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Thread: Crucifix in Schools

  1. #1

    Default Crucifix in Schools

    Recently, a sentence form European court for Human Rights has been pronunced in favour to remove crucifix from Italian schools and classrooms.

    The reason is: "It's a violation of Parent's freedom to raise their child with their own religious Ideas and a violation of Student's freedom of religion".

    needless to say, this lead to many talks and actions, with many political parties telling to punish whoever tries to remove them from schools.

    As my personal point of view, I find this sentence right, since I feel the crucifix as a symbol that recalls the christian religion and, in a certain way, "scares" children which believes in a different god or doesn't even believe it exists.
    In time like this, with a spreading fear for other religions, in particular Islam, this sentence could be a little step for an easier integration of foreign people in our country, especially people from middle-east countries.

    As some people points out, the main reason they doesn't want the crucifix to be removed, is that the symbol is something that represents our country since long time, like it is something needed to make us feel more Italian and proud to be Catholic.

    At this point, in my opinion, there are many different symbols that could be used for this purpose instead of using a symbol that recalls religion.
    Still, Living in a country close to Vatican, which have a great influence on everyday life and on politics, makes this sentence harder to accept.

    What do you think about this?

  2. #2

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    It is sad what they are doing to Christianity in America. Founded on Christianity and blessed by god in prospering. Now in 2009 everyone has fallen away and rejected god in favor of science or bullcrap theories. Obama now calls us a "godless nation" and we are failing miserably I wonder why?

  3. #3

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    I might get banned for this, but religion as a topic always sets me off. Religion / God has NO place in public society, your beliefs are personal, keep them that way! You people who push your religion on other people are as bad as the radicalists in the far east. And while i'm ranting, I hate when people giving an interview after an event say "oh, and I thank god for giving me the strength/knowledge/heart to do this" blah blah blah. Why cant people/countries realize that it was their own hard work/ingenuity/dedication that got them to where they are, not some unseen entity.

  4. #4

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    learning2wear:
    First of all, Target was talking about a new law in Italy, not America.

    Second of all, most of the founders of the USA were Deists, not Christians. The First Amendment to our Constitution forbids the legal establishment of any religion, or any law affecting the free practice of any religion. Separation of Church and State was actually one of the founding ideals of our country.

    Finally, there is no reason why crucifixes or other religious symbols should be displayed in public schools in Italy, the USA, or any other country. Public schools are funded by ALL taxpayers, not just the Catholic ones. Not all the children who attend them are Catholic, either. Tax money should not be spent for religious purposes, and children should not be indoctrinated into any religion (or, for that matter, into Atheism) by the state. Rather, they should be free to make their own decisions regarding their religious beliefs; and any education in religion is the responsibility of their parents or gaurdians, not the government.
    While displaying religious symbols in schools technically isn't "indoctrination", it is still inappropriate. Freedom of Religion is one of the most important freedoms we enjoy, and to preserve it, church and state should be separated and the government should never make laws giving preference to any religion or to no religion at all.
    Furthermore, as I said previously, Freedom of Religion and the Separation of Church and State are actually very American values. I am sick and tired of Christian Theocrats such as yourself claiming that this is a Christian nation, and trying to legislate your religious beliefs. I am Catholic, and I still feel this way; for just as I appreciate the freedom to practice Catholicism, I want everyone else to have the same freedom to practice their own religion, or to practice no religion at all if they choose. Religion is a personal choice and the government has no right to interfere.
    While you support the mingling of religion and government now, I am sure you will realize the importance of what I am saying if, for instance, Islam becomes the majority religion here in America and all the Muslims in Congress want to legally enforce Sharia Law. Or if Hinduism becomes the majority religion and all the Hindus in Congress want to make it illegal to eat meat.



