View Poll Results: Given the scenario below, what is the appropriate response?

Voters
62. You may not vote on this poll
  • A. Call the cops

    1 1.61%
  • B. Go somewhere else

    55 88.71%
  • C. Sue the priest

    6 9.68%
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Thread: Impact of Gay Marriage on Churches

  1. #1

    Default Impact of Gay Marriage on Churches

    I was just wondering how this might play out in the u.s.

    If the Supreme Court rules that states do not have the right to deny marriage licenses to homosexual couples then they will have the legal right to marry.

    I think what makes people who don't believe in gay marriage, for better or worse, nervous because they see that some people that are objecting to this, the cake instance (people didn't want to provide cake to a gay wedding), are being sued and vilified. Whose rights are more important, the rights of the people to run their business how they want or the homosexual couple.

    My question to this is "what should be done with Christian leaders whose church bodies have always objected to Gay Marriage?"

    Let's say a gay couple comes to such a person and requests them to marry them and the church leader says no. What is the appropriate response?

    Should they be left alone to practice their religion as they see fit? Should they be forced to do the wedding against their will? Should they be fined? Should they be sued? Should they be arrested for violating the civil rights of the couple? What are your thoughts on their rights and the appropriate response?

    ~~~Merging Posts~~~

    Scenario:

    Gay marriage has been upheld by the Supreme Court. They have ruled that all bans on gay marriage are unconstitutional. States begin issuing marriage licenses without discrimination.

    A gay couple goes to a catholic priest and asks to be married in their church by him.

    He refuses on religious grounds.

    What is the appropriate response?

    A. Call the police and have the priest arrested or fined for discrimination.
    B. Walk out and go look someplace else
    C. Sue the priest for violating the civil rights of the couple.

    The poll is anonymous. Please justify your response if you so desire.
    Last edited by HogansHeroes; 06-Jun-2015 at 05:39. Reason: merging posts from other thread

  2. #2

    Default

    There are legal questions raised by constitutional gay marriage. I don't see this as one of them. It's already a resolved matter with priests, rabbis, etc., not forced to marry those who are incompatible with their faith: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/0...te-117452.html.

  3. #3

    Default

    So would the more relevant question be related to businesses and their refusal to provide services to Gay weddings?

  4. #4

    Default

    I'm not aware of all the legal bits of marriage.

    That being said:

    --If we're talking about declaring someone legally married (i.e. you have a government issued license to do that), you should do that regardless of your religious beliefs or you should lose the license to do that imo. For the same reason that you don't get to not give women a driver's license because you don't believe women should be operating motor vehicles.

    --As far as presiding over an actual wedding ceremony... It doesn't make any sense to force churches to perform religious functions counter to their religion.

    We should completely divorce the idea of legal marriage from religion imo.

  5. #5

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    There are legal questions raised by constitutional gay marriage. I don't see this as one of them. It's already a resolved matter with priests, rabbis, etc., not forced to marry those who are incompatible with their faith: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/0...te-117452.html.
    I suppose it would become relevant if the gay couple was catholic. Would the priest still have legal grounds to refuse to marry them just for being Gay?

  6. #6

    Default

    The government can't refuse but I see nothing wrong with a priests refusal due to his own beliefs.

  7. #7

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by GundamMeister7 View Post
    So would the more relevant question be related to businesses and their refusal to provide services to Gay weddings?
    Yes, this is a question of discrimination. If gays are a class protected from discrimination and the business doesn't have that faith-based exemption, they're likely to lose on such a matter. We just had a case on this in my state: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0LN0B520150219



    Quote Originally Posted by GundamMeister7 View Post
    I suppose it would become relevant if the gay couple was catholic. Would the priest still have legal grounds to refuse to marry them just for being Gay?
    The Catholic church's position on this is currently pretty clear. The couple could be Catholic but they're breaking church rules, so no dice.

  8. #8

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by GundamMeister7 View Post
    I suppose it would become relevant if the gay couple was catholic. Would the priest still have legal grounds to refuse to marry them just for being Gay?
    He would certainly have legal grounds, because religious ceremonies are not treated in the same way as "goods and services" provided to the general public by non-discrimination legislation. Religion is generally treated as a private club where the members are free to decide the rules amongst themselves.

    If you're a member of a club and you don't like the rules then you either have to a) ask the other members to support a change or b) resign. You can't expect other members of the club to break the rules in your favour, even if they would not be committing a crime.

    In the same way, a Roman Catholic priest who DID perform a same-sex marriage in accordance with the law could still be disciplined by his superiors because he had broken the rules, and the priest in that case would have no recourse to anti-discrimination law either.

  9. #9

    Default

    Forgive my ignorance of things legal but the whole thing seems inconsistent.

    Either both the priest and the business owner can refuse to provide their services or both are required to by law. Why are their two different standards for the different parties?

    I know you have graciously given the example above MsClaraRiddle but it still seems like people are trying to have it both ways. Why would a business owner who is catholic be sued for not providing his service but the religious leader can make a religious objection that is not allotted to a different citizen just because of the job that they have.

  10. #10

    Default



    Quote Originally Posted by GundamMeister7 View Post
    Forgive my ignorance of things legal but the whole thing seems inconsistent.

    Either both the priest and the business owner can refuse to provide their services or both are required to by law. Why are their two different standards for the different parties?

    I know you have graciously given the example above MsClaraRiddle but it still seems like people are trying to have it both ways. Why would a business owner who is catholic be sued for not providing his service but the religious leader can make a religious objection that is not allotted to a different citizen just because of the job that they have.
    Well on one level it is an inconsistency - it's because there is a clash between two things the law is trying to protect: 1) the right not to be treated unfavourably due to an irrelevant personal characteristic (sexuality, race, gender ect.) and 2) the right to the free practice of your religion.

    Religions generally have all kinds of freedom to discriminate against anyone provided they can show it's in accordance with the proper exercise of their religion. This often disadvantages members of a faith who are women and/or LGB and/or T, but they have the option of leaving their faith organisation and practising in a way that doesn't disadvantage them - for instance if you are a woman who is raised Catholic and you feel called to the priesthood, you could join the Anglican Church.

    If you are a Catholic and you own a business providing a service you can say that your religion teaches you not to approve of same-sex couples - but you cannot claim that the practice of your religion requires that you do not do business with them. You could argue that doing business with a same-sex couple implies an approval, but that's pushing interpretation pretty far.

    We all depend on our ability to work and to purchase goods and services from others to survive. There are 29 States where an employer can fire you if they think you are LGB and/or T and there is nothing you can legally do about it.
    Obviously when it comes to purchasing good and services some are more vital for you to be able to purchase than others - but imagine if the shops near where you live refuse to serve you because they think you're gay, and you have to spend more money driving to shops further away where they don't think you're gay? What if you can't rent or buy a house near where you work because they all refuse to sell to LGB and/or T people? In a proper free market one person's money should be as good as another's.

    When it comes to a marriage certificate, (as long as it's legal for you to marry) you can go to a civil office and get one, or you can go to a house of worship that will perform the ceremony for you. It's not totally consistent, but it allows the most freedom for the most people.

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