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Thread: A broader, spectrum...

  1. #11
    Marka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I am already in a similar position.
    As in...? You identify as a 'normal' cisgender; oppressed by the antics or semantics of Transgenderism? Or, you personally identify with some aspects of Transgenderism (you may-be or, are one); that you are having difficulty reconciling - either for yourself specifically and/or; with those who you co-relate or, interact with?


    This could all be true but you don't give any specific examples of violations. Without specifics it won't be possible to come to an agreement on possible solutions.
    With all due, respect... This isn't the "A scientific supernatural belief?", thread.

    Where, in your estimation; was it set-up, to require, any "specific examples of violations"?

    And... violations of what?

    And... specifics, of what?

    What is possible or, impossible... is yet to be proven - what is likely or probable; depends entirely on what actions are taken or, abated... And that, seems as dependent on your - willingness - to find a common ground; rather than dwell on acceptance, through the status-quo - first...

    And, pardon my audacity yet; I don't have any particular need, of agreement, per-si...

    It is my belief; that this/these issues are self-evident - *When- not viewed with any sort of superimposition of abject-fear - which I believe, in this instance; that your overtly binary, black/white, *scientific* - insistence (or, inflexibility); IS, coming out of fear - moreover any actual academic pursuit.

    Science addresses quite well; many of the whats, whens and, hows... It speaks nothing - of the whys of any Grand-Purpose - Science, is not the whys or, wise... though, it is otherwise quite practical in Physics and such...

    The issues with Transgender - IS that we're taking such issue with 'Transgender'; As though it were somehow it's own entire isolated entity, created and experienced in a compartmentalized-vacuum.

    The specifics, (from my perspective) is; that the lowest common-denominator - to all sub, marginalized, segregated, isolated, defined, etc - groups, is: {Directory:/Life/Human-life} - period. (really, just 'Life' yet; for the sake of this discussion, /Human-life).

    When (in my estimation)... that any human; treats any other human - as greater or, less-than Human (as greater or less-than; themselves)... it's inhumane - therein, lies the problem... Different or non-traditional; is not "the problem"

    That's what I have for now,
    -Marka

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marka View Post
    They, (we) need, to be allowed, all of the privilege and, the rights and, freedoms and, right-to-life {not, more or, less than}; of all-other-Citizens period.
    I'm sure the majority of the people in the U.S. would agree with that. I'm reasonably sure the majority of them also believe this is already the case, so there is no need to make any policy changes on behalf of transgenders. (I'm not saying this is my opinion) They are just people like everyone else, subject to the same rules and enjoying the same rights.


    Where, in your estimation; was it set-up, to require, any "specific examples of violations"?

    And... violations of what?

    And... specifics, of what?
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you have the opinion that rights are being violated. Everybody's entitled to their own opinion, so no problem there. The problem, as I see it, is that most people aren't convinced that rights are being violated. What may seem obvious to you may not be obvious to others.

    You say "I don't have any particular need of agreement, per-si...". If you are just venting your rage at the social injustice you perceive then, you're right, you don't need any agreement. But, if you want to see some kind of social change, you have to get society to agree that a change is needed, and that isn't easy. People need something more than complaints about how "any human; treats any other human". They need to see specific examples of individuals being mistreated in a way that calls for social intervention. This intervention would be in the form of changes in policies and laws.

  3. #13

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    I thought a long time about my reply to this thread. There is all sorts of stuff going about what being a boy is, what being a girl is, about frustration about the binary altogether. I struggled with accepting myself as a girl my whole life, and honestly I've yet to stop thinking about what truly means. What being a girl even means.

    We're all just trying to find our place in this world. Make sense of it and feel like we belong to it. It's a constant journey. Fighting expectations, sexism, unfair stereotyping. Changing our bodies sometimes in a way that makes us happy. There is way too much stumbling blocks in the way of it all. Too much focus on the expectations of others... even if it's impossible to truly escape that. It's natural to want to be understood. To play the game. The game isn't going away and the majority of the world isn't interested in changing the rules yet.

    So much stress. We all just deserve to be happy. To be ourselves. To take the time to truly think about what that is. To just live each day happy in our skin.

    Gender is complicated, human beings are complicated.

