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Thread: Something very interesting... read carefully!

  1. #1

    Default Something very interesting... read carefully!

    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

    Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country. Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    So the question for voting-age Americans is: Where do you want your country to go from here? Back toward freedom and liberty or toward dependency and eventually bondage? You get to put in your answer in 2012!

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJessi View Post
    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough,
    You spelled Edinburgh wrong....



    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJessi View Post
    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

    Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1
    hmm.... 19+29=48
    here's a tip: if someone can't add up the number of States in the Union and get 50, then their analysis has some fundamental problems
    In actual fact Barack Obama won 28 states, plus DC, plus one delegate from Nebraska, and John McCain won 22 states.

    Now did you write this post yourself, or are you quoting it from somewhere?
    -----
    It has been established that the OP was not written by the BabyJessi
    details of it's origins can be found here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/ballot/athenian.asp

    Further criticism of him seems to me to be superfluous....
    Last edited by MsClara; 13-Jun-2011 at 23:21.

  3. #3

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    I fail to see the significance of the "space won" - the fact that McCain won states with lower population density doesn't change the fact that Obama got over 9 millions votes than him...


    Sent from my iPhone

  4. #4

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    Wow this post is really just a personal attack/rant on a system you dont like. Im not american so maybe its not my place to judge or whatever. But out of intrest where did you get these facts from ? I did some basic fact checking through wikipeida United States presidential election, 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and the source's that wikipedia provide and it seems most things stated here are blatantly false.

    Im not sure what you where trying to achieve with this post, but if you are looking to share your views and change peoples opinions this is not that way.

  5. #5

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    If America takes a swing towards tea party-like politics or libertarianism.. it will be desastrous, for America.. not for us, the rest of the world will be better off because the US will stop meddling in internation affairs, especially in the middle east and latin America. Europe will just help itself to all the scrumptious Libyan oil, for instance. China will help itself to Pakistan. The Taliban to Afghanistan. Latin America will go to the left and will be left to deal with Chavez and his oil. You'll get a whole chain reaction, unilateral actions don't exist in international politics.
    Personally, I hope smart Americans realize this and will prevent that from happening, but I dunno..that chance seems to be getting smaller with the day.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJessi View Post
    In 1887 Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinborough, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

    "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

    "The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage."

    Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the last Presidential election:

    Number of States won by: Obama: 19 McCain: 29
    Square miles of land won by: Obama: 580,000 McCain: 2,427,000
    Population of counties won by: Obama: 127 million McCain: 143 million
    Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Obama: 13.2 McCain: 2.1

    Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory McCain won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of the country. Obama territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in low income tenements and living off various forms of government welfare..."

    Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

    So the question for voting-age Americans is: Where do you want your country to go from here? Back toward freedom and liberty or toward dependency and eventually bondage? You get to put in your answer in 2012!
    So, I looked this Alexander Tytler up on wikipedia... and look what it said:



    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Misquotation - Tytler Cycle

    The following unverified quotation has been attributed to Tytler, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election[9]. While it is unverified, a) It may still contain true statements. b) It may still have been written by Tytler:
    A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
    From bondage to spiritual faith;
    From spiritual faith to great courage;
    From courage to liberty;
    From liberty to abundance;
    From abundance to selfishness;
    From selfishness to complacency;
    From complacency to apathy;
    From apathy to dependence;
    From dependence back into bondage.
    There is no reliable record of Alexander Tytler's having made the statement.[9] In fact, this passage actually comprises two quotations, which didn't begin to appear together until the 1970s.[10] The first portion (italicized above) first appeared on December 9, 1951, as part of what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson.[11] The original version was as follows:
    Two centuries ago, a somewhat obscure Scotsman named Tytler made this profound observation: "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."
    The list beginning "From bondage to spiritual faith" is commonly known as the "Tytler Cycle" or the "Fatal Sequence". Its first known appearance is in a 1943 speech "Industrial Management in a Republic"[12] by H. W. Prentis, president of the Armstrong Cork Company and former president of the National Association of Manufacturers, and appears to be original to Prentis.
    Alexander Fraser Tytler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    So what do I have to day about this?

