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Thread: America is NOT a Christian nation.

  1. #1

    Default America is NOT a Christian nation.

    First and foremost, I am not against theology. Please, do not raise a flag off offense, this is simply me clearing up a rampant myth that the US is a Christian nation, and with that I will do this on one line from the Treaty of Tripoli.
    Unanimously Ratified by senate, from article 11:



    As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
    Now, with that said; America should not be a secular nation devoid of any spirituality and aggressively against theological beliefs. Today however, there are those amongst us who believe that the US is in a holy war against Islam, Homosexuals, Abortion, and 'Marxism'. From the home, to the front lines the militarism of the Judo-Christian for 'traditional values' that, aren't traditional from any stand point. Just a century and a half ago forced marriage, slavery, and sentences to death were common place in this country. Just sixty years ago it was "traditional" to disallow marriage between blacks and whites.

    In today's world, where do we stand? It seems that, the most venerated, and hated politicans out there use Christianity as a means of being elected: Rick Santorm, Christine O'Donnell, Sara Palin to name a few. Getting people riled up about issues of faith is their path to veneration, and power. Keep America, American, distrust any candidate who sells themselves with a theological hook. Look what Bush did for us... Look at the Tea Party candidates. The war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan... How much more can we do to delude ourselves from America's true purpose?

  2. #2
    Butterfly Mage

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    I cringe every time I hear about this nation being "Christian" Our government is secular and always has been

  3. #3

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    I completely agree, Corri. The irony of this is that fewer Americans go to church than say 20 years ago. The religious right has been using religion to get elected ever since Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority. What's sad is that so many Americans are to stupid to see through all the words, rhetoric and dishonesty. One of the idiots running in Virginia for Congress wants to eliminate the Federal Department of Education. Some of the Wingnuts believe that even Social Security is Socialism and want to end that as well. Solid thinking Americans need to stand up to the crazies and take back their country. It makes me think of John Stewart Return to Sanity campaign. We can only hope.

  4. #4

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    I always get a kick out of calling muslims "Musslemen". I get strange looks from white guys when I say that.

    If the noun is good enough for Thomas Jefferson, it's good enough for the rest of us.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    One of the idiots running in Virginia for Congress wants to eliminate the Federal Department of Education.
    I hear your Attorney General is doing a bang-up job as well.

    ---------- Post added at 11:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 PM ----------



    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    I completely agree, Corri. The irony of this is that fewer Americans go to church than say 20 years ago. The religious right has been using religion to get elected ever since Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority. What's sad is that so many Americans are to stupid to see through all the words, rhetoric and dishonesty.
    But what's good is that their type is a dying breed. Look a a graph that shows approval and disapproval over time for the last century for interracial marriage. You'll see a big X, where it started almost entirely con and slowly yet steadily turned just as pro. Then you look at the same thing with gay marriage. It looks identical, but with only the left half of the X (more like a >). The point is, though it may sound morbid, the young'uns are more progressive each generation, and the religious right is slowly yet literally dying out. It won't be good for our country if the crazies win next week (I think they will, it's a matter of how much). But it'll be temporary. The paradigm shift is in happening.

  6. #6

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    I cringe every time I hear about this nation being "Christian" Our government is secular and always has been
    Errrrr, no, really. Save, say, Thomas Jefferson (I think), every one of the writers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, not to mention every President (and I'm sure nearly every Congress and Senator as well), have been Christian [Or, let me say, they claimed to be. Many have failed to align their actions with their beliefs]. Regardless of what kind of liberal or conservative or whatever government agenda has been pushed, the leaders of our country have been influenced by a morality they learned and claim to follow based on the teachings of Christianity.


    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    We were definitely founded by men who believed in something greater than us- "their Creator".

    Now, I'm hardly trying to defend any president or even say that all their actions are morally correct or in line with Christianity. But the Bill of Rights defends anyone who wants to use their religion as a basis for their beliefs.


    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    We're protected by the Government to exercise religion. We're allowed to bring it into our government. We're allowed to let it influence our decisions and our voting. We're allowed to have politicians that run who are Pro-Life, or don't believe in extending marriage rights to gays. You and I and everyone else may or may not agree with what the politicians bring to the table, but that's why we vote. Vote, or hell, run for office. If you don't like what's being done, change it. That's the beauty of America.



    Quote Originally Posted by dogboy View Post
    The religious right has been using religion to get elected
    Well, I know for a fact that the Catholic Church never 'officially' backs an individual politician. It doesn't consider voting for one politician or one party or whatever to be a sin based on one issue. I don't know about the rest of Christianity, though. Sure, some people will vote for a candidate because they're the same religion. But at the same time, many Baptists will vote against Catholics, even if they share the same beliefs, simply because there's a lot of rivalry between the two groups.