    Life is hard, but what makes it easier is supporting and love each other while we all take our own unique journey through it.

  4. #14
    Marka

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by gigglemuffinz View Post
    I thought a long time about my reply to this thread. [...]

    Life is hard, but what makes it easier is supporting and love each other while we all take our own unique journey through it.
    Blast from the past!! Welcome back, Gigglemuffinz!

    I think that if we could show the world - that these expectations and relative fears are the likely primary problems; that are being exploited for the power of the few - through what seems as by politics, religions and, resources/economic controls (fear -v- power)... we might better demonstrate that it isn't in the differences or the peculiarities - of individuals or smaller sub-groups - that genuinely divides us...


    {teleported from another thread}:


    Quote Originally Posted by LittleSissieJolie View Post
    [...] It's much similar to the stinky poo poo they are currently spouting about Transgender. So there's a bit of that sort of bigotry being encouraged and I won't feed that beast
    Indeed! And, thank you!

    For now,
    -Marka

  5. #15

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    I feel that Marka has summed up my thoughts on the transgender debate very well (and thoroughly!)

    My only point to make is how all the naysayers never stop to think that we are talking about a small percentage of people in a world that can be very hostile to new ideas. What does it matter if a few people want to break tradition and the norm by living their lives in a different way? I do wonder why those that claim to not understand what it means to be transgender feel it is their place to stamp their authority over the issue. I know nothing of medicine so would not tell a doctor how to treat patients. Why cant people who claim to be confused about transgender people just let them live their lives.

    Nobody can see inside another person and experience their feelings, thought, pain, happiness or needs. I trust people are able to make decisions about their own lives in whatever way makes them comfortable. If a person has an issue about how someone else lives their life that is on them and they have no right to preach. I feel that live and let live needs to come into play with this debate. The arguments that are used to put down the trans community are basically the same as the ones used fifty years ago against homosexuals. People need to be grown up about this and just accept that their are some people who find their brain and body do not see eye to eye.

    It makes very little difference to the masses if a small number of people need some understanding and have slightly different needs to others. It is not about taking away peoples identities or redefining gender, it is just that some people do not fit neatly into these traditional models and need others to make some reasonable adjustments. I do feel that if people are afraid or confused about trans people they need to go and meet some, speak with a trans charity or read the many blogs about their day to day lives. Just people, living a life.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotherFaith View Post
    It is not about taking away peoples identities or redefining gender, it is just that some people do not fit neatly into these traditional models and need others to make some reasonable adjustments.
    The question is - who gets to decide what is "reasonable"?

  7. #17
    Marka

    Default Let's be reasonable...



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    The question is - who gets to decide what is "reasonable"?
    Compassionate, fair and, reasonable people... Those who's concern for the well-being of others; meets or exceeds their own fears, of others...

    Drifter,

    I'm not sure if you're playing 'devil's advocate' or what you're intending to exercise, here...

    The bottom line to me seems to be... if the conservatives. who want less government; would govern themselves more aptly - we wouldn't need to be seeking things such-as; special-rights, affirmative-action, etc... We wouldn't need additional legislation, for something that's supposed to be practiced, anyway.

    However, because the basic constitutional-rights, laws and other means of protecting the citizens - are being arbitrarily and, conditionally ignored - it seems that we must over-emphasize the original laws; to include the specific terminology, of the various, minority groups. Whereupon, I reiterate; that no science, philosophy, theology or; anything beyond the basic rights - is needed or supposes any approval, to account for... that the human-personal life, is not first considered and - respected in kind...

    You figure out how we make "We the people..." mean something more than 'We' (most people - that are deemed worthy, when we feel like it.)... mean, all of the people... and, the majority if not the whole, of the problem - will likely be resolved...

    If you can't decide what is reasonable - for all of us... I'd like to give it, a-go...

    Breaking free of traditions; is not unreasonable...

    Citizens of a free-country - being in jeopardy of their physical lives - is not reasonable...

    I feel like you are playing a bit of cat & mouse, here... Why won't you declare a strong position; one way or the other, now?

