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Thread: I think I have it figured out.

  1. #1

    Default I think I have it figured out.

    People are Flawed.

    If something involves human beings (as we know them) then there will always be a margin for human error. For some things, this margin is higher, but it doesn't change that people can mess up.

    That's often the cause of most conflicts- misunderstanding. No language is perfect. If everyone would just try to understand each other instead of getting offended because of something the other said, then I believe that you'd see a sudden rise in people actually getting shit done.

    Now, I may be some 17-year-old sitting at his computer ranting about, but (in the hopes of not sounding too high-and-mighty) I'd say that I'm wiser than a whole lot of people in respect to understanding things like these.

    It's unbelievably frustrating to not be able to properly communicate an understanding of something to someone else because you're limited to spoken language, ya know?

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents. We should totally use this thread to (try to) talk about ideas like this one. I, for one, find it pretty frickin awesome when you have an epiphany and suddenly get a whole new understanding and appreciation for the world.

  2. #2

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    So what do you want us to use this thread for? Our realizations?

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smonjith View Post
    So what do you want us to use this thread for? Our realizations?
    If you want. I think that it's cool for people to share their ideas and understandings of ideas, people, etc. and why not put them here to discuss them with others?

    this could turn into a really cool thread for informational exchange.

  4. #4

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    Ok. Here is my realization: All people are born with a basic sense of right and wrong, which is not to cause harm or pain to other people. However, this sense of morality can be lost if it isn't supported, and it can be crushed out by the society around it because people accept what is going on around them as the way things should be without thinking and condemn things based on their cultural taboos without thinking. The only way for a society to progress is for it to keep re-examining the things it does in a rational way and changing itself to fit this basic morality.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smonjith View Post
    Ok. Here is my realization: All people are born with a basic sense of right and wrong, which is not to cause harm or pain to other people. However, this sense of morality can be lost if it isn't supported, and it can be crushed out by the society around it because people accept what is going on around them as the way things should be without thinking and condemn things based on their cultural taboos without thinking. The only way for a society to progress is for it to keep re-examining the things it does in a rational way and changing itself to fit this basic morality.
    that's a really good one
    i have a little quote for the situation, in fact. "we can't know where we are going without first knowing where we've been." :3

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZakRoo View Post
    that's a really good one
    i have a little quote for the situation, in fact. "we can't know where we are going without first knowing where we've been." :3
    That's a great line. I really like this one too: "Wisdom is Forethought followed by Action." I don't know where I heard that one.
    Last edited by Smonjith; 28-Sep-2011 at 15:26.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smonjith View Post
    Ok. Here is my realization: All people are born with a basic sense of right and wrong, which is not to cause harm or pain to other people. However, this sense of morality can be lost if it isn't supported, and it can be crushed out by the society around it because people accept what is going on around them as the way things should be without thinking and condemn things based on their cultural taboos without thinking. The only way for a society to progress is for it to keep re-examining the things it does in a rational way and changing itself to fit this basic morality.
    Wait. What? "Basic morality?" People are born with morality? No. Absolutely not. You look at an infant, and you see "good" and "kindness" and whatever else, but you forget: They're helpless. They have no reason not to be "good" and "incapable of harming others" because they can't not. Every single need of theirs has to be taken care of. By comparison, look at a toddler: they are only concerned with their own desires, and will stop at nothing within their means to get it. That includes causing harm or pain to others, if they find it to be effective. They have no conception of what's right or wrong, they simply have animalistic instincts to follow. This is also about when they start learning the concept of morality.

    Morality is learned. True, it must be re-enforced (or supported) lest it disappear, but it's something that MUST be learned. It is a perversion (or modification, if you will) of the survival instinct that does NOT come naturally to people. Instead of worrying about the singular or the family unit, one must be concerned with the community as a whole. All (correct) moral codes come from this basic imperative. Hell, even those cultural taboos that you condemn are part of that survival instinct: if you band people together with a common way of thinking, then the whole will be more likely to survive.

    Another thing that I don't understand is your aversion to causing pain or harm. How do you qualify pain? How do you qualify harm? Is it purely a physical thing? Is it mental? What is it? I'm going to assume that you meant it in the broadest category possible, and then I'm going to modify that claim. To cause pain, pure and simple, is immoral. To cause pain for the singular benefit of self is immoral. But there's nothing to say that to cause pain or harm for the greater good is to be immoral. Think about it: how do you housebreak a dog? Well, you watch him until you see him make a mess, then you scold him, rub his nose in it, and spank him. Why are you doing this? Is it not causing pain? Well, sure it is. But pain is an effective teacher. With enough vigilance, the beast will be broken of that habit. Same thing goes for people: cause them discomfort, and they will change. Make these changes for the benefit of the most people, and there's no problem. We do it all the time when we indoctrinate (yes, indoctrinate) our children to our morals.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukirr View Post
    Wait. What? "Basic morality?" People are born with morality? No. Absolutely not. You look at an infant, and you see "good" and "kindness" and whatever else, but you forget: They're helpless. They have no reason not to be "good" and "incapable of harming others" because they can't not. Every single need of theirs has to be taken care of. By comparison, look at a toddler: they are only concerned with their own desires, and will stop at nothing within their means to get it. That includes causing harm or pain to others, if they find it to be effective. They have no conception of what's right or wrong, they simply have animalistic instincts to follow. This is also about when they start learning the concept of morality.

    Morality is learned. True, it must be re-enforced (or supported) lest it disappear, but it's something that MUST be learned. It is a perversion (or modification, if you will) of the survival instinct that does NOT come naturally to people. Instead of worrying about the singular or the family unit, one must be concerned with the community as a whole. All (correct) moral codes come from this basic imperative. Hell, even those cultural taboos that you condemn are part of that survival instinct: if you band people together with a common way of thinking, then the whole will be more likely to survive.
    I don't literally mean being born with a moral code: what I mean is that all humans (except for socio-paths) posses a certain amount of empathy by nature, and this empathy is the basis of morality. That's what I mean. By building up empathy and compassion, we become more moral, and by tearing it down, we become less moral. And I don't mean to say that all taboos are wrong; I just mean that sometimes they get mistaken as ethical standards such as various sexual taboos. The right role of a parent in moral education is not only to teach our children a list of do's and don'ts, but to teach them the basic principle behind them, namely empathy. When Johny hits Suzy, we don't just tell him not to hit; we explain to him that it hurts her and ask him if he likes it when other people hurt him (The golden rule).

    And the wholle issue of doing harm to do good is really a question of applied ethics. To that I would say that it depends on the level of harm and if the overall good outweighs the bad. That is a very dificult question for any system of ethics, so I can't really give a specific answer on how everything factors together, but I agree that you have to weigh the results of the actions, but I don't think that you weigh with simple arithmetic.

  9. #9

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    That certain amount of empathy isn't enough. Left to his own devices, a child is no more empathetic than any other animal. Empathy, like morality, must be taught. A child must be taught to consider others' feelings, because it is not something that's conducive to the child's survival on the micro-level.

  10. #10

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    One thing, Must be taught to ALL children, regardless of one's faith
    The Golden Rule; Do unto others as you would have done unto you.
    nice, simple, and, completely forgotten in large segments of today's population
    My old boss used to call me a mensch, like it was a dirty word. After he died, I looked up the definition;
    Yiddish - Mensch - An upstanding, moral person.
    Am I perfect? no, absolutely not. I try to be moral, but, I am finding, after much experience, that one shouldn't be moral at the complete expense of self. the world is not black and white.

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