    First of all, if you're going to credit something to someone, try and spell their name correctly, secondly, Edinburgh University is one of the best universities in the world (although I might be biased) so, again, try and spell it correctly, and thirdly, don't misquote. It's naughty and wrong!

    Kapow!

  7. #7

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    Yay, another poorly-backed conservative rant about how America is dying because of entitlements. I'll bite.


    (1) 1887 Sometime before 1813 was still long before democracy had become the government of choice in the world rather than the exception to the rule, and no great democracy had ever survived for an extended period of time.

    (2) The idea that American history neatly lines up with that progression is laughable. No, we did not become more courageous, then more free, then achieve abundance. Such a view of us always progressing is laughable in the way it covers up how many times we slid backwards and repeated our mistakes.

    (3) Those 2008 election statistics have shock value but are totally meaningless. Yes, Democrats tend to appeal to constituencies which live in more densely populated areas. So what? A human life is worth a human life, regardless of how much land per capita exists in his county. Also, yes, crime rates are higher in more densely populated areas, and the statistic about population in counties won is worthless and misleading given that it doesn't account for things like one candidate winning a higher percentage of the vote in the counties he won.

    (4) It's ridiculous to suggest that a bunch of the population aren't taxpayers. Essentially everyone is a taxpayer, and the system isn't particularly progressive either. Essentially every tax other than federal income tax and state property taxes is regressive.

    (5) 40% is a ridiculously large number to claim is dependent on government. Presumably, that means you're including anyone who derives a significant part of their income from Social Security and Medicare benefits, which is beyond silly since people paid payroll taxes their entire lives to earn those entitlements. They're dependent on the pension that they earned and which just happens to be administered by the government (with amazingly low bureaucratic costs relative to private sector analogues, I might add). You might as well say 100% of the population is dependent on government since it paves our roads and we use roads.

    (6) All this conveniently ignores that the rest of the economically developed world has stronger safety nets than we do, and their governments are anything but tyrannical. Heck, most of them are considered less corrupt than our own.

    (7) We are the most unequal of any major developed country and it's not close. The most laissez-faire period in our history was the Gilded Age, in which the extreme inequality is well-characterized by the fact that a massive proportion of the population existed in a wage-slave underclass. Given historical reference, I wouldn't count actions which increase inequality as making us more "free". Such is "freedom" in an unbelievably penny-rich pound-poor manner.

    (8) The very party which rails against entitlements just loves big government when it means enforcing it's consensus views on social issues or expanding the state's police powers or building an army capable of winning a land war across Germany against a country that dissolved two decades ago.

    (9) In light of all this, your question at the end about either moving "back toward freedom and liberty or toward dependency and eventually bondage" is a false dilemma.



    EDIT: All that and I missed the fact, as pointed out by others, that your math on the election statistics both doesn't add up and is blatantly wrong.

  8. #8

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    oh, something else - apparently Tytler also died in 1813, when there was not, and had never been a state IN THE ENTIRE WORLD in which universal suffrage was practised.

  9. #9

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    Ok... here's the scoop. I didn't check all the facts exactly before I posted so I'm not sure how exactly how accurate they are but the basic truth is there. The number of states is based on land area: (see map below from politcalmaps.org originally published in the USAToday). The two missing states were statistical ties on land area. As you can see it is mostly red (McCain/Palin). Of course Obama won because he got the more populous states (i.e NY, CA, etc.)

    http://politicalmaps.org/wp-content/...-wash-post.gif

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyJessi View Post
    As you can see it is mostly red (McCain/Palin).
    And this matters because? I still fail to understand why "land area won" matters in a democracy - care to explain?


    Sent from my iPhone

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