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Thread: Ethics of revenge on cxckblock?

  1. #1

    Default Ethics of revenge on cxckblock?

    i haven't been on here in a long time so bear with me.

    For those familiar with my challenges throughout my season in New York, it was a new school, and I met a girl. I liked her on the spot, idk what she thought of me but I'm pretty certain that things were going to go my way. I spent weekends and sometimes weeks at her farm, her whole family loved having me over and totally shipped it, and she was supposed to end up coming to LA this past summer to be here for like a month and it would've helped seal the deal.

    The problem started about a year ago from around now. She was no longer attending that particular college anymore but I still kept in contact with her and her whole family on a daily basis, and I would try to pull strings to get her to be able to spend weekends visiting without paying for it (small college, nobody would snitch on me). The problem arose before that though, it just grew into a bigger problem that it finally caused me inconvenience. The cancer I'm referring to is the drummer from the school's worship team, a 27 year old dumbass who wanted her, and she was either too stupid or too deep in denial to see that he was pursuing her. He's pathetic, whenever they hung out he'd take selfies with her and tag her and make these gay little collages on Instagram and pretty much tried to pretend that there was something there.

    So anyways whenever she would come stay the weekends, he'd want to hang out with her, and I'd get almost no time with her if any at all. He had a car, he had his own apartment on campus, and he had glasses and a beard, which for some reason every church ditz is attracted to. My point is that he was always getting in my way. Even at my f--king birthday he was there just because she came. And this whole time I'm thinking wtf, because I'm getting one vibe, she's showing another, yet though counterproductive her actions didn't necessarily contradict any with me. An example always comes to mind, once told her on Sunday morning that I was coming to visit her and her family at their church (a good 75 miles away) and she woke up the entire family (who had actually planned to sleep in that sunday) and forced them to get dressed and go to church so we could all enjoy each other's company.

    Towards the end of last springs semester she calls me to lie to me that she had been praying about it and decided that she didn't want to come to California anymore, when I knew it was because her older sister really wanted her to come move in with her (her older sister has never liked me because I come from privilege and wanted to give her younger sister what she (older) always wanted but could never have) and she and this drummer guy talked her out of it. After visiting the next day and us arguing because yet again he was getting in my way and we wouldn't even spend the last days of the semester together, I had had enough and she barely talked to me the whole summer.

    Meanwhile, throughout all this, the drummer guy was trying to be my friend because he wanted gigs at my church and network of churches. He's not even good, he's a shitty drummer, but I gave him contacts and stuff, and then a week into the summer she snapchats me a picture of her in the car with him captioned "with your favorite person" and so, with the calmness of a serial killer, I called my contacts back in LA and told them to beer host him, to not reply to him and to turn him away if he tried. He was to never play at our church or partnering churches. They trusted me so they agreed.

    A few weeks ago I sent him a long text telling him what I had done, telling hm that I had to "teach him about how ones selfish behavior can hurt others", and that I forgave him for all the harm he had done not only to me but to her. He was furious and tried to accuse me of sounding obsessed and used typical Christian double talk to take any accountability off himself. I have not responded to anything he said. She still talks to me through snapchat and text, since I've left New York and came home (no further reason to stay out there) and she knows I did that to him and didn't seem to think much of it. It's actually very sad to see what she's turned into. She's so heavily influenced by her narcissistic femenazi sister, and she works at the mall selling jeans, and I say it in the most neutral way that she's not special anymore. The flannel/ripped jeans/wrestle in the snow/country girl is gone, and in her place is the anygirl. She could be the girl taking my dinner order, she could be the lady running up my total at the cash register, she could be a passing basic white girl at Starbucks, she's the same as them now. Common and the person I knew and fell in love with is pretty much dead.

    What would you have done? I know my methods were not always ethical, but I had nothing less than the purest of conduct. I never laid a finger on her, or pretended to be something I'm not because of the closeness with her. Her family loves me because I still care about her even though all her friends have abandoned her. I don't wish to defend myself, but what would you have done, and what should I do now? I cannot/will not simply move on, I'm im too deep for that. The family still wants me involved in their lives, and her younger sister (one of nine, large family) wants to come visit me, and I'm still friends with her older brother, he's awesome. Any similar experiences? I'd be surprised

  2. #2

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    Very complex. It sounds like your friend is easily swayed by her sister and a drummer. To make things clear, you did tell her you wanted to be with her and that the drummer was in the way? If not, that would have been step one. Now you're on opposite coasts? That's great her family still wants you in ther life, but the only reason you should be in their life is if you have a relationship with her or maybe her sister. Perhaps the younger sister wants to see you to have a relationship? Maybe she has some inside info on her sister? What would happen if the younger sister came and visited?

