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Thread: Gays and the treatment of buisnesses

  1. #1

    Default Gays and the treatment of buisnesses

    I am conflicted when it comes to things like this. While the left seems to have a minority of rather extreme people, the couple did break the law. They continued to tell the world that they would break the law. Now, a fine like this is way too much, heck, things like suing over this stuff is far too much as well.

    Though that is a grey area. Pastors shouldn't, and never will nor can be sued over refusal to perform a wedding, as they have religous protection. The couple couldn't use that as Oregon's anti discrimination laws prevent such a thing for a business. It is events like these that make both sides hate by each other. The religious right gets more "proof" of how the left and gays are bringing on the end of times and persecution of rights. The left sees crazy people who follow a book instead of law and continue to hate other people.

    Part of me says they should have gone somewhere else. But other part says they broke the law and they had to follow the consequences. The couple is mainly at fault. They could have said they were busy that weekend, or some other excuse. But they denied service because their religion says gay-weddings are immoral and wrong, thus denying service to a protected class under Oregon law, and that is what doomed them in the end. 135,000? Makes our side look bad, and is way too much. Maybe the gay couple just wanted equal treatment, or they are those few that want all christians to be destroyed. It's sad when a small part of our community is making the rest looks like intolerable ass-bags.

    Sure, we won't stop until we are treated as first-class citizens, but as long as we can be fired, and even denied housing realestate for being gay, we have a long way to go.

    And as for anyone who believes the couple did the right thing, and was right to deny service to gay couples, I want you to read this blog post. Gives what I believe would be a real Christ-like approach to these situations.

  2. #2

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    Slow down.

    What are you talking about? I get the general gist of what you're talking about, but I have no idea what specific event you're referring to.

  3. #3

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

    Religious views are not a legal reason to discriminate someone. It's been tried, for example in this case where Christians felt that their religious support of segregation meant that they didn't have to serve African American's in their private business.

    Any assentation that a case like this just makes 'both sides hate' is blind and foolish. To 'just go to another business' is to allow discrimination to occur. There were probably a lot of racists who were VERY upset by this case, where the 'evil Supreme court' was 'oppressing' their 'religious freedoms' to deny African American's any service but here we sit now, nearly fifty years later, and the idea of a private business claiming religious views to deny Africans Americans business is unimaginable.. If it did happen, news crews would surround it with reporters going 'We're here at Racist Burger which is run by people more racist than your racist grandmother, so far Mr. McRacist, the owner of Racist Burger has refused any comment as protestors picket the establishment. Wow, this guy is really racist. Back to you in the studio, Jim.'

    African Americans did not achieve what they did in the civil rights movement by being polite and just giving up. The GLBT community will accomplish nothing if they did the same.


    Don't worry, white supremacists have been thinking that African Americans having equal rights in the law would bring upon the biblical end of times as well. It's just what Christians tend to do when the world doesn't bend over backwards for them.

  4. #4

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    Draugr, look for the blue letters in the text for links to the other details.

    I find myself torn between the two sides. It is one thing to have a restuarant or bakery and refuse service to customers who appear gay. It is another thing entirely to require a wedding cake. The bakery normally delivers and sets up the cake at the location. In this instance, a homosexual wedding may have details (location, decorations, etc.) also offensive to the couple's religious beliefs. I have known some gays and lesbians eager to offend straight Christians and this would be a perfect opportunity. Did they pick out the leatherman grooms pair with assless chaps to top the cake? Request black roses?

    This is a new legal mess. Straight Christians should not be forced to enter the locations of homosexual weddings. Homosexuals have the same right to marry and use businesses. They have equal rights to service. One of these rights must win over the other. Same for wedding photographers. Although finding fabulous straight Christian photographers may prove more difficult.

    Forcing people to violate their religious beliefs by requiring them to make and deliver a wedding cake is wrong. Violating people's right to marry by not making and delivering a wedding cake is wrong. This situation will only spread more anger and hate.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    Draugr, look for the blue letters in the text for links to the other details.
    I see it now. It was hard to tell apart against a white background.



    I find myself torn between the two sides. It is one thing to have a restuarant or bakery and refuse service to customers who appear gay. It is another thing entirely to require a wedding cake. The bakery normally delivers and sets up the cake at the location. In this instance, a homosexual wedding may have details (location, decorations, etc.) also offensive to the couple's religious beliefs. I have known some gays and lesbians eager to offend straight Christians and this would be a perfect opportunity. Did they pick out the leatherman grooms pair with assless chaps to top the cake? Request black roses?

    This is a new legal mess. Straight Christians should not be forced to enter the locations of homosexual weddings. Homosexuals have the same right to marry and use businesses. They have equal rights to service. One of these rights must win over the other. Same for wedding photographers. Although finding fabulous straight Christian photographers may prove more difficult.

    Forcing people to violate their religious beliefs by requiring them to make and deliver a wedding cake is wrong. Violating people's right to marry by not making and delivering a wedding cake is wrong. This situation will only spread more anger and hate.
    If a business owner feels so strongly that his/her religion dictates that he/she must discriminate against other Americans, then they either need to find a new business to be in, or maybe they should just not be in business at all.

