Any electrocutions in the house? I have an electricity question

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gnd567

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I have an electrical question and hope someone could help because I know nothing about this sort of thing.

I'm a professional guitarist and one of my main pieces of gear died, an old 70s tape-echo. Anyway, they were made in the UK and mine was one of the export models made for the US so it runs on normal US 110v power.

Anyway, since mine died, I had to find a replacement but the only one that I found that was in mint shape was a UK 220-240V model. I bought it anyway.
I also purchased a 500watt step up-step down transformer. My question is, will using it to power my British-made device be too much and trip the breaker? I can't afford to be tripping breakers at every gig because of my equipment.

I must admit I'm a little afraid to try it when it arrives because I don't want to ruin the machine or worse, electrocute myself. Any help would be much appreciated.
 
I agree with Note, it shouldn't trip the breaker, and the difference between the 50Hz and 60Hz isn't going to affect an older analog device.
 
We'd need the full details of the device to give a good answer (make, model, input voltage, operating voltage, wattage, etc).
Googling 'using UK electricals in us' should give you more of an insight.
But, don't fret, yet: you may be able to just fit a US spec transformer.
 
willnotwill said:
I agree with Note, it shouldn't trip the breaker, and the difference between the 50Hz and 60Hz isn't going to affect an older analog device.
I should mention it has a motor. Will that be effected by the 50Hz/60Hz difference?
 
You might find the motors will be different (or possibly just the pinion size of the motor) and you might also find that everything except the input transformer will be identical so if your "dead" one's transformer is OK you've got the makings of a fully working US-Spec unit there. You might even find the transformer is the same but tapped/wired differently but that would be fairly unlikely.

If nothing else, keep the old one as spares as I doubt much of the important stuff will be different between the two.

If you can find service manuals they'll likely tell you the parts list and which bits were fitted for which countries.
 
I've never used one of these step-down transformers, but you need to check what that 500W relates to? Is it definitely the maximum output (not input) of the transformer, and is that at 230 volts?

If so, then you want to make sure the echo machine doesn't draw more than 500W of power. It may well have the power rating ("wattage") printed on it somewhere. If you draw more than 500W, you'll probably blow a fuse in the transformer (or break it) rather than trip anything in your domestic electrical supply.

Five hundred watts is a fair bit. Is it an enormous device, much bigger than a desktop PC? Is it noisy (with cooling fans, etc.), does it get hot in use? If not, I'd be amazed if it came close to drawing 500W (although I'm not familiar with these devices).

P=IV, so 500W of power at 230V, so that's about 2.1A. Your domestic supply will be capable of supplying much more than that. My small house has a 30A fuse for the main electrical socket ring. The circuit-breaker probably has the maximum current rating (in amps) stamped on it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/science/add_aqa/electricity/chargepowerrev3.shtml

Hope this helps :)

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gnd567 said:
I should mention it has a motor. Will that be effected by the 50Hz/60Hz difference?

I *think* so. It sounds like it might cause the motor to run at the wrong speed, causing a difference in pitch.

Drive motors for many record players, electric clocks, tape recorders, tone-wheel organs, and other such devices will cause the devices to run at the wrong speed. It will change the operating speed and the pitch of any music.

http://www.frequencyconverter.net/convert-60hz-110v-120v-to-50hz-220v-230v-240v.html

As I say, I'm not familiar with any of these devices, but it looks like they do make transformers that can convert 115V/60Hz to 230V/50Hz. That thing looks like it must be pretty expensive, though. :-(
 
The difference in mains frequency is mostly what predominated each country when that was standardized. Most devices won't respond differently. Most international universal power adapters are nothing more than 1:2 transformers (more expensive models have some form of passive conditioning/surge protection).

Now for most American power systems each circuit branch is behind either a 15A or 20A breaker/fuse. Using P = I*V we plug in our numbers P = 15 * 120 --or-- P = 20 * 120 and you get P = 1800W --or-- 2400W (per circuit leg, NOT outlet) respectively. That is a lot of power and as you can imagine takes quite the cable that even the most demanding of consumer grade equipment might come close to needing.

Alternatively you could just wire up a 220 circuit if you have room in your breaker box.
 
Depends on what kind of motor it is. Some don't care about line frequency. Others will run at the wrong speed or potentially overheat.

I'd be very careful connecting (an especially older) UK appliance to a US 240V circuit. Neither leg in a US 240V circuit is grounded. It is in a UK 240V. The converision transformers take that into account.
 
I'm an electrocution(er). Actually electrical engineer, so close enough I guess.

Generally speaking, motors will not be greatly affected by the difference in 50-60 hertz, even the same with 208-240 volts. They will run, just not as efficient as they are supoosed to. They won't just burn out right away either (though will have shorter lives before eventually burning out).