    As far as what you did to drummer boy, why should you get him gigs? I mean if he's not your friend then it almost sounds like he's using your three way relationship to get his playing time. I don't know if blocking him was right but if he's as bad as you say he is then he would have sank himself.

    For now, I would say to either have the little sister (how old is she? You're 20 and legally an adult). Or simply, distance yourself from her and her family. Either she will come around or go on with the drummer guy or someone else. Long distance relationships are hard anyway. For you, I have been to California many, many times and the girls there are awesome! I even married one!

    Good luck and keep us posted!

  3. #3

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    Why did you recommend him in the first place? If you are concerned about ethics and his playing is that bad, you should not have. I cannot figure out your motivation since in addition he was such a PITA.

  4. #4

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    This sounds like a difficult situation. I hope that you're doing okay.

    In general, it's not a good idea to recommend someone for a job unless you think they'd do the job well. Having made a recommendation, you shouldn't withdraw it unless you have negative information that would be relevant to their job performance.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterscotch View Post
    Any similar experiences? I'd be surprised
    Surprisingly, yes.

    Ooooookay, so lets type this all out *sighs*, [this is going to be at least as long to type as yours].

    So, there was this girl that I met and thought she was super cute, lets call her Celest. She was having a conversation with her friends and I was around, she mentioned that none of the men had the guts to ask girls out to the dance that was happening, so I on the spot asked her out to the dance, it was perfect timing. We went to that, had fun, I thought this was going to be a really great start to a really good relationship.

    I soon after went to her house to hang out with some of her friend who were going to be playing board games. When I went there, i met a guy who we will call Bob. Well, Bob had been hanging out with Celest and her friends for a few months now, totally friendzoned, but acting like it was just the norm. When he saw me prancing in, trying to get close with Celest, he saw what was going on and thought there was no time to wait now. He very soon afterwards asked Celest out on a date. She accepted, and realized she was in an interesting situation.

    Afterwards, we ended up pretty much taking turns taking her out on dates, it was really weird (in the end I felt used).

    Since we went to the same building on campus (an lds institute building [i used to be mormon]), Bob and I tended to see each other often. We actually developed and unusual friendship, mostly because we were both trying to understand Celest.

    There was a divide between who had what advantages. For him, he was the super sensitive guy, while for me, not as much (mostly because I have learned to bury my sensitivity until I can let my little side free). He also had a bit more time on his hands, as well, he lived much closer by her, so she and him would go on long walks. She would walk with him to work, they would spend lots of time doing sweet nothings, it was fairly romantic from an introverted point of view.

    My advantage was a few other things. I am much taller than Bob is (and Celest is kinda tall herself), and if I let my vanity speak, I think I look better (but i'm maybe a 6). I was more established according to Mormon views, meaning that I had returned from a mission. I also was much closer to finishing a degree, meanwhile he was only starting and was planing on going into music. I also had the favor of her parents (because he was going into music, and because he hadn't gone on a mission yet, and because his family appeared to have more trouble than mine, and well, its a good basis of judgementalism [because love is all about getting a sugar daddy, and not about love]). (Oh, and another note about favor from her parents, her mom called me up one day and gave me tickets to a concert to take her daughter out to).

    So, with all these wonderful things for her to choose between, you wouldn't be surprised that... She couldn't decide who she wanted to be with... so she kept dating us both..........

    (the order of events on the next two paragraphs may be in reverse, but I try not to remember because I simply don't care)

    So eventually she finally did choose. She chose him, which I wasn't horribly surprised by because he got to spend all the time with her while I was being responsible with my life as well as living further away from her. I was really bummed out about it, I downed at least 12 cans of coca cola that night to cheer myself up, decided my Ford Explorer was well fitted for the name Joe, and then the next day was surprised with an interesting, weird, awkward, irritating event. The next day, I was at a church event where Celest and Bob were both at, and they both approached me together. They both, but mostly Bob, told me that they were not going to date each other exclusively because her parents had told her that she shouldn't, and let me know that she was still available for dating. *Barf* (not dating each other my ass). Either way, I ran with it and started dating her again.

