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Thread: Christian Judgement

  1. #1

    Default Christian Judgement

    One thing emphasized by Christ but not so much by Christianity is the concept of non-judgement. Theft, rape, murder, and deviant sex are all major social concerns, but with Christ the major concern appears to be about people judging others. This is so significant that he comes right out and says that if you do not judge others you will not be judged yourself, presumably meaning you will escape final judgement and get a free pass to heaven no matter what kind of life you lived, as long as you didn't judge others. This is nearly an impossible concept for our materialistic world to grasp.

    When Christ admonished his followers not to try removing a speck from someone's eye until they remove the log from their own, could this "log" be a reference to the mythical tree with the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden? ... and what they needed to remove from themselves was the belief that they knew good and evil?

  2. #2

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    I doubt that was the reference meant, but when I think in terms of judgment, and "do not judge yest ye be judged in turn" I take it more as "if yo do not want to be judged by others, do not judge others" which is, admittedly, humanly impossible. As far as the speck in someone else eye vs the log in our own? I always saw that as most people don't see their own faults yet keep trying to fix the faults the see in others. The "log" is our personal faults that might blind us from becoming better ourselves "speck" is the faults of others that really should come after we handle our own.

    We still need to know good from evil, yet we need to lose our perceptions of such as what might seem evil to us (and there will be some universal evils) might be nature to others and if we judge based on our perceptions, we will be judged based on the perception of others and we all will be judged by God one day and it is his judgement that we all have to deal with when all is said and done.

  3. #3

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    I used to believe as you do that the "log" represents our own faults, but more recently I see a strong connection between the "log" and the "tree" that, rightly or wrongly, I see as more than just coincidence. The idea that we can judge others (remove the speck from their eye) after we "handle our own" seemed logical but I now question this approach. The Garden of Eden story is a strange myth in light of modern Christianity in more ways than one, but one thing that stands out is that the knowledge of good and evil appears to be a bad thing. The few times the voice of Jesus is heard in the New Testament he reinforces the idea that judging people's actions as good or evil is wrong. If I take the "log" in my own eye to be my sense of good and evil, rather than my assumed sins, when I remove the log I am removing my judgement of sins. And not just judgement of others but judgement of myself as well. In other words, after removing the "log" I do not judge myself to be good enough to judge others. I simply stop judging.
    Last edited by Drifter; 02-Aug-2015 at 00:49.

  4. #4

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    There are two types of judging: social and personal. Christians should expect society (the government) to judge and punish murder, rape, and other wrongs to people. Christians were clearly told by Jesus and Paul (an apostle, legal representative of Christ) to not judge others themselves. God is the true judge of people; we are not. God will punish the wicked, the self-righteous, and the mostly-good. It is not our job.

    The parable about the speck and the log is about someone trying to fix others when they have a bigger problem. Like Icewolf said, people do not see their own problems, but want to fix others. Would you let someone near your eye when they have a log sticking out of their own? I wouldn't. Just the same, someone with problems in their own life should fix those before trying to help others. Those problems blind us to the truth. A person with an alcohol problem may think it normal to start their day with whiskey and then drive. No.

    There is another parable about a master going to get workers. He hires the first group for a full day at a fair wage. Other groups are hired throughout the day but not told how much. The last group works only an hour. The workers are paid last through first each receiving the same amount. The first workers wanted more because they worked more. Jesus said such is the kingdom of God. The thief on the cross got a free ride to heaven even though he was a little late to decide to follow Jesus. He did not confess all of his sins and was not even baptized! Talk about a free ride.

    It is human nature to judge as you have noted. Christ would like us to have and to practice a new nature of love from God. Judging is not love. Love is caring. Love wants to help others. Judging seeks to tear down and destroy others not good enough. Well, Jesus and the Bible says all have sinned. We all need the love of God and the support of others around us to build us back up. Love your neighbor as yourself. When we are doing this, we do not have time to judge their actions.


    Sexual deviance is a special case. Like I Corinthians 6:18 says: every sin is outside the body except for sexual sins. These are against a person's own body. STDs being the first concern. Being with others beyond a persons chosen partner risks disease. Also, the psychology involved is very complex. Multiple partners ruins the trust and intimacy involved. Children need stable, loving homes. These are cautions I give. Non-believers are free to do as they please. Beyond that, the Bible and I do not really care what people do in the privacy of their own home.


    Yes, right now, Christianity is walking around with a lot of logs and wondering why no one wants their help. Why won't non-Christians follow Christian directions? Could it be Christians are too blind to follow the directions themselves? We must be take care of our own lives first.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    There are two types of judging: social and personal. Christians should expect society (the government) to judge and punish murder, rape, and other wrongs to people. Christians were clearly told by Jesus and Paul (an apostle, legal representative of Christ) to not judge others themselves. God is the true judge of people; we are not. God will punish the wicked, the self-righteous, and the mostly-good. It is not our job.