The same with older analog devices too. The step up booster you have is likely just a straight 2:1 voltage converter. (Unless you paid a whole lot for it). They don't care about hertz, whatever goes in is just what will come out. My guess, you'll be just fine on the power draw side of things.

Electronics though, especially newer ones (and more so for computers) will not handle a 50-60 hertz difference very well. You probably won't trip a breaker, but you will fry a device like that.

This is where your real concern should be. If your new-to-you device (tape-echo?) has a lot of electronics to it, then it may be one zzzzt away from a fire hazard. Older electronics had unreliable power grids though, they were built more robust and even capable of handling a drop or increase in hertz. So who knows...

My recommendation. Get a fire extinguisher (for electrical fires). Hook it up outside and drop a few notes to thuroughly test it out first. If it works once with no problems, chances are favorable for you thereafter. (Though bring the extinguisher along with your performances, for safety)
 
Slomo said:
I'm an electrocution(er). Actually electrical engineer, so close enough I guess.

Generally speaking, motors will not be greatly affected by the difference in 50-60 hertz, even the same with 208-240 volts. They will run, just not as efficient as they are supoosed to. They won't just burn out right away either (though will have shorter lives before eventually burning out).

The same with older analog devices too. The step up booster you have is likely just a straight 2:1 voltage converter. (Unless you paid a whole lot for it). They don't care about hertz, whatever goes in is just what will come out. My guess, you'll be just fine on the power draw side of things.

Electronics though, especially newer ones (and more so for computers) will not handle a 50-60 hertz difference very well. You probably won't trip a breaker, but you will fry a device like that.

This is where your real concern should be. If your new-to-you device (tape-echo?) has a lot of electronics to it, then it may be one zzzzt away from a fire hazard. Older electronics had unreliable power grids though, they were built more robust and even capable of handling a drop or increase in hertz. So who knows...

My recommendation. Get a fire extinguisher (for electrical fires). Hook it up outside and drop a few notes to thuroughly test it out first. If it works once with no problems, chances are favorable for you thereafter. (Though bring the extinguisher along with your performances, for safety)

Fire extinguisher? This is starting to scare me a little. I'm taking the old one to the shop and hopefully can get it fixed and maybe not use the "new" one unless I have to. I probably should've held out until another American unit turned up online but there weren't any anywhere and this one is in good shape which is so uncommon with these things because they're not that road worthy. It'll be another week or so before it shows up and when it does I'm gonna go outside (with a fire extinguisher I guess) and cross my fingers and pray that nothing blows up. I paid $600 plus $95 shipping to get it here from the Netherlands. Here's hoping all goes well.
 
gnd567 said:
I should mention it has a motor. Will that be effected by the 50Hz/60Hz difference?

Remember history of some rockers with their Hamond. In Europe (where's 50 Hz) keyboard playing was a few downfiled to the left, because Hamond modulator was based in derivationof general frecuency.

European motors in US (depending of which type of motor is) can run faster.

This happens if your're using simply trasformation 1:2 (230/115 V.) But sure exists some device with electronic convertor, which is converting 115/60 into 230/50 or another device which is inverted. Question too search it.

Andf as it was said before, make sure your converter or trasformator has enough Ampers to satisface your device. If your device is about 500W, so in 230 V it's about 2 A. Converter or transformator has to be with higher Ampers.
 
I see these exact power transformers being sold with these old tape units so I guess it'll be ok. I Know that 500W is plenty enough for this small device but it's mainly the motor that concerns me because A: I don't burn it up and B: if it runs at a different speed, it won't sound right, thus defeating the purpuse of being it and since I can't return it, I'll be out $700 and since it's a piece of gear that I need in order to do my job, I'm kinda hoping all goes well. We'll see next week when it gets here I guess.
 
gnd567 said:
I see these exact power transformers being sold with these old tape units so I guess it'll be ok. I Know that 500W is plenty enough for this small device but it's mainly the motor that concerns me because A: I don't burn it up and B: if it runs at a different speed, it won't sound right, thus defeating the purpuse of being it and since I can't return it, I'll be out $700 and since it's a piece of gear that I need in order to do my job, I'm kinda hoping all goes well. We'll see next week when it gets here I guess.
like i said, "don't fret" (the original pun was unintended; well, i have been ill), for there are ways and means, if needed.
if you google 'tape echo circuit' you'll find lots of other good stuff. it's been years since i last messed about with analogue audio, so it's been quite nice for me to look at stuff, and which also had me wondering why you're using vintage gear when you can buy or make something modern for much, much less? (although, that's none of my plucking business, i know). and, yes, make: back in the day, many an aspiring guitarist would make inroads into amateur electronics by learning how to make or fix their own gear.