    Some time later (come to think of it now, it makes more sense that this story was before the last one, but whatever), Bob and I were having a conversation on our own. I spoke very sternly about my frustrations that Celest was not choosing one of us to remain exclusive with, and said that it is being irresponsible of her to keep leading us both on. Bob agreed, and participated in the conversation. What we didn't realize, or at least I didn't (if he was just being a sneaky twat), is that he had 'butt dialed' her phone, and she heard the gist of the whole conversation. Afterwards we both had to make up and kiss up to her. I apologized to her, and told her that I was sorry for talking about her like that behind her back. In reality though, I really shouldn't have apologized because everything I said was true and justified, but you know how it goes (in the end, the thing I should have done was just talk about her in front of her, IE confront her problem of choosing).

    So, after some period of time, Bob and Celest were exclusive again, regardless of her parents wishes (thank goodness, friken get a backbone girl and follow your heart). So they dated, I hung out sometimes because weird relationship bla.

    Then, Bob went on a mission (a 2 year event, and if you come home sooner than that, even if you came home for health problems, everybody in the community thinks you came home because you were jerking it off to porn [I apologize about being pessimistic about Mormon culture to those of the Excellent Mormon group here on adisc, but admit it, this mentality often exists in LDS culture]). She wanted to break the statistics, and keep writing her missionary, remain dedicated to him, and when he got home continue where they left off. Instead, about a year, or a year and a half into it, Bob wrote Celest off (on a mission, it sometimes gets developed into a missionaries head that if they stop getting distracted by having a girlfriend waiting for them, maybe they will do better as a missionary, as well as not be homesick....and probably help avoid thinking about jerking it).

    Soon after she was dumped by a 'dear jane' letter, I found out that she was suddenly available. A little while later, we started dating. We hung out a lot, we got to have all the introverted, sensitive time we wanted together, because I now lived a little closer, and she wasn't hanging out with Bob all the time. We got along really well, watched shows together, cuddled, it was lots of fun.

    We hit a little bump in the road when I brought up that I was proud that Utah had passed legislation allowing Gay marriage. I discovered that she, like a lot of Mormons at the time, was very anti when it came to gay marriage. I had a long chat with her, discovered some fun stuff, like how she would pray for what soup she should buy in the grocery store, and that she thinks God directly interferes with just about everything, including football games. Either way, we came out of that discussion agreeing to disagree, even though at multiple times at the start I had laughed (not at her beliefs about God, just at the fact that we were having a fight over something that didn't even effect us, gay marriage).

    Afterwards, we were pretty close, I decided it was time to drop the big bombshell, I told her about me being an Adult baby. I specifically asked her not to tell her parents because it was embarrassing. That turned out to be the wrong move, because it really bothered her. She needed somebody to talk to about it because she didn't know what to think, so I finally said it was ok if she talked to her parents about it, but she said she couldn't now because I had already asked her not to, so, trying to appease her, I told her mom that I was an Adult baby by way of text. Her mom was surprisingly kind about it, but then slipped in the words that helped me understand that she was accepting this part of my past, not my future, what she was actually saying is that she figured I was trying to quit this side of myself. Anyway, I sacrificed for this girl by going through this weird circumstance.

    A little while later, we had the final event to end it all. She happened to have a pretty frequent gig where she went 4-5 hours north and cleaned bedrooms at an inn owned by her family at a state park. I decided that I wanted to see her, so I drove my dying car up to this place, and spent around 4 days with her, helping her at the shop, helping her clean, hanging out in the evenings, watching shows on the couch, part of the night slept (non-sexually) in the same bed together until I decided I couldn't sleep comfortably and went to my room. Even got a little bit of make out time which was fun. Things seemed to be going really well. Then we talked about my AB side, and she pointed out that she could be OK with some things, but not a lot of it, she expressed that she was putting in a lot of effort to even be OK with the little bit that she was going to deal with (drinking from a baby bottle bothered her because she felt like I was doing it as a means to nurse on a boob [not that I wouldn't enjoy that, but it isn't how I look at a bottle]). We had a bit of stress after that, and I drove home in my dying car, to finally get back home and not have it work for a year and a half after that. During the drive, and when I got home, I started to heavily contemplate that maybe while being in a relationship I could drive my AB feelings into a corner and ignore them. I had already tried to subject myself to ignoring them quite a bit so I could be a better companion for her.

    Then, just then, I got to have the wonderful conversation of utter ignorance. On the phone, I was told by her that "she was doing all of the sacrificing, and that I wasn't trying in this relationship." Lets ignore that I stuck around waiting for her for years, that I tried my best to ignore my inner urges to feel little, that I talked to her Mom about my little side for Celest's own sake, and that I destroyed my vehicle in order to have some time together with her. So, that phone call when she said that, pretty much burned me out, and I ended it right there with her.



