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Thread: Earth, Heaven and Hell

  1. #1

    Default Earth, Heaven and Hell

    I've been doing some thinking as of late. I believe that I am wiccan and am trying to learn more about it. I was looking for books on the subject on the Barnes & Noble website and while looking at a book intitled The Wiccan Bible which looks like a good book and I might get it. In my searching I found another book called The Satanic Bible I took at look at it and something clicked in my head.

    Is it possible that Satan is the true savior? The reason I think this is that people think Satan is evil because from birth your told what to think, your told what is good and evil. However, if you look at the bible all God does is kill or tell people to kill. People say that Satan is evil and will hurt you and that hell is a horable place. How do you get there? Kill, lie, cheat, steal. That's the Devil's bidding, why would he hurt you for doing what he wants you to do? Seems to me that Satan is misunderstood and people don't have the commen sence to think outside the box and find their own answers.

    Then there's Wicca. To me, Wicca is faith in the Earth and belive that everything is alive and should be respected. Respect and take care of the Earth and it will take care of you.

    I think there's more to this but that's the best way I know how to word it. Any thoughts?

  2. #2

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    When was god as vengeance in the new testament as he was in the old testament? Anyways what would the devil want with you? I just don't see why the devil/satan would care about anyone at all. God however made us in his own image or so the bible says.

    If your right about what your saying we are pretty much playing out ABC's "LOST" if you been following the show at all. In that sense if you are right we are merely pieces in a game of chess.

  3. #3
    Jeffy

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    It is a very valid and well thought out idea :3
    This ideal has crossed my mind many a time. But I find that religious things are nothing more than ways that people can come together for what they believe. Just like a furry convention every sunday... except like x10000.
    People naturally crave a place to belong, and religions seem to the the most widely available way to satisfy that craving.
    As for an existence of heaven and hell?
    I am satisfied with the concept that once we die... we simply cease to exist.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
    Is it possible that Satan is the true savior? The reason I think this is that people think Satan is evil because from birth your told what to think, your told what is good and evil. However, if you look at the bible all God does is kill or tell people to kill. People say that Satan is evil and will hurt you and that hell is a horable place. How do you get there? Kill, lie, cheat, steal. That's the Devil's bidding, why would he hurt you for doing what he wants you to do? Seems to me that Satan is misunderstood and people don't have the commen sence to think outside the box and find their own answers.
    You're told whats good and evil for a reason, BECAUSE THATS WHAT'S GOOD AND EVIL. For example Killing, lying, cheating, stealing = evil.

    Because he wants you to do that for purely selfish reasons. He hates you and he hates God. By disobeying God you are dong what he wants, but he is in no way going to reward you for it, because he couldn't give 2 shits about you.

    And have you actually read the bible? As in the new testament? Otherwise

    Quote Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
    all God does is kill or tell people to kill.
    is just your presumptions.
    Last edited by MyLastWords; 13-Jul-2009 at 18:12. Reason: Forgot a bit

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    Except its not that black and white. Killing to protect oneself, family, or countrymen is hardly evil. Lying to protect someone is hardly evil. Cheating can be a means to a positive end. Stealing to feed the poor is hardly evil.

    Absolute good and evil is an illusion. Morality is subjective to the situation at hand.


    Selfishness isn't always a bad thing. Harnessed correctly selfishness can be quite useful. It's selfish for humans to change the environment around us to benefit ourself at the expense of other species. But it's beneficial to us, and I'm guessing most christians aren't planning to live in hippie convents.


    Are you doing it for satan or for himself. As thats what most satanism focuses on.


    Umm... have you read the old testament? Or the new testament and revelations?



    Back to the original poster.

    As for as I can see it, if you do accept both satan and god as real then the both of them are pretty big bastards. According the the bible satan wishes to subordinate mankind and cause chaos amongst us as the supreme ruler. God wants to kill most of us off to turn those who are loyal to his dogma into slaves.

    To me it would be the difference between horse poop and cow poop. Both are completely unappealing options. Though (again speaking as if these stories were true, as I don't believe any of them are), then I would put satan above god. Though definitely not a saviour. Many branches of christianity characterize the serpant that tempted eve as satan in disguise.