    Your serve,
    -Marka

  8. #18

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    All my life I've had this mental disorder that causes me to look at social issues as if there are valid points to be made on all sides of any problem among groups of people. This, of course, is a very unpopular position, but I still believe it is true. I also believe that ignoring this fact is what leads to raising a minor, technical issue, such as who can use which toilet, to some grandiose level of philosophical discussion on good and evil or human rights. I love playing the philosophy game but I don't think abstract philosophy is the best tool to use to create specific laws. It's too broad and too cumbersome to work out details of policy, and it leads to accusing people with opposing opinions of being bigoted or brainwashed rather than seriously trying to understand their objections.

  9. #19
    Marka

    Default And the Golden-Rabbit award goes to...



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    All my life I've had [...] seriously trying to understand their objections.
    I don't know if you're being tongue-in-cheek or sarcastic, about having a mental disorder... from what I've observed about you - you seem to be quite competent and wholly functional... I do agree and believe for myself; that there are valid points to be made, on all sides... Though, the validity of the division; is what I question, most of all... And, the bigotry and brainwashing, from out-dated and, out-moded indoctrination (for example) is, a valid consideration, too!

    And, just about the time I'm ready to consider you, as a polarizing-antagonist... you pull a golden-rabbit out of your hat; and prove my assessment - quite incorrect... Your reply to TBC's divorce thread; is just such a feat (in my eyes)... You cover practical, pragmatic and, a compassionate and, caring open-hand, to someone that may feel like a fallen-hero or, failure... you speak from thoughtfulness and, a warm-heart... and, while there may be some philosophy, sprinkled in... it appears to be more for attenuation, than the primary platform...

    I myself, am something of a recovering philosopher... part of my annoyance, directed towards you - is as much, an annoyance of myself. If I understand you correctly; I agree that philosophy, is not particularly an appropriate adjunct - in the real-time, practical matters... And, it runs the risk of being something more as intellectual-masturbation - which I wouldn't think to condemn anyone for, on it's own, however; much like the literal-masturbation... there's a time, place and limit; for the appropriate use or employment, of such...

    Also, being in an unpopular position; does not make it wrong - even if, misunderstood...

    I wouldn't think to ask or demand that you change who you are... I would however ask; that you consider more carefully... where and when (in what contexts), that you level a full-scale philosophy, barrage...

    And, I offer up myself, willing to be subjected to thoughtful, mindful and, introspective; constructive-guidance, too... from you or, anyone else who's willing and able to put a significant degree of consideration, in expressing their own observations, of me...

    For everyone else and, the above... always, question me and, yourselves... How else would we find, what's really needed, now?

    My greatest respect and appreciation, (thank you!)
    -Marka

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    All my life I've had this mental disorder that causes me to look at social issues as if there are valid points to be made on all sides of any problem among groups of people. This, of course, is a very unpopular position, but I still believe it is true. I also believe that ignoring this fact is what leads to raising a minor, technical issue, such as who can use which toilet, to some grandiose level of philosophical discussion on good and evil or human rights. I love playing the philosophy game but I don't think abstract philosophy is the best tool to use to create specific laws. It's too broad and too cumbersome to work out details of policy, and it leads to accusing people with opposing opinions of being bigoted or brainwashed rather than seriously trying to understand their objections.
    I'm 100% willing to consider the opposing viewpoints and honestly I love people, but when people's "objections" are that you don't deserve respect, your identity isn't valid, and that comes with purposefully demeaning and insulting remarks and implications, they aren't owed anything. I always try to be the bigger person and reason with people or just say 'I'm sorry you feel that way." and move on but they aren't owed that. I choose to do that.

    And there isn't always a "valid" position on the other side. Sometimes there is just hate or fear. They can not be an evil person, their hate can even be understood due to their upbringing and life up to that point, they can even be talked to with respect still.. but it doesn't mean their points have to be debated with and it doesn't mean that people's anger towards them isn't valid. People are capable of biogtry, everyone one of us, to ignore that is dangerous because then you won't be able to see it in yourself.

    Also, what can seem like a minor, "technical" issue to you can be a much bigger deal to other people. It is about something more. It is, was, a and can be about someones entire identity being respected, their gender and who they are being valid. You could do well to consider that, if you truly consider yourself someone who sees the valid point on both sides.
    Last edited by gigglemuffinz; 15-Jan-2018 at 16:15.

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