    More on the original topic of this thread, I fully support the decision to remove the crucifix from schools, as long as it only applies to public schools. Private schools ought to have the right to teach religion and to display religious schools if they want to; to forbid them to would violate their own freedom of religion.
    This is encouraging news, as it seems to me that so many European countries legislate the beliefs of one religion, or persecute another religion. For instance, in much of Europe it is illegal to wear Islamic clothing in public, and in the UK, Anglican ministers are payed with taxpayer funds.
    The USA certainly has plenty of problems with this as well, such as laws that exist for religious reasons or that violate the Seperation of Church and State. But we cannot ignore the same problems when they occur in Europe.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussy View Post
    I might get banned for this, but religion as a topic always sets me off. Religion / God has NO place in public society, your beliefs are personal, keep them that way! You people who push your religion on other people are as bad as the radicalists in the far east. And while i'm ranting, I hate when people giving an interview after an event say "oh, and I thank god for giving me the strength/knowledge/heart to do this" blah blah blah. Why cant people/countries realize that it was their own hard work/ingenuity/dedication that got them to where they are, not some unseen entity.
    This. Also add to the list of things that annoy me is people talking about their religion, yet never actually following it. If your going to thank god for your competition win, reward etc, actually go to church once in a while. Otherwise your just being hypocritical.

    Also, atheists who have their weddings in churches. If only one half of the couple was atheist, I could understand, but when both are atheist and they still do strikes me as hypocritical aswell.

    (I'm not saying atheists should never go into churches. I'm an atheist and I still go for births/weddings/funerals. In that's case it's the view of the baby's parents/couple/dead person that matters.)

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning2wear View Post
    It is sad what they are doing to Christianity in America. Founded on Christianity and blessed by god in prospering. Now in 2009 everyone has fallen away and rejected god in favor of science or bullcrap theories. Obama now calls us a "godless nation" and we are failing miserably I wonder why?
    Yo buddy, this is about Italy. Haven't crucifixes been banned in american public school classrooms for a long time?

    I don't want to turn this thread on it's heels, but it really irks me when Americans say that their country has been blessed by god and that's why you're so great. America is a fantastic country. I love it and I hope to move there some day. But the reason you're so damn prosperous isn't because of any god (whether or not they exist, which is a topic for another discussion). It's because of the hard work of men and women like you who worked their asses off to build a new home.
    When you take that away and claim that it's all God's work, you've pretty much just shit all over your own country and it's founders. I hope you don't think you're a patriotic American. Because, brotha, you ain't.

    By the way, that science and those bullcrap theories are what allow you to live the life of luxury you're living right now.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning2wear View Post
    It is sad what they are doing to Christianity in America. Founded on Christianity and blessed by god in prospering. Now in 2009 everyone has fallen away and rejected god in favor of science or bullcrap theories. Obama now calls us a "godless nation" and we are failing miserably I wonder why?
    Yocky covered most of this, but there are a few other points that need to be made. It has been clearly expressed in law in the Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11 by President and Founding Father John Adams (the elder, not President and King of the Muttonchops John Q Adams), that the United States is not in any way a Christian nation. The country was not founded on Christianity or even Christian principles, nor was it founded by Christians.

    Further, in 2009, Americans sit at #2 on the list of populations that reject science. Approximately only 40% of Americans believe evolution is true. The only country in the world that has a lower percentage is Turkey. As for "failing miserably", you're going to have to define that. I'd say things are pretty damn good. Despite the kicking and screaming from people who think the morality of the Leave it to Beaver was the peak of American existence, science marches on and churns out amazing innovations that make all our lives better. We live longer, healthier, safer lives than offered at any point in history.

    You are using quite possibly the greatest invention of all time. Thanks to science that you dismiss as "bullcrap theories", we have, at our fingertips 24/7, access to the largest and most comprehensive information repository in history. Anything you could possibly want to learn is available to you. Mathematics? Art? Biology? Physics? Engineering? Literature? Architecture? Language? Chemistry? It's all right here, waiting for you. I understand the place that religion used to have in society. I really, really do. We all have questions, and we all want answers. For a long, long time, the people with the most answers were the churches. But in the last 300 years or so, science has not only caught up, but completely blown religion out of the water when it comes to answering questions. The problem is, religion's answers are easy and comfortable, whereas science (like all real life) often only offers us unsatisfying answers. Why did that flood destroy my house and kill my children? Religion says it's because there's all a big plan concocted by the man in the sky, and everything is going to be OK if you just believe and clap your hands hard enough (or is that bringing dead fairies back to life?). Science says it's because the unseasonable warmth up north caused heavier rainfall than the established waterways could handle, and through the sheer random violence of the natural world, people died and property was destroyed. The problem is, religion hasn't cured any diseases, flown us to the moon, made my bed warm or my beer cold. Science is responsible for all those things.