    What's sad is that so many Americans are to stupid to see through all the words, rhetoric and dishonesty.
    This has nothing to do with religion. That's a statement that can be made about any American, atheist, agnostic, theist, whatever. [And yes, I know the terms were used incorrectly.] There have been many many intelligent and skilled people running for office who are theist, and there's many theists in office who have no place representing anyone. There's theist voters who don't vote a party, but choose politicians by understanding the issues and making an intelligent choice, and there's many who walk in and punch the Republican (or Democrat?) button and walk out. Again, theism, atheism, whatever, has nothing to do with it.



    Some of the Wingnuts believe that even Social Security is Socialism and want to end that as well.
    Err.. it is socialistic. Social Security. The idea of socialism is that everyone shares the wealth. You pay into a system, and then you get a "fair" amount back. I'm not saying Social Security is good or bad. I disagree with it, but that's because 1) I'll pay into it all my life and probably won't get a dime and 2) is socialistic, what I believe is a violation of my freedom to do what I want with my earned money. But it is, by definition a socialistic entity founded on the ideology of Socialism.



    Solid thinking Americans need to stand up to the crazies and take back their country.
    Solid thinking Americans, regardless of their beliefs, need to improve our country. America is founded on freedom. It's not your country anymore than it is mine. Not all religious are totally right winged and crazy. I'll let you know that a few weeks ago, I was firmly against gay marriage, for my own reasons. Then one of my fraternity brothers got married- to another guy. It kind of changed things around for me. I attended his wedding and supported a brother and friend. Now? I'm not sure what I believe. I'm searching again. Please, don't judge all of us by the actions of a few.



    The point is, though it may sound morbid, the young'uns are more progressive each generation, and the religious right is slowly yet literally dying out. It won't be good for our country if the crazies win next week (I think they will, it's a matter of how much). But it'll be temporary. The paradigm shift is in happening.
    I just went to a speaker last week who spoke on this election. This guy has been on CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and countless other TV shows as a fair and balanced political analyzer[?]. Regardless, if you look at the past 2 centuries, there's been a pattern in elections. Typically after the left have had a few years as majority, it seems like the overwhelming majority of the time the nation sweeps back to the right for usually at least a decade or so, but often much longer. I think, also, that there's a lot more in generation who going back and becoming more conservative. I'm well aware that I do surround myself by plenty of conservative friends, but, and maybe it's just me, but I see a lot more conservatives in my generation than just 10 or 20 years ago. Though, really, I see a generation that I hope is going to be much more educated and active in politics, and hopefully balance and more intelligent politicians and voters will make this country better, regardless of what direction that is.

    And, like Corri, I'm not here to flame or offend. If my word are taken the wrong way, I do apologize in advance.
    Last edited by Goose; 25-Oct-2010 at 04:23.

  7. #7

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    Well it was always said that America was founded on Christian beliefs and morals. This being the case of not; America is far from that now. America changed drastically during the 60's, and not for the better. I'm not a religious man, and could care less about religion, but America needs to turn 360 or it will continue to fall apart as it has been. When there is no punishment for crime, and no repercussions for wrongdoings; there is no order. Do you think there were per capita the number of murders, rapes, child molestations, gangs, drugs, and petty crap like tagging back in the 20's, 30's, 40's or even 50's? I know for a fact there were not.

    Since politics are on trial here (as they should be): Religion plays a small roll in politics these days. Regardless of whatever religion a politician claims to be. They all follow the the oh mighty dollar and they do it religiously.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goose View Post
    I just went to a speaker last week who spoke on this election. This guy has been on CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and countless other TV shows as a fair and balanced political analyzer[?]. Regardless, if you look at the past 2 centuries, there's been a pattern in elections. Typically after the left have had a few years as majority, it seems like the overwhelming majority of the time the nation sweeps back to the right for usually at least a decade or so, but often much longer. I think, also, that there's a lot more in generation who going back and becoming more conservative. I'm well aware that I do surround myself by plenty of conservative friends, but, and maybe it's just me, but I see a lot more conservatives in my generation than just 10 or 20 years ago. Though, really, I see a generation that I hope is going to be much more educated and active in politics, and hopefully balance and more intelligent politicians and voters will make this country better, regardless of what direction that is.
    He's talking about realignment theory. This is basically politics 101 stuff. There's a few years where one party is controlling the national dialogue and the other only has enough political influence to react. People eventually get disillusioned, and then look to the other party for answers. It's essentially the dynastic cycle applied to a two-party democracy.

    That's not what I'm after.

    Don't think of my point in terms of how many republicans or democrats there are. Think of it in terms of social issues. I can think of tons I can name where society has slowly been shifting to the left for quite a long time.

