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Thread: Taxes

  1. #1

    Default Taxes

    Here's the deal, chavs, paying taxes is a civil duty of every citizen in the US (and most other countries). Now, as we all know there's a bit of a debt crisis in the US, and many other countries. The only solution that I can see that can fix this problem is people paying more taxes, most other solutions would seriously damage the infrastructure of our government. What I don't understand is why there are so many people going, "I dun want them there government taking any more of my money."
    To me it shows not only a lack of patriotism, but a lack of humanity too. The government didn't cause this crisis, people did. Who did people turn to when this happened? The government. And now the government needs the people's help financially, and the people seem to be refusing to help. This is kind of like hitting someone with your car and going "I don't need to stop, that ambulance racing to the hospital can stop and help her."

    Let's just do a simple comparison right now, a person earning 15k/year pays about 3k in taxes, a person grossing 1mil each year pays about 450k. Now I'm sure that seems like a lot, but when you think about it the person earning 1mil a year still has 45 times the spending power as the person making minimum wage. If the person making over 1million dollars were to contribute an additional 200k as taxes, he'd still have 30 times the spending power as the other person. Now there are about 9 million Americans who make 1 million or more per year, if they were all to pay an additional 200k a year, the government would be earning an extra 1.8 trillion dollars a year, which would be enough to turn the current deficit (around 1.5 trillion currently) into a 300billion dollar revenue, and even the poorest of those people would still end up being 30 times better off than people making minimum wage.

    I just don't understand how many are so unwilling to do this. It's like you're paying this person you need to help you accomplish your goals, and something goes wrong, and the guy helping you saves your ass. Then he tells you, "Saving you hurt me pretty bad, I'll need a bit extra help from you for the time being while we both get back on our feet."



    *all numbers are accurate to my knowledge. Tax brackets were done using 2008 numbers.

  2. #2

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    WARNING: The following beliefs are coming from a highly right-winged individual. To any individuals that fear that they might be offended or strongly disagree: please scroll past this post.


    You think that taxing the higher class more is going to help pay off debt? Have a look where our taxes are going:
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    54% on public welfare;

    20% on military and defense;

    18% on stuff like highways/transportation, school grants, congressmen getting paid, veteran benefits, w/e else the government pays for;

    Only 8 fucking percent on paying off the national debt.

    Just goes to show that the government doesn't give half of a shit, hell, not even 2/25 of a shit about paying off the national debt. Instead, there more concerned about giving the money to those who choose to sit at home all day and pretend to be desperate and unable to work, collect money from the government, and spend it on worthless amenities like cigarettes, beer, and other unneeded luxuries like HDTV's and 4-wheelers (Note: I'm not referring those who are truly disabled/desperate, and have no other way of obtaining money. I'm reffering to the ones who can work but won't. "Won't" and "Can't" are 2 different things). The only thing taxing the rich will do is promote a Socialist economy, which to me, is what Democrats seem to want.

    Those are my beliefs on this whole thing, which probably nobody here will agree with...

  3. #3

    Default

    ^^^ And honestly, there is no reason to get our collective panties in a twist about the debt, because there is no debt crisis. Our treasuries are still very widely desired (meaning we can still sell our debt), and our credit rating is still excellent. Our debt is something like 90 percent of annual GDP right now, but one can look at Japan, which also has no trouble selling their debt and has an excellent credit rating. Their debt is presently well over 200 percent of GDP.

    Right now, I genuinely believe that putting ANY money at the national debt is downright stupid. Instead, we need to be throwing money at this economy like it's going out of style. We have an electrical grid that's one hot day away from massive power outages ala 2003. We have bridges all across the country, including bridges on our "crown jewel" interstate highways that are crumbling or already have crumbled. We have roads that are cracked, broken, and in some cases are literally being unpaved. We lag behind practically every civilized country, and even some backward-ass third-world places in terms of public transit, access to health care, and access to broadband internet. We have plenty of projects that we need to address. Coincidentally, we have plenty of people that want jobs, and we have all kinds of good reason to do these projects, as we're already suffering economically and will continue to do so as long as we keep putting this stuff off in favor of pissing away good money on stupid wars and a military that's bloated by at least a factor of five.

    All that said, we need to raise the taxes to rates that look something like they did before one evil piece of shit decided he needed to trash the United States and its government (Ronald Reagan). Taxing rich people does not promote a "socialist" economy, but rather, promotes an economy that benefits everyone. I frankly don't understand why the rich would not want to promote a strong middle class, as without a strong middle class, they don't have a whole lot of people left to buy their products, and there's a strong correlation between a strong middle class and a strong economy (and vice versa). The greater the income disparity, the worse things get for everyone except the super mega rich-enough-to-wipe-their-ass-with-100-dollar-bills rich.