power: this, http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/britamps/selmer/schematic/swiss6a.jpg came up on google image and this bit (circled-ish),
swiss6a Standard e-mail view.jpg

is the power supply cicuit. if you can see on the original (link), even older gear can have a wide input voltage range, starting at 110v in the device shown.
the rest of the device should be working on smoothed DC (see the rectifier and smoothing circuit) with any needed AC then being made from the DC.
motor speed shouldn't be an issue as you'll be playing back your own recording, so it'll all be done at the same speed. tape speed is always a bit of a compromise between sound quality and tape length (the tape length so determining size and weight [of reel or cassette], which then determines the size, weight and needed powering of the device).
many later motors had speed adjustment built-in (usually adjusted by a nylon screwhead in the motor's body), but like a lot of early equipment, you'll probably find some manner of speed adjustment nearby the motor. the speed is set in the factory, using test equipment, but the real world speeds of tape machines often varied from brand-to-brand and machine-to-machine. setting one up yourself is just a simple of having a known length recording and a stopwatch. oh, and a screwdriver/pot-adjuster, of course :biggrin:

you never said how your old machine died. given the ages of such machines, it may be worth rebuilding their power supplies as older power supplies often bit the dust. most components are available for pence/cents, with the transformer usually being the costliest component.

as for standing by with a fire extinguisher: better with some dynamite, like Red Adair :biggrin:

and besides all that, where's Analog? this is his speciality!
 
ade said:
like i said, "don't fret" (the original pun was unintended; well, i have been ill), for there are ways and means, if needed.
if you google 'tape echo circuit' you'll find lots of other good stuff. it's been years since i last messed about with analogue audio, so it's been quite nice for me to look at stuff, and which also had me wondering why you're using vintage gear when you can buy or make something modern for much, much less? (although, that's none of my plucking business, i know). and, yes, make: back in the day, many an aspiring guitarist would make inroads into amateur electronics by learning how to make or fix their own gear.

power: this, http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/britamps/selmer/schematic/swiss6a.jpg came up on google image and this bit (circled-ish),
View attachment 29939

is the power supply cicuit. if you can see on the original (link), even older gear can have a wide input voltage range, starting at 110v in the device shown.
the rest of the device should be working on smoothed DC (see the rectifier and smoothing circuit) with any needed AC then being made from the DC.
motor speed shouldn't be an issue as you'll be playing back your own recording, so it'll all be done at the same speed. tape speed is always a bit of a compromise between sound quality and tape length (the tape length so determining size and weight [of reel or cassette], which then determines the size, weight and needed powering of the device).
many later motors had speed adjustment built-in (usually adjusted by a nylon screwhead in the motor's body), but like a lot of early equipment, you'll probably find some manner of speed adjustment nearby the motor. the speed is set in the factory, using test equipment, but the real world speeds of tape machines often varied from brand-to-brand and machine-to-machine. setting one up yourself is just a simple of having a known length recording and a stopwatch. oh, and a screwdriver/pot-adjuster, of course :biggrin:

you never said how your old machine died. given the ages of such machines, it may be worth rebuilding their power supplies as older power supplies often bit the dust. most components are available for pence/cents, with the transformer usually being the costliest component.

as for standing by with a fire extinguisher: better with some dynamite, like Red Adair :biggrin:

and besides all that, where's Analog? this is his speciality!

Thanks for the info. Makes me feel like things will probably work just fine. And yeah, a few people have asked me why I use old, analog gear when I could get new equipment that pretty much does the same thing and my reason is simple: tone and feel. Mostly feel. I'm visually impaired so sound and feel matter more to me than most I suppose. I'm very picky about my sound and while digital technology has come a long way, you just can't quite replicate the organic sound and feel that a tape-echo or tube-driven amplifiers create.
 
There is no such thing as an "electrocutioner" electrocution is the act of getting shocked. The proper term is "electrician".
 
Sorry to be blunt but slomo is totally wrong about any danger with 50/60 hz especially in something old and analogue.

The worst that's likely to happen with the wrong frequency is the motor will run 20% too fast.

Almost NOTHING cares about 50/60 hz as almost everything converts the AC mains to much much lower DC voltages before doing anything and it's incredibly rare for anything other than ancient CRT TV's or AC motors to sync with the mains frequency.
 
Remeber this (jpg dowloaded from etsy.com) old piece:
il_570xN.649084529_98cb.jpg

I used it with some metalheads as soun master to record their music and after that put it into CD, around year 2000. I recorded with those Panasonic and in the same time with cassete. I made two editions, but that one from Panasonic was three levels better. My friends asked "Where are you going with this trash from museum ?" That Panasonic was made with select switch 115/230 V. And there wasn't any nylon etc., it was made in base of cogwheels. Nylon was used only for rewind.
 
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I thought the correct term was electrician.
 
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