    Moral of the long story. It was emotionally draining, I haven't gone on a date more than once with a girl since, and none of it was worth it. What I should have done, was watch for the fact that I was her second choice the whole time anyway.


    So, here is my suggestion, from a guy who is emotionally charged over this, so don't take my word as law. What I would suggest, is that if you want to try anymore with this girl of yours, is confront it head on. Tell her your story, don't toss any accusations at her, but do ask her direct questions and ask for direct commitments. Let her know that you had paid for her to travel to your place because you wanted to spend time with her individually. Let her know of your efforts to build a relationship with her. Then ask her if she has any desire to date you exclusively and break a romantic relationship with the drummer boy. If she doesn't know, give her the 2 choices:
    1. You can be friends with each other, but you won't be giving her girl friend favors such as paying for trips and food, because It is emotionally stressful to feel like you are still trying to win her over. All bets on a relationship are off, and you both agree you are both friend-zoned.
    2. If she wants to try dating the drummer boy, but still likes you romantically, then you need to have some time apart from her so you can let this emotion level out for you, and so she can have some time individually with the drummer boy to decide if she is interested in him, and if not, she needs to stop dating him and be exclusive with you.

    The observation that I make from your story, is that she has been dragging you through her trouble of deciding who she likes best, and it isn't fair for you. She needs to be respectful to you and after at least a few dates, give a pretty good indication to either you or drummer boy, on who she likes best. If she keeps leading you on, then you will have to keep spending more money, keep isolating yourself from other possible partners, keep experiencing stress from jealousy. It just isn't right for a person to be doing that to another individual who has been spending so much effort for such a long time.

    So there are my two cents.

  6. #6

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    I've been in situations where poor musicians wanted me to recommend them to someone else, and I've usually told the other party that such and such wants to play, but that he's a poor musician. Then they can make up their own minds from that, and I can go back and to the first party and say that I mentioned they wanted to play. I've been straight up and honest where it counts. If you don't have the chops you shouldn't expect to be treated the same as those who do, and I've played with some great musicians.

    As for the girl, I think this relationship is dead. All you can do is move on. Forgiveness is a two way street. It's good in the eyes of God to forgive, but really, it benefits the forgiver, not the transgressor. By forgiving, you are finally able to find peace and move on. Jesus really knew what he was saying when he urged that we forgive those who hurt us. It's not for them, but for us.

    It's always easier to say than to do. I've had people who have terribly hurt me, included the guy who raped me just so I could keep my church job. Churches can be evil too since churches are nothing more than the people who make up the membership and staff. Still, I've been able to move on. I hope you can as well. I'm sure you'll find someone who is a much better person.

  7. #7

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    Wow, that is intense. After the "taking turns" part I was like wtf lol

    I think the important thing now is to keep a presence there while distancing myself for now, which I've already don't since the summer, since I snapchatted her pictures and videos of stuff I was doing reminding her that she could've been there too. Adventuring in Tennessee, Vegas, Guatemala, and all the stuff we would've done in LA here. After a while she stopped responding to those altogether, and I didn't hear from her until I returned to New York last fall, thinking I could use the excuse of one more semester as a way to stay out there and fix it, but she always used the excuse of being too busy and eventually I sent her this lengthy text (it took up a whole page on Word) about how she lied not only to me but to others, led me and other people on, pretended to care about people, and pretty much call her out on all her bs and told her what I did to the drummer guy, claiming it as a way to teach her and him that such life choices can cause bad stuff to happen to others. Pretty much sounding virtuous and making her out to be a terrible person, which she kind of is now.

    It was supposed to make her angry, it was supposed to make her cry and never want to speak to me again, instead she responded saying she didn't know that she had done that to me or others, made up some excuse about dealing with depression, and said if ever wanted to be friends again and start over that she'd like that.

    I didn't respond to it, seeing as how most of it sounded exactly like what I would say to weasel my way out d something. And also I think I would've said something in response that would've contained too much feeling and not enough thinking. So I let it sit and didn't communicate with her, though in the next couple of days she started posting pictures of herself, which she normally doesn't do, she's one of those that doesn't post much at all. It was bait, and a week after I liked a few of them, still no communication until like a month later when her family came to visit me at my college, without her. We all took a picture together and I texted it to her on its own, testing the waters. She was like "aww" but that was it.

    Since then there's been some on and off snap chatting, her showing what she's up to, which is pretty much nothing. I've been to her sisters apartment, it's borderline section 8 housing. The older sister is one of those idiots who think that because they own some overpriced camera they got with daddy's money, they can call themselves a photographer. She somehow makes money with that.

