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Thread: Why I do not call myself a feminist

  1. #1
    MarchinBunny

    Default Why I do not call myself a feminist

    I had a bit of a conversation with Starrunner, and I didn't want to go too off topic on the other thread. But I did want to explain why I, personally do not call myself a feminist and why I see the movement today as a joke. I linked tons of sources for many things I say and show. And with how long this turned out, this isn't even close to everything. The list of reasons I am not a feminist is far from exausted. But this is already long enough. I am also curious to hear others views on the movement and what they think.

    Anyway, let's get started :P

    So the past 10 or so years the feminist movement I would have to say has been quite prominent in media more than it ever has been. For most people who don’t follow around the movement like a hawk like I do, would think this is a great thing. We need more equality … right? Well, I certainly would agree with you on that, but does feminism? You are probably a bit confused at the moment because I am betting you are thinking right now that I contradicted myself. Look, the dictionary says feminism is for equality. Yes, I agree with you there as well, but just because the dictionary definition says so, doesn’t mean that is what we see in the actual movement itself.

    How did someone like me, who is on the left and wants equality for all, end up being anti-feminist?
    Well, let’s take a look at the reality of the situation and see what feminism is currently contributing to today’s world and society here in the west. Let’s take a stroll through why the word feminism has become synonymous with man hating and why only about 20%[ http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com...0411122013.pdf, https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/cho...ines__2_.0.pdf ] of people in America would identify as a feminist.

    Man Hating

    Now a lot of feminists will try to tell you that feminism is about equality of both sexes but, more often than not we see those who lead the pack trying to minimize men issues and they will even often go as far as to claim they are women issues and not a men issues. That the reason men have issues is due to the “patriarchy.”

    There are even commercials with feminist agenda’s that show the sort of hate and callousness they have toward men. Whether it’s telling women to no longer be polite toward men just to make a statement, or to apologize to a mother for a baby being born a boy.[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p73-30lE-XE, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3po2gq0WAI, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUGfAMBgxOE ] If any of these things were done in reverse toward women by men, it would be a shit storm. But hey … equality! … right? Oh … wait, yaa maybe not so much. Then, to top it all off, an article is written telling men it’s not sexist because apparently men don’t know what everyday sexism looks like.[ http://www.salon.com/2015/02/02/sorr...d_isnt_sexist/ ] This is essentially an article stating, sexism against women is worse and thus sexism against men doesn’t matter to the point it shouldn’t even be called sexist.

    Moving onto a little bit on the social media trends, how about that hashtag that once spread around? What was it again? Oh … right #killallmen.[ http://www.salon.com/2013/05/07/twit...nd_killallmen/ ] If you are a movement for equality does it not stand to reason that this sort of behavior is quite the opposite of what one would expect? The you have images of feminists wearing shirts saying “I bath in male tears” or drinking from mugs that say “male tears.” Again, this isn’t the sort of thing I expect from a movement that claims they are for equality. Then you will have the feminists say “Not all feminists” or “They are not really feminists.” Then may I ask, why the hell are you not upset by the things these people are doing to harm your movement? How come you are not as pissed as me about it? How come you just sit there, and not seem to care as they make a mockery of the movement you stick up for?

    What about Hilary Clinton, someone who holds quite a lot of power? What does she think about men? Well, let’s quote something she said “Women have always been the primary victims of war.”[ https://clinton3.nara.gov/WH/EOP/Fir.../19981117.html ] Oh right, because fuck all the men who are losing their lives. Women are the primary victims apparently. Is it just me, or does she seem to see men as expendable?

    We also have a humanities text book teaching that men cannot be targets of sexism. Again, explain to me how this is equality? I am having quite a hard time seeing it.[ http://www.titleixforall.com/humanit...s-experiences/ ]

    The Patriarchy

    So what exactly is the patriarchy? Ask a feminist, and get a different answer depending on who it is. They claim it’s all around us. It’s certainly not the patriarchy we look up in the dictionary, because if we were to use the dictionary definition, we most certainly could not say we live in a patriarchy here in the west.[ https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/patriarchy ]