    I really hold no sympathy for any business owner who cries because they can't discriminate. I don't care how "icky" they feel about it or how involved they have to be as a result of the type of business they are in. They can deal with it or get slapped with a discrimination lawsuit.

  6. #6

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    To be clear, a Catholic run bakery ALSO couldn't refuse to wedding cake for a heterosexual couple who each previously had divorces. ...But ya know, no one is worried that preventing THAT discrimination would just 'Anger those who oppose divorce in all it's forms'. Funny that.

  7. #7

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    Yes, where does the discrimination end? Religion can be used and misinterpreted to discriminate against African Americans, mixed race weddings, Jewish weddings, Mormon weddings and the list goes on. If someone is really devout in their convictions, they should find a different line of work, one where they won't be working with people who might be different from them. Won't that be a fun challenge.

  8. #8

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    It sounds like what you are concerned about is the actual amount that they were sued for. I think the price was certainly more steep than was probably nessisary, however, after lawyer fees, interference with wedding planning which can be expensive, grievance from public exposure, inconvenience for finding other shops, and possibly expenses in councilling if the girl felt that the whole event was just that tramatic, then I could see a hefty fine following. I would have not expected more than $50,000 but that still seems a little high.

  9. #9

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    When judging the 'validity' of the cost of the fines and penalties, you should consider what else these bakers did: They publicly released the full names and home address of the couple in question through social media.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...you_shoul.html

    They continually appeared in media to deride the lesbian couple. The lesbian couple received a lot of attention as well, including from private individuals who harassed and even issued death threats from opponents of same sex marriage. This endangered the situation of the two foster children the lesbian couple were taking care of and there were times where the state was considering removing the children. This thankfully did not happen and the couple has since adopted the children. So, to be clear, in the name of Jesus Christ, these bakers nearly fucked up the chances for two foster children to have a family.

    They are genuine pieces of shit who sought, and nearly succeeded, in sending the Conservative Hate Machine after a couple who wanted service from a place of business as every American is entitled to.
    Last edited by AshleyAshes; 05-Jul-2015 at 21:11.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    Forcing people to violate their religious beliefs by requiring them to make and deliver a wedding cake is wrong.
    The shop was hardly forced to make and deliver a wedding cake! They set up a business and explicitly advertised their desire to make and deliver cakes. And there's nothing in the Bible that says that you can't bake cakes for people! The cake isn't relevant to the argument -- the bakery just wanted to score political points by imposing their self-important views about how people should live by discriminating against innocent members of the public, and then basking in the godly glow of all the publicity they generated.

    I can't understand why Christians would be so judgemental and moralising when Christ supposedly was kind, compassionate, showed humility and implored people not to judge others. Are the bakers really religious, or is it just a front to excuse their behaviour?

    And given that many Christians seem homophobic, yet don't seem morally perplexed when dealing with people who eat shellfish, is all "religious homophobia" just a way for homophobes to justify and accept their feelings of hatred? Is it actually anti-Christian to warp religion to justify your own beliefs like this, when Christians should avoid judgement and "turn the other cheek" to indiscretions? The question (of the shellfish) has been asked many times, but I've never had a proper answer. :-/

    Either way, if Christians don't want to interact with the rest of society because they disagree with others' theological views, they shouldn't open a business that deals with the general public.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    Violating people's right to marry by not making and delivering a wedding cake is wrong. This situation will only spread more anger and hate.
    I think, as religious belief continues to decline, and judgemental Westerners become accustomed to a less oppressive society, anger and hate will also reduce.

    I don't know if it's true, but this news article claims that access to information (via the internet) has caused American teens to flee from religion as myths become harder to justify.
    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/teen...gions-decline/

    Religion is far more niche in the UK than in the US, but still rapidly declining.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-33256561

    I think it will be hard for anyone in the future to look back and think that it was morally justifiable to prevent two people in love from getting married. It's not as if there are any scientific, logical or moral arguments against it:
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/b...sation-science
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/b...e-gay-marriage

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by AshleyAshes View Post
    When judging the 'validity' of the cost of the fines and penalties, you should consider what else these bakers did: They publicly released the full names and home address of the couple in question through social media.

    http://www.oregonlive.com/business/i...you_shoul.html

    They continually appeared in media to deride the lesbian couple. The lesbian couple received a lot of attention as well, including from private individuals who harassed and even issued death threats from opponents of same sex marriage. This endangered the situation of the two foster children the lesbian couple were taking care of and there were times where the state was considering removing the children. This thankfully did not happen and the couple has since adopted the children. So, to be clear, in the name of Jesus Christ, these bakers nearly fucked up the chances for two foster children to have a family.

    They are genuine piece of shit who sought, and nearly succeeded, in sending the Conservative Hate Machine after a couple who wanted service from a place of business as every American is entitled to.
    Good grief! So it really sounds like it was nothing to do with religion at all, and more about cruel, vindictive bigots who get off on bullying others... as I suspected... :-/

    Is this really Christian-like behaviour? Are Christians supporting the bakery? Or are they rightfully condemning the hatred and distancing themselves from the bakery in question?

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