In / out let's shaky it all about UK

[siysiy]

Hi everyone in the UK and the world.

It's the EU thing. I am one very bored baby over this so I thinking of putting a smiley faces in both boxes. :laugh:

But that not the point it got to be an X in one box. So someone is going to be upset. On Friday.

I think there going to be tears before bedtime any way.

So out of interest what do you think should we stay and play nice. Or go and play and play one our own.

Hee, hee

Sisi the confused kid.

 

[dlissexy]

Its pretty much a no brainier for the in / remain campaign as all the major parties are in favour of it. However the only real reason we hare having the referendum is to shut up the right wing extremists, little engalnders, racists and others an to make sure that they feel that they have been "asked" when in fact their values don't matter too much in the world of the sensible people.

 

[tiny]

I don't think anyone really knows what we should do. Nearly everyone I speak to intends to vote "leave", but I can't help but think we (and Europe as a whole) would be better off if we remain.

I think Cameron sold his soul to the devil when he promised a referendum on EU membership. He wanted to win over UKIP supporters in the last general election, so promised them a referendum. I don't think he ever expected the "leave" campaign would be any kind of threat, but it looks like they may well have called his bluff.

 

[ade]

Nearly everyone I speak to intends to vote "leave", but I can't help but think we (and Europe as a whole) would be better off if we remain.

same here, mostly. for me, it's come way too late and should've been held decades ago when the EEC began it's transformation into the EU. not that i'm against the founding principles of a common market and the socio-economic bouying benefits which stem from that, but the EU has become a self-serving monster, and 'they' do need a good kick in the teeth (which would help stop them metaphorically stuffing their fat faces, for a while). and again, that would've best happened years ago, before they got so high and mighty.
i don't listen to any others' arguments about it as it's all just propaganda and rhetoric. more telling to my mind, is who's on whose side? but, that in mind, it's all more of a Hobson's Choice; just like at general election time when we're asked to choose between one lying, thieving, perverted psychopath or the other.
i've also found the whole Ken Livingstone thing to be disturbing (although seemingly unconnected with the Brexit issue; but who knows?), with regard to how he's been treated for telling the truth. hidden agendas abound and that applies to Brexit, too.

it's a bit of a dodgy gamble, isn't it? i mean, on the extremeties, the EU looks shaky and an 'out' protest vote isn't such a good idea with instability about. and then, there's Putin.
and everybody's forgetting about we're now dependent on energy coming through Europe. and if you play with the ideas around that, it's all miresome.

and as we've begun to delve into the 'racism' aspect, can we leave out the anti-british (racist) sentiments?
'little englanders'? nobody here has moaned about the Japs wanting a Japan for Japs (referring to a recent thread); indeed, their not liking outlanders was excused as 'it's just how they are' and nobody batted an eye. well, that's how we are, too.
and keep in mind that if there are 'extremists' in Britain, it's only as a backlash of having outlanders forced upon us by other outlanders (the government, particularly) and very much against our expressed will at the time the process of 'ethnic-cleansing by proxy' began.

it may be hard for outlanders to understand it, but we Britons aren't European in the sense which can be applied to Europe at large. along with Bretons, Basques and some other isolated mountain folk, we have a seperate bloodline and history from 'modern europeans'. and although much has become entwined, there is a distinctness of appearance and behaviour, and the foreign is noticeable.
Imams aren't british, Starrunner, they're arabian.

 

[MarchinBunny]

I don't know enough to really say which side I would be on, but I do think both sides have good points, it's just a matter of what you find more important.
It's actually probably one of those things that even if I knew ever little part of what was going on, I still wouldn't know exactly what would be the best choice.

 

[dogboy]

American economists are saying the if the UK leave the E.U., it will be bad for the British economy, and that will drop the U. S. stock market. Of course, almost anything drops the U. S. market.

 

[CookieMonstah]

Vote remain, even if you're undecided vote remain as we can leave at any time in the future where as if we leave and want to come back we need those 27 other countries to accept us back in

 

[ORBaby]

The only thing that effects me is the shaking of the US stoke market every time a new poll comes out. Polls favor exit, market drops and I get to buy at better prices. (Thank you very much.) Polls favor stay, market goes up and an opportunity to sell. There does seem like much unity in the EU any more. If the UK leaves the EU we will still have trade between the countries. For me in the US, when the political parties are agreeing I suspect they are only trying to retain some power. Either way the vote goes some people will be unhappy, but the countries are not going to collapse.

 

[tiny]

Vote remain, even if you're undecided vote remain as we can leave at any time in the future where as if we leave and want to come back we need those 27 other countries to accept us back in

Yeah... that's a really good point. I think that's what's tipped me in favour of remaining. (As well as my suspicion that the Tories will undo some of the good "human rights" legislation and destroy the NHS, either through deliberate neglect, or with something worse than the EU/US TTIP.)