    ---------- Post added at 23:22 ---------- Previous post was at 23:20 ----------

    And honestly, the whole conversation around national debt is totally bogus. Nearly every household in America is running with some degree of debt, and most HAVE to run with some degree of debt. Most people cannot buy houses or cars without debt. That doesn't mean that they are unable to pay their bills or that they have a debt crisis.

  4. #4

    Default

    Redistribution of wealth = socialism

    While some aspects of that may look very attractive depending on your perspective. The ability to get society to a point where it could actually be functional in a democracy seems slim to none.

  5. #5

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by IantheFox View Post
    You think that taxing the higher class more is going to help pay off debt? Have a look where our taxes are going:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    54% on public welfare
    I agree that welfare needs to be revamped but that chart doesn't actually tell the whole picture (more comprehensive chart). But besides that, I don't see your point. It seems like you're saying that because the government finds the maintenance of the infrastructure of our society to be more important than just paying off the debt, that it's doing something wrong. They're paying off the interest because they don't currently have enough of a revenue to do more. I'm not saying that the government shouldn't also change its spending habits and do things that would reduce cost (aka legalize marijuana as a taxable revenue source). I'm sure if the government suddenly got enough money to pay off it's debt it would, and by taxing those who make more than 999k a year by an additional 200k/year, turn us from losing 1.5 trillion a year, to earning 400 billion each year, allowing us to comfortably pay off all our debt in about 25 years.





    Quote Originally Posted by IantheFox View Post
    The only thing taxing the rich will do is promote a Socialist economy, which to me, is what Democrats seem to want.
    Tbh, can you actually tell me something bad about a socialized economy? All the other countries with socialized economies seem to perform better than us on several different levels.

  6. #6

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by IantheFox View Post
    WARNING: The following beliefs are coming from a highly right-winged individual. To any individuals that fear that they might be offended or strongly disagree: please scroll past this post.


    You think that taxing the higher class more is going to help pay off debt? Have a look where our taxes are going:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	FY09_deception.gif 
Views:	84 
Size:	12.5 KB 
ID:	5127

    54% on public welfare;

    20% on military and defense;

    18% on stuff like highways/transportation, school grants, congressmen getting paid, veteran benefits, w/e else the government pays for;

    Only 8 fucking percent on paying off the national debt.

    Just goes to show that the government doesn't give half of a shit, hell, not even 2/25 of a shit about paying off the national debt. Instead, there more concerned about giving the money to those who choose to sit at home all day and pretend to be desperate and unable to work, collect money from the government, and spend it on worthless amenities like cigarettes, beer, and other unneeded luxuries like HDTV's and 4-wheelers (Note: I'm not referring those who are truly disabled/desperate, and have no other way of obtaining money. I'm reffering to the ones who can work but won't. "Won't" and "Can't" are 2 different things). The only thing taxing the rich will do is promote a Socialist economy, which to me, is what Democrats seem to want.

    Those are my beliefs on this whole thing, which probably nobody here will agree with...
    Couple things to point out here:

    1) 32% is Medicare and Social Security. I like how your graph didn't delineate between Medicare (12.79%) and Medicaid (8.19%) - in other words, the US is drowning in debt keeping old people alive and paying for a great many of their vacations (you'd be amazed at how few seniors actually needed the money coming in from SS, what with their pensions and retirement funds and inherited wealth...) The biggest bloat with Medicare was the big Republican sellout to AARP in 2003, Medicare Part D - the government agreeing to carte blanche pay for an incredible amount of medication to keep people who are essentially dead upright. I work in the medical industry. I see this shit daily, 60, 70, and 80-somethings on 10+ different medications to keep their failing hearts beating, to compensate for their failed pancreas(can't recall the plural here), to filter their blood because their failed livers and kidneys can no longer do so, and worse to do all this in spite of their diminished mental capacity due to strokes and dementia.

    Why does all this happen? Because medical organizations are greedy and family members are selfish. Mama (or grandma) drooling out of the side of her mouth in the nursing home where we only have to look at her once in a while is better than her being dead and we have to face the guilt of not being there for her.

    Oh - there is a 2...

    2) No money is currently being designated for "paying off" the debt - there is only money earmarked for paying the interest on the debt. Please, please do not fool yourself on this matter. Even when we were running a "surplus" (during the Clinton years), we were not "paying down" the debt. That surplus was Reagan's doing - he slashed cap gains taxes, and financed those cuts by increasing SS taxes, which created a vehicle by which the USG could borrow from "itself" without exposing itself to excessive foreign debt. The Clinton/GOP congressional budgets featured a vastly higher SS intake than payout, and the CBO was more than happy to call that a "surplus", even though they were borrowing most of it from the SS "trust fund" to mask the real budget deficit that continued to happen behind the scenes.