    This girl isn't even the same person anymore, she's turned into anyone. She could be anyone. Dying her hair and working at lucky brand, hired for her looks and lack of brain. So I'll wait. When the money and the drink run out I'll still be around, and let her ask me to come back into her proletariat life and the hero I'm gonna look like, how merciful I'll look. And perhaps then to her I'll finally fit the bill. I paid it enough times lol

  8. #8
    acorn

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    I hope for both your sakes she will not even dream of going back to you. You are very young and have been hurt by what has happened to date. Even as of yet, you are unable to properly forgive her transgressions. Know that forgivness is a skill some people never learn....people like acorn for example. For those all there is; is the lessening of intensity in the pain they carry.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterscotch View Post
    Wow, that is intense. After the "taking turns" part I was like wtf lol
    Yeah, it was a dramatic roller coaster.




    Quote Originally Posted by Butterscotch View Post
    I think the important thing now is to keep a presence there while distancing myself for now, which I've already don't since the summer, since I snapchatted her pictures and videos of stuff I was doing reminding her that she could've been there too. Adventuring in Tennessee, Vegas, Guatemala, and all the stuff we would've done in LA here. After a while she stopped responding to those altogether, and I didn't hear from her until I returned to New York last fall, thinking I could use the excuse of one more semester as a way to stay out there and fix it, but she always used the excuse of being too busy and eventually I sent her this lengthy text (it took up a whole page on Word) about how she lied not only to me but to others, led me and other people on, pretended to care about people, and pretty much call her out on all her bs and told her what I did to the drummer guy, claiming it as a way to teach her and him that such life choices can cause bad stuff to happen to others. Pretty much sounding virtuous and making her out to be a terrible person, which she kind of is now.

    It was supposed to make her angry, it was supposed to make her cry and never want to speak to me again, instead she responded saying she didn't know that she had done that to me or others, made up some excuse about dealing with depression, and said if ever wanted to be friends again and start over that she'd like that.

    I didn't respond to it, seeing as how most of it sounded exactly like what I would say to weasel my way out d something. And also I think I would've said something in response that would've contained too much feeling and not enough thinking. So I let it sit and didn't communicate with her, though in the next couple of days she started posting pictures of herself, which she normally doesn't do, she's one of those that doesn't post much at all. It was bait, and a week after I liked a few of them, still no communication until like a month later when her family came to visit me at my college, without her. We all took a picture together and I texted it to her on its own, testing the waters. She was like "aww" but that was it.

    Since then there's been some on and off snap chatting, her showing what she's up to, which is pretty much nothing. I've been to her sisters apartment, it's borderline section 8 housing. The older sister is one of those idiots who think that because they own some overpriced camera they got with daddy's money, they can call themselves a photographer. She somehow makes money with that.

    This girl isn't even the same person anymore, she's turned into anyone. She could be anyone. Dying her hair and working at lucky brand, hired for her looks and lack of brain. So I'll wait. When the money and the drink run out I'll still be around, and let her ask me to come back into her proletariat life and the hero I'm gonna look like, how merciful I'll look. And perhaps then to her I'll finally fit the bill. I paid it enough times lol
    Hmmm, sounds like you are still in the really lousy situation of both really wanting to have her back, and also really wanting to be done with it all, sorry man.

    Well I can't blame you for wanting to try and drive her away by just making her angry with all the facts, however, if you are going still trying to test the waters and build up a relationship again, you should never use that tactic again. Driving somebody away with anger is pretty straight forward, but driving somebody towards you with guilt is emotional manipulation, so tread carefully. Obviously you don't know what you want so I'm not blaming you, but I'm just bringing it up because your last bit (So I'll wait. When the money and the drink run out I'll still be around, and let her ask me to come back into her proletariat life and the hero I'm gonna look like, how merciful I'll look. And perhaps then to her I'll finally fit the bill) started to make me imagine a batman villain announcing their resolve. I have a good idea about the frustration though, so sorry if that sounded accusing.

    The best thing I'd say you can do now, is find peace in where you are with your life without her right now, and if something good comes out of this whole experience in the future, then lucky you, otherwise some other exciting mystery is awaiting you around the corner and 'oh well' to her absence.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Butterscotch View Post
    When the money and the drink run out I'll still be around, and let her ask me to come back into her proletariat life and the hero I'm gonna look like, how merciful I'll look. And perhaps then to her I'll finally fit the bill. I paid it enough times lol
    Lie I said. Don't wait for her. Look around for someone better that doesn't play games.

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