Do I remember Tony Blair (or someone?) mooting the idea of joining the Euro currency and scrapping sterling? I remember thinking that would be a terrible thing for Britain. To me, retaining the pound and the control of our markets and currency seems like we have a trump card. If Britain can't make it in the EU, what hope is there for the remaining countries?

I think the EU needs some moderately significant reform. I think it needs more transparency to reassure the public, and to have more accountability (and more democracy) in its decisions. I think the dream of what the EU could be, and the political, economic and humanitarian stability it could bring to the world... is more appealing than the idea of Britain going it alone.

- - - Updated - - -

It's actually probably one of those things that even if I knew ever little part of what was going on, I still wouldn't know exactly what would be the best choice.

Do you have any idea how much money I would pay David Cameron to say that on live TV?! Ha ha! :lol:

It would probably be the truth, though!

 

[ade]

Yeah... that's a really good point. I think that's what's tipped me in favour of remaining. (As well as my suspicion that the Tories will undo some of the good "human rights" legislation and destroy the NHS, either through deliberate neglect,

i also have some worries about 'human rights' along the same lines. Britian, along with certain other countries, is still lugging around it's norman conquest-into-feudalism baggage, in the shape of what we now call The Class System, and we haven't really had a major revolution, but won concessions in a piecemeal way. and along that way, those concessions have been, and continue to be, chipped away at by the 'ruling' classes and those who aspire to the like. you can already see the process of de-nationalization of the NHS by the increase in 'managers', because de-nationalization creates 'jobs for the boys' (as well as profits, when we count the pay of 'the boys') as we saw, and see, with the other de-nationalizations and it also results in a lack of investment as profits are sought.

and the economics of Britain's affairs are highly complex as part of it's Imperial legacy and having it's fingers in many pies.
our toaster blew, recently, and i dashed out to get a cheap one from Asda for £4.50. and before you all dash out to get a £4.50 toaster from Asda, let me finish:
my sister, in Spain, bemoaned how everything over there is costlier (yet again) and that she couldn't get a toaster so cheap. but, i wonder, is it actually 'so cheap'? i mean, we pay much more in tax, and those taxes aren't limited to tax-in-name; we're taxed by a variety of means dressed up as other things. a lot of those things are part of what's called financial services and typically involves you giving your money to some stranger and getting nowt in return. car insurance is probably the most overtly a tax.
the complexity of all this takes on a whole new meaning when you follow these monies and those who hold them. it makes it easier when you stop seperating The Government and The Rich; and when you scrutinize, you'll see that they are one and the same. these people, and 'our' monies, go off around the world and finance (as scams, fiddles, bribes, pay-offs, skim-offs, etc) all the iniatives which make goods on our shelves so seemingly cheap.
the clothes on your back are a good example of such, mainly because we can see and touch the start and end products, from the plastic bottles which you pop into the recycling bin (for which we're charged by the council), which are then shipped to China (at our expense), to be recycled into synthetic fibres (for which we pay them, for being so 'green') which then go to make the clothes we finally buy from China. there may be various other scams and sweeteners, but i've simplified it.
even with it's cackhanded internal corruption, things are simpler with Spain and consequently, seemingly costlier (all things being relative).

 

[ade]

I voted 'out' :laugh:
Apparently, this vote is fairly meaningless and won't do owt. So I reckoned a protest vote was worth it. And I also swayed to what seems to be the majority on the basis that a decision should be decisive.

 

[Fruitkitty]

From an outsider (American) perspective, the argument to leave appears to be very thin. The UK already receives about as many carve-outs as it would expect to get in any eventual deal for ongoing access to the single EU market, and given that the EU would not like to set precedents that would encourage other members to leave, its incentives in dealing with a leaving UK that wants to access the single market are to do it on punitive terms.

Moreover, a disturbing amount of the support for leave in polling seems to be coming from nativist/anti-immigrant sentiment which, beyond being bigoted, misunderstands the results of leaving. First, the largest sources of immigration to the UK are from outside of the EU. Second, continued free movement of labor will presumably be required to get access to the single EU market, so leaving won't change that. If the UK were to leave and then somehow not rejoin the single EU market, the economic and geopolitical losses would swamp whatever perceived gains there are from having fewer immigrants.



For what it's worth, the reliable and wonkier parts of US political media think this is a really one-sided question in favor of remain.

 

[tiny]

Strap yourself in folks... the results are starting to come out right now...!

The markets have regained in confidence (of remaining) and Nigel Farage (of UKIP/leave) has almost conceded defeat. I don't know how they can really have any idea...

There's only another eight hours of live news, reporting the fact that no one knows anything!