  7. #7

    Default

    I wonder what our debt would be like if we never had the Bush tax reductions, and hadn't invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? I wonder how our employment situation would be if our own industries hadn't sought slave labor in China to have their crap made?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    I wonder what our debt would be like if we never had the Bush tax reductions, and hadn't invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? I wonder how our employment situation would be if our own industries hadn't sought slave labor in China to have their crap made?
    Better question:

    What would our debt be like if Reagan hadn't pulled the big bait-and-switch (cutting taxes on the rich and dramatically increasing them on the middle class via the SS payroll tax)? How would our employment situation be if Bush I hadn't promoted and Clinton hadn't signed NAFTA?

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewbacca View Post
    Tbh, can you actually tell me something bad about a socialized economy? All the other countries with socialized economies seem to perform better than us on several different levels.
    You don't know how long I've been waiting for someone to ask this question. I'll tell you all the problems with it:

    So, in a socialist society, the government regulates how much each citizen gets paid. Essentially, everybody makes the same set salary of say, $40k a year, roughly. And that means everyone: the doctors, lawyers, construction workers, plumbers, bike shop owners, you name it: they all make $40k a year. Obviously, to have a high paying job like a doctor or lawyer, you have to go to school for many years, spend tons of money on tuition, spend years of your life working hard to get that education, all just to have that high-paying job. Where if you were a bike shop owner, you hardly require any education at all.

    So let me ask this: where is the incentive in going to school to become a doctor, lawyer, or any other occupation that gives a high paycheck, when you can save all of those years of your life, all that tuition money, and all that misery, when you can just become a bike shop owner instead? You'd be making $40k each year either way, why not go the easy route? Eventually, everyone will think this, and there will be no more doctors, lawyers, or w/e. Then the gov't will have to step in and start interfering with citizens' lives and assign jobs to people. Before you know it, it's a communist dictatorship. Just look at the USSR under the rule of Stalin.

    Familiar with the documents known as the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution? Those were written for a reason. Why? Because we are the United States of America, not the United Socialist Soviet States of America. I would prefer that the government stay the fuck out of my paycheck. While I'm at it, I'll also state why I believe that Income Tax is complete and total bullshit:

    Paying taxes on stuff like automobiles, gas, food items, etc. makes sense. Why? When you own a car, you drive it on the road that the gov't built, owns, and paid for. and put emissions in the air. When you buy food items, such as bags of chips, or bottles of soda, you dispose of the remains (plastic bags, bottles) which go to government owned landfills, plus the gov't also pays for the trash guys to pick it up once a week in your driveway. With Income Tax, however, you're paying for earning more. And the harder you work, the more you have to pay.- Wait, what? So if you're a doctor, and you make more money, you have to give the gov't even more of your salary, yet at the same time, your serving the people.

    That's why income tax is bullshit. You are paying to serve. Income tax emerged in WWI intending to be a way for the gov't to make quicker money to pay for war supplies. It was a policy like rationalization ("you may buy only x much meat") and job assignment (car factories start making war vehicles, clothes companies start making military gear such as helmets and such, etc), effected and unfairly invaded citizens way of life, yet was beneficial in the time of war. And somehow, while everything else went back to normal when the war was over, Income Tax stuck. There are ways to eliminate Income Tax fairly and easily, but what it would involve doing would not get a kind reception from the citizens of the US, especially Democrats. Democrats want everyone to live as a middle class citizen, and it really just doesn't work that way.

    -Ian


    TL;DR: If you actually skipped to the bottom of this post hoping to find an actual TL;DR, please go back to the top, grab a beer, and take just a small bit of time out of your life to read my post, you lazy son of a bitch. Thanks, and have a nice day.

  10. #10
    AmbezeSubHealth

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    Quote Originally Posted by IantheFox View Post
    You don't know how long I've been waiting for someone to ask this question. I'll tell you all the problems with it:

    So, in a socialist society, the government regulates how much each citizen gets paid.[/I]
    With how much the government manipulates markets and how often those markets fail one would fail to see the positive in the government manipulating more markets. Easy way to save your investments. Watch your investments for the governments hand in them. If you see the Federal government with a hand in a market or business you are invested in sell that investment.

    The housing market and the college market are two great examples of failed government market manipulation. One great way for the government to cut spending is for the government to stop spending money on market manipulation of which the government has proven itself consistently to be a failure at.

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