    I do believe according to many feminists you will get a definition that more resembles something along the lines of societal standards that benefit men and oppress women. And yet, why exactly is it that men seem to be getting the short end of the stick when it comes to things like alimony? How about child support and custody? What about jail time? Men will face 60% more jail time for the same crime committed than a women.[ https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/patriarchy ] Men are 99% of all combat deaths and casualties. By law men are required to register for selective services, women are not. 94% of industrial deaths and accidents are men according to NIOSH. 76% of homicides and 80% of suicides are men. Women receive custody 84% of the time in child court cases.[ https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/patriarchy ] 30% of those named as fathers*are bilked of child support unjustly.[ http://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34861/ ]

    A mans livelihood is entirely destroyed if he is falsely accused of rape. Women who falsely accuse are rarely prosecuted and when they are it’s usually a misdemeanor. 1 in 3 women face domestic violence but it’s rarely ever talked about or taken seriously that 1 in 4 men face domestic violence. In fact, men are typically turned away from shelters. Men are more likely to be the ones arrested in domestic violent cases. Men experience systematic discrimination in parenting, domestic violence policies, education, criminal sentencing, paternity, forced labor, military conscription, public health policies, genital integrity, false accusations, reproductive rights, portrayal by the media and in the coverage of their issues by the news media.

    So where exactly is this patriarchy that benefits men when it comes to all these issues? Where are the feminists tackling these issues or bringing them up? Why is it feminists always seem to rally up, scream and shout, insult and try to silence when men try to speak? Why do they claim all men’s rights groups are hate groups?[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0 ] There was a documentary created by a known feminist called “The Red Pill.[ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLzeakKC6fE, http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3686998/ ] She comes out of it no longer calling herself a feminist and the feminists try to silence it and petition it from being shown in theaters.[ https://www.change.org/p/palace-cine...-red-pill-film ] They make tons of false claims on what the documentary is about. Making insults and accusations against those involved. If your movement is just and right, then why must you silence your opposition? Why must you spread lies and hate? How is this equality?

    I do suggest the documentary “The Red Pill” to anyone here. It’s quite eye opening and very informative.

    The patriarchy doesn’t exist in the western world. There is oppression on both sides, just different types of oppression. We cannot begin making progress if we only focus on one side of the issue. If we want equality we need to start looking at things in a equal manner.

    The Wage Gap

    Now this may come as a shock, but the wage gap that is often cited by feminists stating women make seventy-seven cents for every dollar a man makes and that it is somehow due to sexism is entirely bullshit. The wage gap that is often cited is just the average of what men and women make full time in a year. It doesn’t take into account for anything else, not even identical work.

    Some estimates show 50% of the gap exists is due to men and women are working in vastly different industries and occupations. Another reason the gap exists is due to women working less hours than men, 35 minutes less per day than men. The truth is there are so many things that are not accounted for. About 40% of the gap still exists even after you account for some of these factors, but there is no way we can say any gap is due to sexism. It’s more along the lines of, we don’t fully know nor can we likely ever since there are just too many factors when it comes to this gap.[ https://pastebin.com/FNHjaQMv - This is a list of sources.
    ]
    Last edited by MarchinBunny; 05-May-2017 at 01:06.

  2. #2

    Default

    The wage gap is real. Plenty of women with the same job get paid less than men. But fortunately, it is improving and will hopefully no longer be an issue someday.

  3. #3
    MarchinBunny

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by ShippoFox View Post
    The wage gap is real. Plenty of women with the same job get paid less than men. But fortunately, it is improving and will hopefully no longer be an issue someday.
    Source? Also .. if you can debunk all the sources in the list while you are at it.

    Edit: BTW did you know it's already against the law to pay women less simply because she is a woman?

  4. #4

    Default

    Mostly anecdotal, but i will post something if i find it. Also, corporations love loopholes.

    Update: search Google for "can companies pay women less usa"... That's the USA anyway. Tons of results. Recent ones too.

    It's probably much, much better in Canada for wage equality.

  5. #5
    MarchinBunny

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by ShippoFox View Post
    Mostly anecdotal, but i will post something if i find it. Also, corporations love loopholes.
    See the issue here is we are talking about the 77 cents for every dollar a man makes. You might be able to find a woman who makes less than a man working the same job, but you can also find women making more than a men for the same job too. What you would have to prove is that the difference was down to sexism. I really don't know how you could do that. There isn't any proof as far as I am aware that exists that shows it's due to sexism and not some sort of other factor.

