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Thread: Charlottesville -The Aftermath

  1. #1

    Default Charlottesville -The Aftermath

    So I'm wondering how people are feeling about the recent events in Seattle.

    What happened
    White neo-nazis poured through the city of Charlottesville to protest plans to remove the statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee. Hundreds of white nationalists marched through the University of Virginia campus carrying torches. The event was plannned months in advance and well promoted, and counter demonstrations were organized as an opposing voice. Violence erupted with street brawls and clashes between the two groups. A state of emergency and polide in riot gear ordered people out.

    It's believed to be the largest gathering of it's kind, including neo-nazis, skinheads and the KKK.

    One woman was killed when a car rammed through a street filled with peaceful protesters. Nineteen people were injured and a 32 year old woman was killed. The driver, a neo-nazi was charged with second degree murder.

    Reactions
    While many of the community and political leaders came out strongly condemning racism, neo-nazis and the KKK, President Trump's words were decidely more muted, calling it an "egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides... on many sides."

    The Mayor of Charlottesville said he blamed the nation's inceasing political division "at the doorstep and the people around the president."

    One Republican Senator, Cory Gardner, said on Twitter "Mr. President, we must call evil by its name. These are white supremacists and this was domestic terrorism."

    A white supremacist website that promoted the demonstration, The Daily Stormer, praised Trump's response. A post on their websiste says: "Nothing specific against us. No condemnation at all. When asked to condemn, he just walked out of the room. Really, really good. God bless him."

    It wasn't until two full days later that Trump decried white supremacists and the KKK and other hate groups. Many feel that it was too little too late, disengenuous, and that he demonstrated a noticeable reluctance to condemn them.

    White power groups on Monday say they are planning more demonstrations in the upcoming months in Virginia and Texas and minority groups say the need and expect more from their leaders than hollow words.

    Derrick Johnson, interim national president of the NAACP, said that if Trump is serious about fighting racism, he needs to get rid of the white nationalists in his administration, such as Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller.


    Some Thoughts
    To me it seems ludicrous to say that the violence was a result of the behavior "of many sides." When you see the video of the car ramming into a group of peacful protesters, driven by a neo-nazi, there is only one side. It's comparable to saying that the violence of World War Two was caused by many sides.

    https://youtu.be/OieWBuIyXmA

    I believe Trump was unwilling to condemn white supremicists since they were supportive of him during his campaign, during which time Trump was endorsed by the KKK. However, in the days and months ahead, as much as it may be convenient to blame Trump for racism in the US, I think it is a more endemic issue. None of our countries are immune from the threat of rising racist tensions in our countries. Trump was right when he said that racism existed before him and before Obama. Trump simply capitilized on it to help propel him to power. It's unfortunate the ethnic groups do not have stronger, more effective leader.

  2. #2

    Default

    The NAZI's used to march in Skokie (Chicago suburb, a well known Jewish enclave) now and then to try and provoke something. They were mostly ignored.

    I do think the President was right in saying there was plenty of blame to go around. It takes two to tango, in this case three. The State of Virginia played a part as well with their politically correct actions regarding historical figures and 150 year old events. Naturally, all the PC politicians leap out of the woodwork to do the politically correct thing to denounce anyone and everything not deemed politically correct enough.

    Not sure when the law was passed requiring a President to denounce an event or group he had nothing to do with.

    Edit: As far as the nimrod involved in vehicular homicide, I almost regard him as a fourth party. Maybe a fifth or sixth if you include the nimrods in charge of Facebook and Twitter. I'm rapidly putting social media in a category with cell phones and 'right turn on red'. Brilliant ideas in their conception, worst idea ever in practice.

  3. #3
    MassIncon

    Default

    I think trying to scrub history is disgusting. I support people's rights to assemble even if I don't agree with their message.

    Ramming a car through a crowd is just sick though.

    These white nationalist groups are essentially doing the same thing the BLM groups did: hold ridiculous and disruptive protests to further their nonsense cause. I support both groups' rights to do so despite the fact that i agree with neither group's agenda. In any case, it ceases to be a protest when people start getting killed and hurt and when it esclates to that point I'm all for the police to roll tanks and break out the water cannons, pepper spray, and rubber bullets.

  4. #4

    Default

    Fascism disgusts me, and so do Neo Nazi's. They can call themselves whatever they wish too but it doesn't change that they're Nazi's.

    However I will say this. I'm sick of everyone trying to white wash history. We don't need to take down statues, we don't need to remove names from textbooks, or take down museum exhibits. Everyone can argue this and that about it but censoring history is wrong.

  5. #5

    Default

    As the saying goes, "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Regardless of country, I think we all want to see the next generation taught about our accomplishments and our shames. I don't think we should censor our blemished pasts, but that doesn't necessarily imply erecting and maintaining statues to commemorate them either.

  6. #6

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by SnowBlitz View Post
    [...]

    However I will say this. I'm sick of everyone trying to white wash history. We don't need to take down statues, we don't need to remove names from textbooks, or take down museum exhibits. Everyone can argue this and that about it but censoring history is wrong.
    One question that comes to my mind though... is removing a statue of a formerly, widely heralded figure... that may no longer represent best practices or greater role-modeling... censorship?