    God lied about the forbidden fruit, as it did not kill them as he had said. Which is his statements, not simply they would be mortal that they would surely die. The serpent simply provided the truth, that they would not die from eating the fruit. And in turn granted them the knowledge of good and evil. On top of that if we put the omniscient spin on the whole shebang then God knew this was going to happen in the first place, and everything that is to happen and simply sits back and watches the chaos until he decides that enoughs enough and commits genocide upon the human race.



    Though I'm not sure where the point of heaven and hell come into play here. Hell as characterized in pop culture has no root in biblical scripture. You aren't tortured by little demons in a fiery cave. Revelations clearly lays out that those who are not found in the book of life after the second general resurrection will have their souls destroyed in the lake of fire. So for anyone who's a non-believer in any afterlife, its all the same.
    But speaking of the hell or pop culture, it's quite a childish and frankly pointless punishment. We're being damned for eternity for finite sins of a temporary earth. Frankly if any parent were to enact this on a child they would be arrested and quickly labelled a sadistic psycho. So I don't get how those of faith can view such actions by a supreme being as just and ethical. But I digress.
    If one we're to be tortured for eternity, anyone with a basic knowledge of psychology would know that humans would quickly delve into a realm of insanity and be completely despondent with the world around them. Making torturing them pretty pointless.

    Though I find heaven a far more crueler fate. Heaven requires one to give up all things good and bad, to submit to someone as sadistic and cruel as god for all eternity with no recollection of the past. To return to the ignorance of Adam and Eve.

    For me, I'll choose the lake, or eternal insanity then giving up my humanity to someone like that.


    Though if you want my advice. Look outside of faith. Instead of asking yourself what you should believe, start asking why you believe something. You started already in questioning why you believe people think things are good and evil. Keep going, look for why you hold a belief and try to justify that belief with evidence and reason.

    Three quotes I hold dear to me.

    ~"Nothing is sacred. If one must hold something above criticism and doubt, chances are it's incorrect. Hence why it needed to be protected to survive in the first place."

    ~"Be ready to justify what you believe, and always seek to prove yourself wrong. "Because I said so" or "just because" is never a viable answer. If you can't explain why, you don't actually know."

    ~"It's better to be corrected and look a fool, then to continue ignorance and BE a fool. There is no need to fear being incorrect. Being aware of errors allows one to learn and improve."
    I'll give you $1,000 to go to a chuch in the south and give that speech. Obcouse you will be behind bulet proof glass.

  6. #6
    Mako

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
    I'll give you $1,000 to go to a chuch in the south and give that speech. Obcouse you will be behind bulet proof glass.
    I prefer to observe silently and learn their beliefs. Doing something that would be extremely likely to bring harm wouldn't be in my best interest. Also it would be pointless, as my intent is to get my belief across. Such a speech would be blocked out by loud hollers and jeering. In text you have to read the whole thing before being able to criticize it effectively. Critique which I invite. ^-^

    Though if they were to harm me, they would not be very good Christians. But the $1000 is quite appealing

    But to restate I still encourage you to keep asking questions. Keep asking why you believe, why you should or shouldn't believe, etc. And see where it leads you.

    A video of possible interest.

  7. #7

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    If you read up on the origins of the devil, you'll find that he has a pretty legit complaint against god. Though I don't believe in the devil; not quite sure about god either. And I certainly don't believe in Hell. If there is a god, I don't believe he would create such a place, I don't believe that he would subject anyone he loves to that. Recall that it was god who time and again renewed the covenant when his people strayed. Why should that change now or in death?

    Besides which, the introduction of the Serpent in the Book of Genesis is, to my thinking, metaphor. The Serpent is us. There is no devil who tempts us; just temptation. There is no devil who makes us evil; just evil people. There is no devil who drives us to wrong; just people erring. Read the Book of Genesis. You'll find mention of an underworld, but it bears resemblence to the Greek underworld. There is no Heaven, no Hell. Just a gray world where you go when you die and do, it appears, nothing. Heaven and Hell are not present in the Jewish texts. The Kingdom of God was meant literally as the Kingdom of Israel set aside for the Jews and anyone else living there, but for the Jews to rule over it by god's laws. Simple really: "You keep my law, I'll give you a home and success as a people." Heaven and Hell are purely Christian in this context. This is an interesting split between what one part of the Christian Bible says and the rest. There is no resurrection until the Second Coming in the Jewish texts, and hence no Heaven. Christianity has imposed Heaven and Hell retroactively without has not corrected the contradiction.

