Reducing the "Cringe" Mentality

We've all seen the word used by non-*BDLs to describe their reaction to just knowing we're here: "cringe".

It's stuff like this, as well as some harassment on DeviantArt, that makes me support the notion of open activism.

Huh? Lost me please elaborate some more. What is BDL also. Thanks Al

ZetaSonic said:

We've all seen the word used by non-*BDLs to describe their reaction to just knowing we're here: "cringe".

It's stuff like this, as well as some harassment on DeviantArt, that makes me support the notion of open activism.

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I think I can understand why it would make some people cringe. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

INCONTAL said:

Huh? Lost me please elaborate some more. What is BDL also. Thanks Al

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*BDL takes away the "A" and replaced it with a "*" to be inclusive. Adult, Teen ..etc

The 'cringe factor' is a conditioned response. Most people - particularly women - are conditioned to a very pragmatic view of diapers as being worn only by babies or the elderly. As Cate Blanchett once said, "We all end up in diapers sooner or later."

The world at large seems to think that anyone who wants to be in diapers "sooner" is an object of derision, an attention-seeker or someone with mental issues. I think that's because the idea of an adult in diapers is so unaccustomed, and we live in a society that thrives on knee-jerk responses.

Haters are going to hate; closed-minded folks are always going to have a very judgmental view of *B/DL lifestyles. With a little time and an open mind, however, I think many people who initially display negative reactions can at least become neutral on the point.

If you're looking for a world that doesn't judge you because you wear diapers (whether out of choice or necessity) I think you'll be waiting a few decades. We're not there yet.

ZetaSonic said:

We've all seen the word used by non-*BDLs to describe their reaction to just knowing we're here: "cringe".

It's stuff like this, as well as some harassment on DeviantArt, that makes me support the notion of open activism.

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I couldn't agree more. However, I do believe before we can get general society better understand us, we must first work within our own community to get the rest of us to understand too.

It really does surprise and dismay me how many here still believe being an AB or DL is some sort of sexual fetish. This is where that sexual/pedophile cring comes from, and is what we need to seperate out amongst ourselves first- before we try and get the rest of society to follow suit.

Slomo said:

It really does surprise and dismay me how many here still believe being an AB or DL is some sort of sexual fetish.

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No one here says it's entirely a sexual fetish, that is simply what you seem to get out of the arguments that you never actually reply to. x.x
If you can't ever have a proper debate, don't expect you will ever change another person's mind. If you can't counter arguments, then all you do is solidify a person's stance.

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sbmccue said:

The 'cringe factor' is a conditioned response. Most people - particularly women - are conditioned to a very pragmatic view of diapers as being worn only by babies or the elderly. As Cate Blanchett once said, "We all end up in diapers sooner or later."

The world at large seems to think that anyone who wants to be in diapers "sooner" is an object of derision, an attention-seeker or someone with mental issues. I think that's because the idea of an adult in diapers is so unaccustomed, and we live in a society that thrives on knee-jerk responses.

Haters are going to hate; closed-minded folks are always going to have a very judgmental view of *B/DL lifestyles. With a little time and an open mind, however, I think many people who initially display negative reactions can at least become neutral on the point.

If you're looking for a world that doesn't judge you because you wear diapers (whether out of choice or necessity) I think you'll be waiting a few decades. We're not there yet.

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Something to keep in mind it's not even "conditioned" it's an evolutionary trait to some extent. Very few animals want to be anywhere near their own waste, let alone have to wear it. Babies and elderly get away with it and there is less stigma with it, because they tend to need to. It doesn't change the fact that it's still gross to just about everyone who isn't an AB/DL. Do you think mothers who change baby diapers don't think it's gross?

Let me ask you this. Do you want people who have a vomit fetish (sexual or not) to start making it public and accepted without any sort of cringe?

Something to keep in mind: Vomiting is an inclusive act; it's hard to vomit in public without someone else experiencing it inadvertently. Diapers, on the other hand, can be worn and even used undetected. Conditioning is conditioning; whether diaper contents are 'gross' or not doesn't have much to do with it. Girls are taught from infancy that diapers are things their dolls wear; later, they see them as strictly for babies. That may explain why there are so many more 'boy' AB/DLs than 'girls,' since few comparatively boys play with dolls or even babysit as teenagers.

sbmccue said:

Something to keep in mind: Vomiting is an inclusive act; it's hard to vomit in public without someone else experiencing it inadvertently. Diapers, on the other hand, can be worn and even used undetected.