    To the best of my understanding, we're not removing this historical figure from the books... we're just taking the representation of what was then considered a great figure and, removing it from the intended fair and peaceful, public domain...

    It's neither a free-speech nor a censorship issue... you can go to virtually any library (or search engine) to see and read about that and many other historic figures...

    On a separate issue from the statue removal...
    I do agree with you that historical accounting, should not be altered though, we have to consider that for political and other contextual variances... Any number of things, may have been inaccurately recorded in the first place...

    Things from propaganda to lack of bigger or better perspectives have their bent in recorded history...

    I don't see that it's a matter of being PC either not, that there isn't any political posturing involved just; that removal of a symbol of inhumanity, is generally best for the over-all well-being...

    We shouldn't 'forget' yet, we probably don't need it in our faces anymore either...

    Followers and patriots of the general in question - are not out anything except perhaps, their pride...

    If the Confederates and their sympathizer's beliefs, are true and good to them - nothing in evidence has changed that. If it was only based on idols, icons and, symbols however - I dare say, there was feeble ground to stand on...

    Perhaps, we simply do need to move the definition and parameters of free-speech (press) and, individual expression, to dedicated, non-public venues and put a moratorium on the more insightful public venues... at some point in time, we either have to do something different or, settle-up with 'this is how it is'...

    Apparently, we've not learned all that much from history... as we seem to be repeating it...

    If we could just get around that instinctual lizard-brain reaction... the strides we would make... and yet - we seem only to provoke it more and more... giving the conscious mind, little chance to intervene...

    We pack on more mass while we continue to accelerate, towards the ever thickening brick-wall... I wonder what will happen...

    We'll probably be okay or, we can just ignore it... I'm sure that'll work...

  7. #7

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Starrunner View Post
    As the saying goes,"those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Regardless of country, I think we all want to see the next generation taught about our accomplishments and our shames. I don't think we should censor our blemished pasts, but that doesn't necessarily imply erecting and maintaining statues to commemorate them either.
    Removing them has a bit too much of a Fahrenheit 451 feel to suit me. Traitor or Patriot, Robert E. Lee is about as significant as anyone in American history. George Washington owned slaves. Quick, lets burn all those $1 bills and melt down all those quarters.

    There are plenty of historical figures who might look plenty different depending on your era and perspective. There's still no denying they left their mark on us and on history, sometimes quite literally, as in the number of people who can directly trace their y-chromosome directly back to Ghengis Khan.

    Adolf Hitler looks like a slacker compared to a lot of historical figures with "Great" appended to their names in history books, if you compare ferocity, ruthlessness, genocide, and body counts relative to total population.

    I'm going to once again recommend Dan Carlin's series of podcasts http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/ for a perspective on great historical figures of the past, and their accomplishments vs. some of the brutal and horrible means they used to achieve them. Specifically, the King of Kings series, although the others are excellent as well. I think Robert E. Lee comes up as rather benign when you compare him to the likes of Alexander the Great or Xerxes.

  8. #8

    Default

    I was not aware until a few hours ago that the "trigger" to the Charlotte incident was based on the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee.

    Is the removal of his statue an act of "big brother" to rewrite history?

    I look at several other situations and something that was said at an "Indian Memorial Service" comes to mind.

    "There is three parts to history the winning side, the losing side, and the side of "understanding of the situation""

    In the UNITED States of America The civil war is a tragedy that brought about The UNION of the states and end of the Confederate regime.

    In the Southern USA the Standing up for "State Rights" and independence is a point of "PRIDE".

    As the "Big Brother" Political Correctness of diversity and minority suppression is over come (not sure of a better term to use) the symbols of that era are removed.

    I am not wanting to argue right or wrong, Democrat or Republican, Right or Left. But I do want to question the winner, the loser, and the situation.

    I compare to statues Robert E. Lee and George Washington.

    Do we remove one because it is a statue of a Trader and leader of a revolt from an "oppressive" government regime?

    The case for this stands at the feet of both statues. One was the "winning leader" and the other was the "losing leader"

    Just some food for thought.

  9. #9

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Maxx View Post
    Traitor or Patriot, Robert E. Lee is about as significant as anyone in American history.
    The most important figures of the 20th century in my parents' part of eastern Europe where Hitler and Stalin, followed by Lenin. There is a reason there were large crowds celebrating when statues of those individuals were torn down. We don't honor people because they were merely significant.



    Specifically, the King of Kings series, although the others are excellent as well. I think Robert E. Lee comes up as rather benign when you compare him to the likes of Alexander the Great or Xerxes.
    That doesn't matter. If the local population decides they do not want to honor someone anymore, they can tear down the statue. Most of these are merely a revanchist way of sticking it to the northern yankees after Reconstruction was subverted.

  10. #10

    Default

    It seems to me like this could have been avoided had so many Southern states not made removing Confederate monuments illegal at the State level. It should be up a neighborhood what statues should stand which should go. Southern conservatives decided that the short term gain of keeping their little piece of the past was worth the inevitable blow back.

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