    Anyway, a purely academic argument. To quote my favorite poet, "After all, it is you and I who are perfect, not the next world."

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mako View Post
    But to restate I still encourage you to keep asking questions. Keep asking why you believe, why you should or shouldn't believe, etc. And see where it leads you.

    A video of possible interest.
    Ok my brain hurts alittle from the video but it does make sence. I do try to question things when needed; I can thank the late George Carlin for that. I belive in his late HBO special he talks about how children need to be tought to question everthing instead of taking in everything as fact.

    I owe George alot because he was the one that explained religion in a way that I could understand and connect to. In my experiances I don't know if there is a god or a devil and if they do exist I don't think they are as what all of these bible thumpers say they are. I have turned to Wicca because so far it's the only religion that makes sence.

    Now, this could all be a bunch of bullshit but I will say that I do believe in someting being on the other side, I have seen and witnessed paranormal events. The one thing that has stricked my interest is that in all of the experiances i've seen if you hold up a bible or a crusifix the spirit will become angry and become overwelmed by it. So regaurdless of what is on the otherside from what I've seen there is someting that happends after we die.

  9. #9

    Default

    I would go with worshiping Satin, just like Son of Sam did. After awhile, you should hear him in your head, telling you who to kill and all that. After all, if good and evil don't really exist, if right and wrong is just an invention of superstitious man, what is everyone waiting for? Maybe you would like to have your way sexually with that sweet child who lives down the street. Why not, good and evil don't exist. There is no plan, no order, only chaos when our social behavior is based on socio convention, and believe me, convention can be changed. Look at World War II and the societies that changed the world.

    And then when you get to be an old man/woman, assuming you live that long, you can become terminally ill. What fun you will have gasping for those last breaths laying on your death bed, remembering fondly all the people you hurt. I would say innocent people, but there is no such thing as innocence in this world of godless chaos.

    Why if it was me....wait wait, my chest....oh my god....the pain...the blackness.....nothing....there is nothing.....(poof!)

    Okay, sorry, once again I'm being sarcastic, but if you are really choosing Satanism, come on! From early man, each tribe invented its rules to govern its social structure. If they didn't do this, they would have perished when climates changed, game became scarce, etc. They must have discovered that when one person hurt another, unjustified, that it hurt the whole tribe. One of the great treatise to governing with law was Hamurabi's Code. Even those people knew that in order for society to survive, there had to be a code of law that society was forced to follow. If you disagree with these accepted codes, go out into the wilderness with nothing but the clothes on your back, and see if you can survive. We survive as a collective unit, in part because we have intelligence.

    You can draw your own conclusions as to where that intelligence came from, but that is not what the thread asks. Before you embrace Satin, remember Dante's Inferno, and the Gates of Hell: "Ye who enter, abandon all Hope". Is that what you really want to do?

  10. #10
    Mako

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    Quote Originally Posted by Takashi View Post
    Ok my brain hurts alittle from the video but it does make sence. I do try to question things when needed; I can thank the late George Carlin for that. I belive in his late HBO special he talks about how children need to be tought to question everthing instead of taking in everything as fact.

    I owe George alot because he was the one that explained religion in a way that I could understand and connect to. In my experiances I don't know if there is a god or a devil and if they do exist I don't think they are as what all of these bible thumpers say they are. I have turned to Wicca because so far it's the only religion that makes sence.

    Now, this could all be a bunch of bullshit but I will say that I do believe in someting being on the other side, I have seen and witnessed paranormal events. The one thing that has stricked my interest is that in all of the experiances i've seen if you hold up a bible or a crusifix the spirit will become angry and become overwelmed by it. So regaurdless of what is on the otherside from what I've seen there is someting that happends after we die.
    I could go through my feelings on your super natural experiences. But I'm a bit lazy since discovering so many have explained my exact views in video. Here's a few that should hurt your head a lot less.

    Open-mindedness regarding the supernatural.
    Problem with anecdotes.


    And the one I feel most important for anyone.
    The instruction manual for life.

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