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So if it's such a private matter why does it need to be accepted by the public? Why do we need people to understand it? Why do we need people to not cringe? It's not like they are stopping us from wearing. It's not like we need to actually make it public. It's not like raising awareness is going to stop child abuse or dissatisfaction from parents who see it in poor light. Quite frankly, it's always going to be seen in a poor light simply because of what it is we are doing. Sure you maybe able to make it better and accepted for those who are IC, but it's not going to get better for people who do it on purpose. No one is ever going to understand it, unless they are AB/DL themselves.

Also, I got news for you, some AB/DL want to do inclusive acts as well. Some feel they should be able to crap their diaper around other people. So I really don't see it any different than the act of vomiting.

Conditioning is conditioning; whether diaper contents are 'gross' or not doesn't have much to do with it. Girls are taught from infancy that diapers are things their dolls wear; later, they see them as strictly for babies. That may explain why there are so many more 'boy' AB/DLs than 'girls,' since few comparatively boys play with dolls or even babysit as teenagers.

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This only applies to those who have no control. The reason babies and older people wear is because they have to. So if you raise awareness for diaper wearing, it's only going to increase acceptability on those who have that need. Not for those who wear because they simply like to.

Also .. I love how many assumptions you have to make. Like as if you know that is why things are the way they are. How about you prove to me that people view all these things as they do due to conditioning.

Well, I've been a practicing AB for more than 30 years, and, since 1985, I've read everything I could find on behavioral conditioning. That doesn't make me an expert, but I'm not inclined to write a volume on conditioning simply because you aren't interested enough to read about the mental process involved.

I've never advocated that ABs or DLs need to "raise awareness for diaper wearing." For me, wearing and using diapers is not something I'm inclined to share beyond my caregiver. As I said in my initial post on this thread, I do think people eventually come around to the notion that we're not all responsibility-escaping psychopaths. That may be as much progress as we can make - or need to make - at this point.

sbmccue said:

Well, I've been a practicing AB for more than 30 years, and, since 1985, I've read everything I could find on behavioral conditioning. That doesn't make me an expert, but I'm not inclined to write a volume on conditioning simply because you aren't interested enough to read about the mental process involved.

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I have read enough about that sort of thing. My point is correlation doesn't equal causation. It's assumptions you made without any actual evidence.
So ask yourself this. Is the ill feeling toward it due to the conditioning or is the conditioning due to the ill feelings?

I've never advocated that ABs or DLs need to "raise awareness for diaper wearing."

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Right, though that is essentially what this thread is about. To try and eliminate the cringe people feel towards us. Which I don't even think is possible. I cringe on something people do here in our own community. I cringe on other fetishes. There isn't really anything wrong with cringing. It happens when it hard to understand something and it just seems to foreign to you.

I just think some people here don't quite understand that this interest we have isn't just something you can spread awareness about and have people come to accept it. If anything, it's going to put us more in the spotlight and generate far more hate.

I think it's great this is something easily hidden. Unlike being transgender, where it's not so easy. It's like everyone sees something being open out in the public to be a good thing when they don't really consider all the hate they will recieve. There is a reason transgender have such a high rate of suicide. Do we need that for AB/DL as well?

"Ill feeling" toward us is due to conditioning, not the other way around. I can't imagine many little girls (or boys, for that matter) choose to manifest "ill feelings" about diapers at an age when operant conditioning typically takes place.

I've been 'cringing' for more than three decades ... years ago, I cringed at DPF members who thought people should accept gays wearing and being changed in public. I still cringe at other posts on this forum when fully-continent adults think it's okay to go out and have messy diapers in public. As do you, I think it's great that I can hide the fact that I'm wearing a diaper. The rest of the world doesn't need to know, and I'd frankly be embarrassed if they did ... a part of my own conditioning I cannot escape.

sbmccue said:

"Ill feeling" toward us is due to conditioning, not the other way around. I can't imagine many little girls (or boys, for that matter) choose to manifest "ill feelings" about diapers at an age when operant conditioning typically takes place.

I've been 'cringing' for more than three decades ... years ago, I cringed at DPF members who thought people should accept gays wearing and being changed in public. I still cringe at other posts on this forum when fully-continent adults think it's okay to go out and have messy diapers in public. As do you, I think it's great that I can hide the fact that I'm wearing a diaper. The rest of the world doesn't need to know, and I'd frankly be embarrassed if they did ... a part of my own conditioning I cannot escape.

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I still don't think it has anything to do with conditioning. As I said earlier, humans naturally have an adverse feeling toward human waste and anything involved with human waste. It's why we potty train and it's why we have the plumbing we do. It's why people often get sick to their stomach just having to deal with that sort of stuff.

Even if we didn't have diapers or plumbing we would be teaching potty training in some other form. Probably going in some hole fairly far away. Anyone who didn't get potty trained would likely be looked down on and be viewed negatively. It would be even worse if it was someone doing it on purpose.