    If it was true there was discrimination going on here, I would have an issue with it just as much as anyone. But the claim simply isn't based on truth, certainly not based on any actual data as far as I can see.



    Update: search Google for "can companies pay women less usa"... That's the USA anyway. Tons of results. Recent ones too.

    It's probably much, much better in Canada for wage equality.
    I don't think that really proves anything. Gonna have to be more specific.

    Edit: Also do keep in mind this thread is about feminism as a whole. The wage gap is only a single portion of one of my points.

  6. #6

    Default



    I don't think that really proves anything. Gonna have to be more specific.
    Okay, here's one of the articles...

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html

    It's basically an excuse that can be used to pay women less. I think i can see ways that, in some rare cases, it could even be used against men too.

    I'm not really sure whether I even want to go near the other portions of the debate. Just wages.

  7. #7
    MarchinBunny

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by ShippoFox View Post
    Okay, here's one of the articles...

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...427-story.html

    It's basically an excuse that can be used to pay women less. I think i can see ways that, in some rare cases, it could even be used against men too.

    I'm not really sure whether I really want to go near the other portions of the debate. Just wages.
    Ya, that article isn't a women issue. They just paint it that way. It affects men too, so I don't understand the issue there. To say it's used as an excuse to pay women less doesn't really explain why she was making less to begin with. I think it's normal for a company to look at previous work history.

    If companies really were looking to pay women less, why wouldn't they be looking to hire only women? If it would save them money ... I don't see a reason why they hire men at that point.

    Also, the article says it's discriminatory "because the differences were almost certainly the result of gender bias." ... It's sort of funny how they can just assume that the difference in previous earning was due to gender bias and not anything else.

  8. #8

    Default

    1.)Your Red Pill link is dead for the change.org.

    2). It is never good practice to quote the dictionary to make an argument. I did it once and my professor called me a fool.

    3.) You come off strongly as a Red Piller/FEMRA. I honestly don't care if you are, just pointing that out.

    4.) Don't regurgitate factoids and soundbites and quote the likes of Salon. Make your own argument through a reasoned discussion with your own words. Show the logic. Show the myriad double standards if there are and why.

  9. #9
    MarchinBunny

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Geno View Post
    1.)Your Red Pill link is dead for the change.org.
    Fixed



    2). It is never good practice to quote the dictionary to make an argument. I did it once and my professor called me a fool.
    I didn't use it to make a point actually, maybe you should read it again. What I did do was use it to show that isn't the definition feminists follow.



    3.) You come off strongly as a Red Piller/FEMRA. I honestly don't care if you are, just pointing that out.
    Why? Just because I set forth some reasons I am not a feminist? Can you point out anything in my arguments that you have an issue with? Cause all it seems like right now is you are pretty much not saying a whole heck of a lot, which is really sad considering your position here, adisc content editor.

    Edit x2: No, I am not a red piller just because I happened to point out where men are disadvantaged. I ever state both genders are oppressed in some way. It's not like I am saying women are not oppressed in anyway. I am pointing out that feminism doesn't focus at all on the male side of things, or at least they rarely do.



    4.) Don't regurgitate factoids and soundbites and quote the likes of Salon. Make your own argument through a reasoned discussion with your own words. Show the logic. Show the myriad double standards if their are and why.
    How about you disprove things I have said, then just writing it off simply due to where some of the links come from.
    How about you actually learn to make an argument rather than insulting me by claiming I am not showing the logic.

    Edit: I mean what exactly are you asking me to show exactly when you say logic anyway?

  10. #10

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by MarchinBunny
    I didn't use it to make a point actually, maybe you should read it again. What I did do was use it to show that isn't the definition feminists follow.


    How about you disprove things I have said, then just writing it off simply due to where some of the links come from.
    How about you actually learn to make an argument rather than insulting me claiming I am not showing logic.
    I'm not interested in disproving things you've said, nor do I wish to debate. I'm critiquing your presentation of said information which I've seen verbatim places elsewhere. I asked you to show the logic and I most definitely did not say, nor imply that you did not have logic as some type of insult.

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