    • More accepting of gay marriage (and BLGT people in general).
    • More accepting of interracial marriage (and racial minorities in general).
    • More accepting of non-traditional families: single mom, single dad, stay-at-home dad, unmarried parents, unwed pregnant woman, etc.
    • More accepting of abortion.
    • More accepting of casual sex and public displays of sexuality.
    • More accepting of women in the workforce, equal treatment, equal pay.
    • More accepting of women in politics.
    • More concerned about the condition of the environment.
    • Abandonment of dogmatic religions.


    Several of these items are subjective to my personal observation. If anyone feels differently on an item I can't back up, I'll accept your disagreement.

    Now some issues will always be contentious, like taxes. You're always going to see a public ebb and flow in reaction to tax policy. However, take the example above of interracial marriage. I don't think public acceptance of whites/blacks/hispanics/etc marrying is something that's beholden to realignment theory. It's something the public gets more accepting of as time goes on and that's that. Personally, I think the recent healthcare bill (and sooner or later, universal healthcare) will be another example. Medicare, now an extremely popular social program, was extremely decisive when it was passed. Today, weakening medicare is a great way to commit political suicide.

    As for your comment that you see a lot of conservatives in your generation, I'd ask how old you are. You may be seeing the registration bump Reagan initiated.

    ---------- Post added at 01:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:54 AM ----------

    As for the state of the nation and the coming election, yes, the Republicans are going to win. The base, who hate things like giving poor people health insurance, are fired up. I personally doubt that this signals a new paradigm shift in public attitudes. It represents a temporary response to current conditions. People are upset that Obama in two years hasn't fixed eight years of Bush-era economic screw-ups. Right or wrong, it's happening. Things like that are working on the indie voters. As for the tea party, I don't see it so much as there being more people on the right as I see the people on the right are getting louder. Will there be more republicans voting this year than in 2008? I think it's more likely than not. And it's not an unreasonable conclusion to draw that when total number of votes cast "for" a party increases from a presidential election year to a mid-term election year that there are more people supporting the party. In my opinion, that's not the case. It's just a higher turnout. John McCain failed to turn out the republican base- keep in mind he's not terribly popular in the party at large. Better at turning out the Republican base is the anger generated by giving poor people health insurance.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoggyDoggy View Post
    Well it was always said that America was founded on Christian beliefs and morals. This being the case of not; America is far from that now. America changed drastically during the 60's, and not for the better. I'm not a religious man, and could care less about religion, but America needs to turn 360 or it will continue to fall apart as it has been. When there is no punishment for crime, and no repercussions for wrongdoings; there is no order. Do you think there were per capita the number of murders, rapes, child molestations, gangs, drugs, and petty crap like tagging back in the 20's, 30's, 40's or even 50's? I know for a fact there were not.

    Since politics are on trial here (as they should be): Religion plays a small roll in politics these days. Regardless of whatever religion a politician claims to be. They all follow the the oh mighty dollar and they do it religiously.
    Violent crimes have been in steady decline since the early 90s. They peaked in the early 80s, iirc.

  10. #10

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    As for your comment that you see a lot of conservatives in your generation, I'd ask how old you are. You may be seeing the registration bump Reagan initiated.
    I'm 19, soon to be 20. I don't think it has to do with Reagan, though I don't know know about that particular affect.



    As for the state of the nation and the coming election, yes, the Republicans are going to win. The base, who hate things like giving poor people health insurance, are fired up.
    Haha, I don't think anyone is against helping out the poor. In fact, the Health Care bill in general is not about helping out the poor. Hell, right now I'm poor, making my way through college on loans and tiring jobs. It's about the fact that it'll be requiring me to have health insurance. I don't want government regulation on my life. Government has proved, time and time again, regardless of party or politician, that they screw up whatever they're in control of. We had Medicare and Social Security, which started off as a good thing, is now not pulling in as much money as it is giving away. Its scheduled to go bankrupt. The government is incredibly inefficient. I'd rather keep control of my money- whether it be donating to charities I believe are truly helping people, or putting it in my own 401k or retirement funds for me to manage on my own.



    I personally doubt that this signals a new paradigm shift in public attitudes. It represents a temporary response to current conditions. People are upset that Obama in two years hasn't fixed eight years of Bush-era economic screw-ups.
    Perhaps some are, but plenty are upset in general with the direction the Democrat-majority Congress has been going. We're not voting for the President this year, we're voting for Congress. People are upset with the government in general, not just the President.



    Better at turning out the Republican base is the anger generated by giving poor people health insurance.
    ...again, by an entire Congress voting for reform that the majority of Americans disapprove of. I'm poor. I wouldn't have been covered by health care insurance had it not been for the Democrats extending the age to which I can be covered under my parent's health care. But I don't want to be babied (is that ironic on this forum?). I want to make my own decisions, make my own money, and reap the repercussions of my actions, good or bad.

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