If you want to call that conditioning, fine ... but it's not really changeable. Not unless we change how humans feel about human waste.

There's two types of situations that make for ''cringe'' material, I think - those like us, who practice an alternative lifestyle others view as weird, and those people who just have little respect for themselves or those around them. When it comes to unusual but harmless things, like ab/dl, we should practice live and let live, allowing people to do their own thing, but unfortunately human beings tend to be a judgmental race that fears what is different. As for the latter group, I think it's more OK to cringe at people blatantly ignoring the standards of society - for example, a person changing their baby's diaper in the middle of a restaurant, or a person who wears dirty clothes by choice.

I'm not so sure we need outright ab/dl activism - I do think, however, that it would be beneficial for people to change their attitudes about weirdness and differing sexual practices in general. Whether or not this is possible on a grand scale, I don't know. Perhaps people are genetically programmed in a way to resist difference and see it as ''bad'', as unconducive to our survival as a species. That anyone displaying such traits must not be completely right in the head and unable to function as a normal human being. We ab/dl's, after all, seem to be going completely against what we're supposed to do: we're supposed to grow up, act like adults, and take our places in society. That's how the world functions and keeps going.

Of course, in the end, we use our brains to reason and see that ab/dl or other weirdnesses and kinks are really no big deal in the grand scheme of things. While it would be nice if everyone could do the same, I think it's only to be expected that we will encounter people who do not accept or even quite tolerate these differences. The best we can probably do is to surround ourselves with people who look past our oddnesses and see the person underneath. Life's too short to worry too much about what others think of us.

MarchinBunny said:

No one here says it's entirely a sexual fetish, that is simply what you seem to get out of the arguments that you never actually reply to. x.x
If you can't ever have a proper debate, don't expect you will ever change another person's mind. If you can't counter arguments, then all you do is solidify a person's stance.

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Something to keep in mind it's not even "conditioned" it's an evolutionary trait to some extent. Very few animals want to be anywhere near their own waste, let alone have to wear it. Babies and elderly get away with it and there is less stigma with it, because they tend to need to. It doesn't change the fact that it's still gross to just about everyone who isn't an AB/DL. Do you think mothers who change baby diapers don't think it's gross?

Let me ask you this. Do you want people who have a vomit fetish (sexual or not) to start making it public and accepted without any sort of cringe?

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Right, did you miss a few hundred posts or something? I've debated this point in extreme detail. Now yeah, when this topic gets to point I'm just repeating what I've already said, then why would I continue to reply.

And if someone has ANY fetish I would NOT want to hear about it al all. And as we already know, all fetishes are sexual. A person's sexual activities do not belong anywhere other than behind a bedroom door.

Slomo said:

Right, did you miss a few hundred posts or something? I've debated this point in extreme detail. Now yeah, when this topic gets to point I'm just repeating what I've already said, then why would I continue to reply.

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Well, you have not refuted any of my particular points. So guess I must have missed those few hundred posts. As for repeating what you said, maybe if you actually refuted points others bring up, you wouldn't have to. Also, I would like to say you repeat it quite often in this forum, like as if your opinion on the matter is the correct one even though so many people disagree, yet you always bring it up again and again like beating a dead horse with a stick over and over again.

How many times do people need to disagree with you, before you stop?

And as we already know, all fetishes are sexual.

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And you already lost the debate straight off the bat simply because you are wrong on this.
All fetishes are not sexual.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fetish
"1.1 An excessive and irrational devotion or commitment to a particular thing."

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/fetish
"There are sexual fetishes and nonsexual fetishes: both are obsessive interests."

So ... what is your argument against this, might I ask? These dictionaries are just wrong in your world?

MarchinBunny said:

I still don't think it has anything to do with conditioning. As I said earlier, humans naturally have an adverse feeling toward human waste and anything involved with human waste. It's why we potty train and it's why we have the plumbing we do. It's why people often get sick to their stomach just having to deal with that sort of stuff.

Even if we didn't have diapers or plumbing we would be teaching potty training in some other form. Probably going in some hole fairly far away. Anyone who didn't get potty trained would likely be looked down on and be viewed negatively. It would be even worse if it was someone doing it on purpose.

If you want to call that conditioning, fine ... but it's not really changeable. Not unless we change how humans feel about human waste.

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Thing is, what you're talking about is scat, not diapers. Diapers on their own aren't "human waste" or even anything that exists in nature, so any adverse reactions towards them are entirely conditioned. Considering how many of us like to wear them but not use them, you really should know better than to equate diapers with waste.

Also, here's a fun fact: All kinds of underwear exist to protect outer clothes from getting stained by things like sweat and skid marks. Nevertheless, panty fetishism is common and very well accepted. That on its own shows just how irrational it is for people to have an issue with diapers.