    Well technically speaking I don't think it's so much as punishment as nothing more then the natural side effect of disobedience to God. Here's a analogy, a parent tries to stop their kid from playing in the mud so they can have time to do something else later that day. Unfortunately the kid did not listen (us being the kid and the parent being god) and instead of going to the amusement park that day they have to go home and get cleaned up so the kid does not have irritated skin or unpleasant side effects(I.E simply not having time to go to the amusement park that day because they had extra cleanup). The parent does not need to punish the kid at that point because things are taking care of themselves as it is. The truth of the matter is no one no matter how old or "experienced" they think they are should ever let that go to their head. Why? Because that's what leads to the arrogance of people seriously thinking they know better despite the contrary.




    The parable about the speck and the log is about someone trying to fix others when they have a bigger problem. Like Icewolf said, people do not see their own problems, but want to fix others. Would you let someone near your eye when they have a log sticking out of their own? I wouldn't. Just the same, someone with problems in their own life should fix those before trying to help others. Those problems blind us to the truth. A person with an alcohol problem may think it normal to start their day with whiskey and then drive. No.

    Yeah for someone to be honest with those around themselves that individual has to first be honest with themselves. What people don't realize is there's a difference between maturity and age. Someone can be wise beyond their years but the exact opposite can apply as well to people. I was not so different once from one of those types because I had to have the tenacity of a wolverine in order to survive but I did recognize the need to eventually do something about that which is why I think I became a AB/DL to remind myself that this is how I should be. I needed the extra innocence and therapy it gave me so I could avoid even bigger problems with myself then what I used to have once.




    There is another parable about a master going to get workers. He hires the first group for a full day at a fair wage. Other groups are hired throughout the day but not told how much. The last group works only an hour. The workers are paid last through first each receiving the same amount. The first workers wanted more because they worked more. Jesus said such is the kingdom of God. The thief on the cross got a free ride to heaven even though he was a little late to decide to follow Jesus. He did not confess all of his sins and was not even baptized! Talk about a free ride.

    It means(probably among other things) that people that most of us would think are undeserving of receiving everlasting life are going to be in heaven actually. Why? Because whatever it was that made them evil most likely has been rehabilitated to the point that they can. People forget that justice and fairness are not the same things actually. Essentially I think God has the best "corrections" program ever invented actually for all intents and purposes. This program most likely will not even be recognizable as such in a way that we as humans would understand it because it will achieve a 100% success ratio after we all wake up on the day of judgement by God or something like that.




    It is human nature to judge as you have noted. Christ would like us to have and to practice a new nature of love from God. Judging is not love. Love is caring. Love wants to help others. Judging seeks to tear down and destroy others not good enough. Well, Jesus and the Bible says all have sinned. We all need the love of God and the support of others around us to build us back up. Love your neighbor as yourself. When we are doing this, we do not have time to judge their actions.

    This is why I do not think highly of myself. I might be hard on myself but only out of necessity because I have seen what can go wrong with people thinking they can't make certain mistakes. It actually is almost a insult to me to put me on some pedestal or something like that because I'm more concerned about things going to my head preventing me from getting something done rather then actually receive "help". This helps me to keep a clear head and always stay focused on what I should be doing rather then letting things go to my head (although there's a lot more to it then that of course).




    Sexual deviance is a special case. Like I Corinthians 6:18 says: every sin is outside the body except for sexual sins. These are against a person's own body. STDs being the first concern. Being with others beyond a persons chosen partner risks disease. Also, the psychology involved is very complex. Multiple partners ruins the trust and intimacy involved. Children need stable, loving homes. These are cautions I give. Non-believers are free to do as they please. Beyond that, the Bible and I do not really care what people do in the privacy of their own home.

    Basically the question one should ask themselves is how does sexual intimacy negatively effect someone else or their relationship with God? If as in maybe the answer is it does neither of those then chances are good that it's not a sin. So how do you do that without it being a sin? Well either 1) you don't like I myself do or 2) You do so without it somehow hurting anyone (including yourself and the partner) and not have it get in the way of oneself and God. How is this done? I don't know but since having children in a healthy marriage is most likely alright with God I do believe there's a way at least. My problem is I'm always alone because of what I stand for and I simply can't tell the difference between someone who knows and everyone else.




    Yes, right now, Christianity is walking around with a lot of logs and wondering why no one wants their help. Why won't non-Christians follow Christian directions? Could it be Christians are too blind to follow the directions themselves? We must be take care of our own lives first.