 

[ade]

There's only another eight hours of live news, reporting the fact that no one knows anything!

i know, i know! i said (to myself, naturally, cos i'm loopy like that), "this isn't the news, it's the nowts!"
why didn't they just put a decent film on? think of their carbon-footprint with all those studio lights and cameras! and all the cocaine they'll be snorting!
:wallbash:

Moreover, a disturbing amount of the support for leave in polling seems to be coming from nativist/anti-immigrant sentiment which, beyond being bigoted, misunderstands the results of leaving.

as an American, though, you only get your information via the media and they present things to suit their own socio-political biases (which is usually facistic liberalism). and your view as an American is also as the immigrant/invader/land grabber/oppressor of natives, etc, and is skewed to suit you.
you also have the legacy of the civil rights movement which boiled down to a Black and White issue. along with many other americanisms, the Black and White idea, and it's connotations of whites oppressing blacks, has been imported into Britain and forms the basis of many a liberalist agenda. but, that isn't the truth in Britain. here, it's Britons who're oppressed by foreigners, many of whom paint themselves as 'british' and then set about besmirching and belittling everything which is truly british. we're the 'native americans', if you like.
there is so much that you don't know about the situation in Britain because it's not reported in the media, nor is it documented by the 'authorities'. unfortunately, i can't really go into detail as it would likely be illegal for me to do so. yep, telling the truth is illegal in Britain. but, you may be pleased to hear that that gang of foreigners known as the Police are happy to stand by and watch Britons be racially abused by foreigners and then arrest said Britons for complaining about it or defending themselves (and i'm not talking about skinheads or nazi thugs, there, i'm talking about everyday commonfolk who're just going about their business).
i suppose that as a homosexual you may have an inkling of what it's like to watch your every word and mind your company, to speak freely only amongst your own kind and to be refused service by shops or charged more than others; and, of course, to say nowt about it, lest you be arrested.
this current EU thing comes atop decades of that and of politicians, and their mates, muddying the waters and twisting things so that nothing is as clear nor as definable as it once was (and that's something to keep in mind when looking at immigration figures as they don't count the individuals, they count the 'citizenships', which matters as some folk who've never before set foot in Britain and who can't speak a word of English hold the oxymoronic title of 'british citizen' ).
some folk see this as a chance to have the say that they've been denied for many years.

 

[Fruitkitty]

At this hour, it's looking like leave won. Assuming it holds, it's going to be a wild few weeks as the government falls, the SNP calls for a new Scottish referendum, and world markets start adjusting to a major power having shot its economy in the foot.

i know, i know! i said (to myself, naturally, cos i'm loopy like that), "this isn't the news, it's the nowts!"
why didn't they just put a decent film on? think of their carbon-footprint with all those studio lights and cameras! and all the cocaine they'll be snorting!
:wallbash:


as an American, though, you only get your information via the media and they present things to suit their own socio-political biases (which is usually facistic liberalism). and your view as an American is also as the immigrant/invader/land grabber/oppressor of natives, etc, and is skewed to suit you.
you also have the legacy of the civil rights movement which boiled down to a Black and White issue. along with many other americanisms, the Black and White idea, and it's connotations of whites oppressing blacks, has been imported into Britain and forms the basis of many a liberalist agenda. but, that isn't the truth in Britain. here, it's Britons who're oppressed by foreigners, many of whom paint themselves as 'british' and then set about besmirching and belittling everything which is truly british. we're the 'native americans', if you like.
there is so much that you don't know about the situation in Britain because it's not reported in the media, nor is it documented by the 'authorities'. unfortunately, i can't really go into detail as it would likely be illegal for me to do so. yep, telling the truth is illegal in Britain. but, you may be pleased to hear that that gang of foreigners known as the Police are happy to stand by and watch Britons be racially abused by foreigners and then arrest said Britons for complaining about it or defending themselves (and i'm not talking about skinheads or nazi thugs, there, i'm talking about everyday commonfolk who're just going about their business).
i suppose that as a homosexual you may have an inkling of what it's like to watch your every word and mind your company, to speak freely only amongst your own kind and to be refused service by shops or charged more than others; and, of course, to say nowt about it, lest you be arrested.
this current EU thing comes atop decades of that and of politicians, and their mates, muddying the waters and twisting things so that nothing is as clear nor as definable as it once was (and that's something to keep in mind when looking at immigration figures as they don't count the individuals, they count the 'citizenships', which matters as some folk who've never before set foot in Britain and who can't speak a word of English hold the oxymoronic title of 'british citizen' ).
some folk see this as a chance to have the say that they've been denied for many years.

I say that the nativism and bigotry coming out of the leave side is disturbing, and this response comes across as disturbingly nativist and bigoted.

 

[tiny]

Oh shit. What have we just done... :eek!:

Pack your bags. We're outta here. Gulp.