Springcircle said:

Thing is, what you're talking about is scat, not diapers. Diapers on their own aren't "human waste" or even anything that exists in nature, so any adverse reactions towards them are entirely conditioned. Considering how many of us like to wear them but not use them, you really should know better than to equate diapers with waste.

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I am sorry, but as far as I am aware most AB/DL use them. Also as far as I am aware most people outside of the community do equate diapers with waste because that is what they are meant for. So I am sorry, but that is just common sense that is what people would equate it with.

This isn't about how you and I understand it. If you want to raise awareness or bring this into the public space, you have to convince them ... not me. Not anyone here. Them. What are diapers used for? The answer is human waste ... right? So when you tell someone you wear diapers ... what is the first thing ... you think they are going to think of?

Nevertheless, panty fetishism is common and very well accepted. That on its own shows just how irrational it is for people to have an issue with diapers.

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If panties were created to be peed and pooped in, I can tell you it wouldn't be as widely "accepted". The reason panty fetishism is more common is simply because there is a very very sexual aspect to it and that has to do with the close contact to private parts and that in general is something many people are sexually attracted to.

You can't just disregard what diapers are pretty much used for in everyone's minds. Human waste. That is what they were designed for and that is what most people use them for. Including AB/DL.

MarchinBunny said:

I am sorry, but as far as I am aware most AB/DL use them.

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Well then, it seems you're not very aware of the ABDL community. Those who mess are a clear minority, and far from everyone wets.

Also as far as I am aware most people outside of the community do equate diapers with waste because that is what they are meant for. So I am sorry, but that is just common sense that is what people would equate it with.

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Considering people wear them without going in them, it clearly doesn't fulfill the "sense" part of common sense. Diapers having to be for waste isn't "common sense", just a conditioned yet incorrect belief.

This isn't about how you and I understand it. If you want to raise awareness or bring this into the public space, you have to convince them ... not me. Not anyone here. Them. What are diapers used for? The answer is human waste ... right? So when you tell someone you wear diapers ... what is the first thing ... you think they are going to think of?

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Diapers, of course, because that's what they are. They're not babies, nor are they shit. If they make incorrect connections like that, that just means they need to be educated that they're wrong. Mass ignorance doesn't change facts.

If panties were created to be peed and pooped in, I can tell you it wouldn't be as widely "accepted".

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Do you need a reminder on what skid marks are?

There is a very very sexual aspect to it and that has to do with the close contact to private parts

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You mean... just like diapers?

You can't just disregard what diapers are pretty much used for in everyone's minds. Human waste. That is what they were designed for and that is what most people use them for. Including AB/DL.

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You know what they're designed and used for regardless of whether you're a baby, incontinent or AB/DL? Not human waste, but to be worn as underwear.

Springcircle said:

Well then, it seems you're not very aware of the ABDL community. Those who mess are a clear minority, and far from everyone wets.

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Urine is human waste, so that is included and it's certainly not the minority who use diapers in the AB/DL community.

Considering people wear them without going in them, it clearly doesn't fulfill the "sense" part of common sense. Diapers having to be for waste isn't "common sense", just a conditioned yet incorrect belief.

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That is what they were invented for and that is what they are used for. It IS common sense that is what people would see them for. The amount who simply wear them without using them is by far the minority.

Diapers, of course, because that's what they are. They're not babies, nor are they shit. If they make incorrect connections like that, that just means they need to be educated that they're wrong. Mass ignorance doesn't change facts.

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It's not ignorant to know what diapers are used for. Of course, that is going to be their first thought and it has absolutely nothing to do with ignorance. It's just common sense that is what they would think. Diapers = human waste. That is what diapers were invented for.

Do you need a reminder on what skid marks are?

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I do know what those are ... yes, but not the same thing as not everyone has skid marks because a lot of people actually know how to wipe their ass properly.

You mean... just like diapers?

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Not the same thing and you are never going to convince anyone it's the same. If you think I'm so wrong .. then prove me wrong and I DARE you to go outside and start talking to people about. Let's see how wrong I am ... shall we? If you are so convinced I'm wrong .. then do it. Stop being all talk ... and show me I'm wrong. I am betting though you wouldn't because you know dang well I'm correct on this matter.

But ya, the whole world is ignorant on diaper use, except you.

You know what they're designed and used for regardless of whether you're a baby, incontinent or AB/DL? Not human waste, but to be worn as underwear.

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Diapers are designed for human waste. 100%. That is their purpose for existing.

Slomo said this at one point:

There simply isn't enough of us willing to come out into the open...

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Stuff like this is WHY I want more of us to become more open about it.
It's why I want activism to be done.