    I don't think it's christianity that is to blame, I think it's human nature actually. Most of the time when you see that mistake it's really not christianity at work but it's really easy to think that though considering how some of them think and act. That's why I do things by example and not by the whims of the crowd. Of course I'm not perfect but then again Excellence gets results too though.

  6. #6

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    Does sin actually exist? My best answer is - I don't know, but if it does exist it is a matter for a god to sort out. Therefore: if sin doesn't exist then it is senseless to judge others on religious grounds. And if it does exist it isn't my business. Either way it ends up the same for me: try to avoid judging.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah
    There are two types of judging: social and personal.
    I agree with this as I presume you mean it, but with the reservation that the terms are widely overlapping. All judgements are personal, meaning they are based on feelings (body chemistry) and scientific and religious beliefs. Social law is based on a blend of religious and practical beliefs.

    As a social animal I am inclined to support society. When called upon I will offer my opinion regarding the guilt or innocence of any person accused of breaking the law. I will attempt to make this legal judgement based solely on the letter of the law, unbiased by my personal feelings or religious beliefs. My point is, I make a distinction between socially required legal judgements, and judging people or their actions as being good or evil. Saying I try to avoid judging does not mean I try to avoid my social responsibilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah
    Sexual deviance is a special case. Like I Corinthians 6:18 says: every sin is outside the body except for sexual sins.
    Here again, if sin exists it is God's business, not mine. The distinction Paul is making here sounds superficial and superstitious to me, and I would object to social laws based on this kind of reasoning. Control of infectious diseases is a legitimate concern but I believe this problem could be better addressed if we remove our superstitions about it.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Does sin actually exist? My best answer is - I don't know, but if it does exist it is a matter for a god to sort out...
    This depends on your definition of sin. My preferred one is that which displeases God. The forbidden fruit in the garden was only forbidden because God said so. Shell fish was only a sin to the Jews because God said so. There are other definitions such as things against God or actions which are evil. By these definitions, sin automatically exists. By most definitions, it is between the person and God. Like you said, it is a matter for God to sort out.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    I agree with this as I presume you mean it, but with the reservation that the terms are widely overlapping. All judgements are personal, meaning they are based on feelings (body chemistry) and scientific and religious beliefs. Social law is based on a blend of religious and practical beliefs.
    The terms are widely overlapping. Like you said, social law is based on personal beliefs of society. The distinction of Christians not judging others is them meeting another person and making judgments on that person. They are to treat everyone equally with love. They are not to personally condemn anyone. God would have all to be saved; Christians need to follow the plan.

    Society needs to come together and work towards a better society. This is separate from the Christian mandate. Society cannot allow rapists and murders to freely act out their desires. It also cannot allow people to drive however they please. Here, the actions are judged and corrected for the good of society. Unless Christians are Judge, Jury, or Law Enforcement, it is not their job. Except in those cases, Christians should just be doing their civil duties to support the laws and society.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drifter View Post
    Here again, if sin exists it is God's business, not mine. The distinction Paul is making here sounds superficial and superstitious to me, and I would object to social laws based on this kind of reasoning. Control of infectious diseases is a legitimate concern but I believe this problem could be better addressed if we remove our superstitions about it.
    The distinction would have been more clear if I quoted more of the chapter. The previous verses talked about prostitutes which we now know have a high risk of disease. Nearly every state has laws against prostitution based on this very passage. Those verses were written about 1800 years before we discovered viruses and bacteria and leave out the why part. The basic idea is equally valid today. Be selective with sex partners.

    Now, addressing our superstitions is an excellent suggestion. Some Christians define sex as only in the missionary position. Really! What non-sense. How does this even matter? Defining it as only for making babies: again nonsense. Even the Bible recognizes sexual desires as being natural in I Corinthians 7.

    The Bible is silent on how to fill these desires, but definitely recommends a single partner. This is not superstition; it is the safest way to practice sex. Psychologists, doctors, and others have confirmed this fact. Today, we have ways to control the physical risks. The mental risks are not so easy. Some women end up feeling like men only want them for their body. Some men have trouble forming loving relationships. When 2 people do pair up, there are jealousy and faithfulness concerns shaking the relationship.

    The issue is people trying to make laws on this. Some states limit the number of sex toys a person may own. Again, plain stupidity. Rules on sex partners and positions equally ridiculous. Any law that requires a serious breach of privacy to enforce is probably not appropriate. There is a huge difference between knowing how to best live your own life and telling everyone else they must live the same way. People need to stop worrying about how others live.