    So you're wrong on your history, current events and your science. You also fail at consistent morality, since you mange to rail against "bullcrap theories" while reaping the benefits, like not being crippled by polio or dying of a staph infection from a small cut.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning2wear View Post
    It is sad what they are doing to Christianity in America. Founded on Christianity and blessed by god in prospering. Now in 2009 everyone has fallen away and rejected god in favor of science or bullcrap theories. Obama now calls us a "godless nation" and we are failing miserably I wonder why?
    This thread has nothing to do with America.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yocky View Post
    in much of Europe it is illegal to wear Islamic clothing in public
    Much of Europe? A handful of countries have disallowed either religious dress or full face and body veils in public institutions such as schools and I think there might be one or two regional bans, but I'm not aware of any blanket or country-wide bans on the clothing or merely wearing it in public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yocky View Post
    and in the UK, Anglican ministers are payed with taxpayer funds.
    No they aren't. The Church of England is the established church - a notion I disagree with - but it doesn't receive any government funding.

    Still, on to the topic: it seems to me completely sensible to disallow state schools from advocating or advertising a particular religion. We're talking about national, secular and publicly-run and funded organisations so for them to display and revere particular religious iconography would be an endorsement of one religion on the state's behalf. They don't have the right or authority to do that and they certainly shouldn't. Indeed, the concept of freedom of religion would dictate as much as religious indoctrination through a pubic educational facility surely undermines personal choice and constitutes prescription.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by learning2wear View Post
    It is sad what they are doing to Christianity in America. Founded on Christianity and blessed by god in prospering. Now in 2009 everyone has fallen away and rejected god in favor of science or bullcrap theories. Obama now calls us a "godless nation" and we are failing miserably I wonder why?
    America was never set up on Christianity. It was founded by deists who believed in separation of the Government and religion. It has been successful due to a number of factors, but being "blessed by god" isn't one. We are in a recession right now because the economy is cyclical, not because god is mad at us. Science is good, and although it may not be the same stories you've been fed since you were born, it is founded in fact and observation, rather than a book that has been translated and retranslated hundreds of time. Instead of writing it off because it may or may lead people away from your God, you should come see what all the rage is about and make decisions for yourself.

    This particular case may be in Italy, but it can extended to include lawmaking in America regarding religious symbols in the classroom. I am currently reminded of prayer being banned form public school classrooms and the movement to take "Under God" out of the American pledge of Allegiance (A phrase that was added after it had been in use).

  10. #10

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    I would argue with those that believe our founding fathers were deists rather than Christians. They were both. Church services were different in the 1700's. They sometime lasted hours, and there were a variety of denominations practicing worship differently. J. S. Bach, an Evangelical Lutheran, wrote a new cantata every week, which began the service. They could easily last between 20 -40 minutes, then there was the rest of the service and a sermon that might last another hour. The Anglican church was different, with the emphasis placed on liturgy. They all believed in God, and his influence on the world.

    The founding fathers also believed that church had a lot of political power, and had often been corrupted, usurping power from Kings, stealing land, and murdering the innocent. When they fought for freedom and split away from England, they made sure that those things could not happen in this, their new republic. So they deliberately wrote into the Constitution, separation of church and state. We can all be glad they did.

    I'm amazed that the idiots on Fox News claim to be part of the religious right, but speak/preach intolerance and hate toward anyone who is different form them, or thinks differently. Their world is small and pin headed. Sadly, they sway public opinion with misinformation and out right lies. The founding fathers knew how important freedom of the press was, but they assumed that the press would honestly present facts, because without honesty and accurate information, we the people, cannot make informed choices. If the country has gone down the tubes, that is one reason, though there are many other reasons, all saved for another thread.

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