anyone on the planet should have, and to which the world should impose when they don't have.

    Obviously it's not even close to that simple. Either way, sometimes inaction is as bad as action. If you come across a man raping a woman, I generally feel a person should intervene, as this violates a basic human right. This is effectively imposing ones views (yours) on another (the mans). The criminal justice system does this every day. Laws are imposed on people who may not agree with them because the majority has decided it's the right thing to do. If I see a person walking into a church, I don't feel I should intervene, because despite being against my beliefs, no basic human rights are being violated.

  10. #10

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    The wars were in violation of international law and in defiance of the UN security council, it dragged dozens of countries into what was essentially an act of world policing. It highlights the absolute hypocrisy of the US, the UK, and the rest of the western powers when it comes to being some sort of vanguard for human rights. I notice that there are multiple dictators still enacting their iron fisted rule on their people. Kim Jong-un, Al Bashir, Ahmadinejad, Mugabe, yet we shirk away from this, because it is clear that the wars are fought for strategic reasons. However, I will concede that I am not sorry that bin laden, Saddam and Gaddafi are dead, but it doesn't change the fact that the two rules illustrate the facade that our politicians are supposed champions of good in a world of evil

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