  8. #8

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    I think that state should be separated from church and stay that way. The church needs to stay away from the law. I don't think that it's fair to make laws based upon religion. Especially when those rules were written by man. The bible was written by different people with different ideas. While most of the rules are common sense, some are just out right bigotry. Some of these rules are so outlandish.

    I'm not living my life based upon church, I'm not religious and expect not to live by religious rule. I respect you and your religion but don't force me to live it.

    I have family members that are Christians and I hear them moan and groan about anything that's not considered ethical in their terms. Christians are the stereotypes that judge a book by its cover. A good example of that is I played a song from a band called Woe of Tyrants, they are an extremely talented Christian metal band. The first thing that came out of his mouth was, "This is so dark and sounds like Satan worshipping." I didn't call him on his predetermined judgement as he kept going on and on about Christian values.

    It doesn't matter if people are religious or not, based upon it's rules everyone's going to hell.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah
    The forbidden fruit in the garden was only forbidden because God said so.
    This is one interpretation of the myth but it makes God appear to be petty and vindictive. It also makes the snake look like the honest one. My interpretation of this part of the myth is that there really is something wrong with "knowledge" of good and evil.


    Shell fish was only a sin to the Jews because God said so.
    I believe it was the Jews, themselves, who made it into a sin. Just my opinion but, most likely the prohibition against eating shellfish arose because at some point in time shellfish caused some disease in their community. For later generations unaware of the original reason for the prohibition it became a superstition that eventually became part of their law.


    The Bible is silent on how to fill these desires, but definitely recommends a single partner. This is not superstition; it is the safest way to practice sex.
    And the safest way to use an automobile is to drain the tank and keep it in the garage. This does not make other uses of the automobile evil. Society makes up laws to mitigate the inherent dangers and environmental damage involved with driving.

    You may be thinking that driving and sex can not be compared as moral issues because they are entirely different aspects of human life. They are definitely different activities but they are similar in that there is an inherent risk in both of them and both are expected to be done with a high level of social responsibility. The single biggest difference between the two is that many people find various sex acts to be repulsive and, therefore, evil, whereas people generally are not repulsed at all by the act of driving. Safe sex and safe driving should be considered equally ok by society, at least as far as laws go.


    Any law that requires a serious breach of privacy to enforce is probably not appropriate. There is a huge difference between knowing how to best live your own life and telling everyone else they must live the same way. People need to stop worrying about how others live.
    Agreed.

    Here when you say "stop worrying about how others live" you obviously do not mean to be unconcerned about the welfare of others, but, rather, to be nonjudgemental about how others choose to live. I believe this to be one of the fundamental teachings of Jesus, and one of the teachings that Christianity, in general, has gotten backwards. Your personal beliefs and feelings will tell you that some kinds of sex are ok and other kinds aren't, and you will want social laws to reflect your feelings. At the same time you feel resentful when others with a different perspective on what is permissible sex try to get the law to reflect their feelings. You will find other, differing, opinions on sexual morality to be either too restrictive or too permissive, and will be tempted to judge those that hold such positions as weak minded or misguided or evil. It's hard to resist judging people who have different sexual appetites. Even John Waters, producer of cheap exploitation films involving things like a mother giving oral sex to her son (actors), and scenes involving eating dog feces (real, he claims), draws the line at diaper fetishism. He thinks that's disgusting.

    I try not to judge people, even people like Waters who take it to the extreme.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by MeTaLMaNN1983 View Post
    I think that state should be separated from church and stay that way. The church needs to stay away from the law. I don't think that it's fair to make laws based upon religion. Especially when those rules were written by man. The bible was written by different people with different ideas. While most of the rules are common sense, some are just out right bigotry. Some of these rules are so outlandish.

    I'm not living my life based upon church, I'm not religious and expect not to live by religious rule. I respect you and your religion but don't force me to live it.

    I have family members that are Christians and I hear them moan and groan about anything that's not considered ethical in their terms. Christians are the stereotypes that judge a book by its cover. A good example of that is I played a song from a band called Woe of Tyrants, they are an extremely talented Christian metal band. The first thing that came out of his mouth was, "This is so dark and sounds like Satan worshipping." I didn't call him on his predetermined judgement as he kept going on and on about Christian values.

    It doesn't matter if people are religious or not, based upon it's rules everyone's going to hell.
    The U.S. has been working towards separation of church and state for many years now. Religion's influence can't be completely eliminated from the government because people are free to express their religious beliefs and to use their beliefs to guide them in their political decisions. I don't see why or how we would change this, but our courts can decide if specific laws are based solely on religious belief and declare such laws as unconstitutional.

    I, too, believe Christians are judgemental in general, but I try to avoid the trap of judging this to be a good thing or a bad thing. It is just a part of reality.

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