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Thread: Your opinion of private firearm ownership.

  1. #1

    Question Your opinion of private firearm ownership.

    There has been a few recent gun control threads specifically focused on politics in the US. While I understand that some of you may be tired of discussing the topic, it remains stuck in my head and needs to go somewhere. May I respectfully bring up the topic from another perspective?

    Each of us come from different locations and have different experiences and perspectives. We have members from Europe, North America, Asia, and even down under. The firearm laws and general public attitude towards firearms varies widely between our different locations. Even within the US, laws vary widely between states. New York State requires a permit to even purchase a handgun. South Dakota allows open carry and offers a concealed carry permits to anyone 18 or older who may legally purchase firearms for only $10; an 18 year old cannot legally purchase the handgun or ammunition South Dakota will permit them to carry because federal law requires age 21 to purchase handguns and handgun ammunition. Texas requires training for concealed carry and has higher costs. That is some variation!

    To open this discussion up to everyone, please focus on your personal opinion of the topic at hand and respect the opinions of others. We can all go research what is legal in each jurisdiction and should do so before possibly violating any laws. It is the personal views of all members that interests me for this thread. My answers will be posted later to not influence the initial responses.

    1a. What level of training is appropriate for the carrying of firearms for defense?
    1b. Who should be eligible for this training?

    2a. What do you consider reasonable for the private ownership of handguns (semi-automatic pistols or revolvers)?
    2b. What do you consider reasonable for the private ownership of long guns (rifles and shotguns)?

    3a. What are reasonable uses for private firearm use (self-defense, hunting, shooting sports, etc.)?
    3b. What firearms are appropriate for the reasonable uses?

    4. If required, how would you allow the private use of firearms without private ownership?


    Thank you for reading this thread.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    1a. What level of training is appropriate for the carrying of firearms for defense?
    A MINIMUM of 20 lessons with a certified (mil-standard/police-standard) shooting instructor, membership at a local IPSC (or equiv.) combat shooting club and at least one session every two month. Fail to do this and the permit should be suspended until you go through some basic formal repetitive training.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    1b. Who should be eligible for this training?
    Everyone from age 21 onwards.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    2a. What do you consider reasonable for the private ownership of handguns (semi-automatic pistols or revolvers)?
    Revolvers and Semi-Automatic with a caliber of up to .45ACP (or smaller).
    in my opinion there is no reason for a private citizen to have larger guns than that or anything full-auto.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    2b. What do you consider reasonable for the private ownership of long guns (rifles and shotguns)?
    Hunting rifles (single-loader, semi-auto - but certainly no full auto), Shot-guns too - excellent close quarter self defense tool.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    3a. What are reasonable uses for private firearm use (self-defense, hunting, shooting sports, etc.)?
    Self Defense (I believe EVERYONE has the right to protect his own life, the life of his loved ones and his property).
    Hunting (if you have a permit and respect wild life - I hate "sports / point hunting").
    Target shooting at a gun range.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    3b. What firearms are appropriate for the reasonable uses?
    Self Defense: Small to mid Calibre (.22 to .45) hand guns, single or double-action semi autos, or revolvers, shotgun
    Hunting: Traditional hunting rifles... semi-auto,... shot guns...
    Target Practice: ANYTHING - as long as the guns outside of the specified types above, stay AT THE RANGE, locked in a safe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah View Post
    4. If required, how would you allow the private use of firearms without private ownership?
    I'm against that - unless for "special" weapons (full-auto, large stuff...) .
    Basically I'm a full supporter of owning appropriate self defense weapons. Well I'm - as mentioned - a firm believer in the right for self defense.
    If someone breaks into my house, threatens my life, whatever - it was his choice to do so... and it should be my right to defend myself even with ultima ratio.
    After all no one forced an aggressor to commit the act in the first place... so why should I give a crap about that person.

  3. #3

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    As a non-aristocratic Englishman, I can't see the need for gun ownership at all. No member of the public should carry a firearm for personal defence (as is the law here). I can't imagine living in a country where lethal weapons are at everyone's fingertips. It's... a different world in the US -- it sounds so lawless. Even the police don't carry guns here! (Except for a minority in special divisions.)

    I've seen weird pro-gun videos online where people almost seem to get a kind of sexual arousal from the idea that they can blow someone's brains out with their cowardly weapon of fear. I don't really understand it. If you want to test your skill, play darts! Why get off on the fact that you have a killing machine to play with?! There's something really creepy about people who get excited about guns...

    I'm not saying it's bad just because I don't understand it. I'm just saying I don't understand it. I mean... who would understand the urge to wear diapers and dance around like a little kid? Whatever. It's pretty much the same kind of craziness, and who am I to judge?

    I'm just glad I live in a country where guns are exceptionally rare and, if I'm pulled over in a car, the police approach me with a friendly attitude and call me "sir", rather shove a gun in my face and tell me to "get on the f***ing floor".

  4. #4

    Default Your opinion of private firearm ownership.

    The foundation of my understanding of gun law and the second amendment revolves around what the founding fathers most likely were concerned about at the time.

    Having just waged a war against an oppressive government, the second amendment was meant to provide a safeguard against the POSSIBILITY of an out of control government.

    In the US, the power of government is intended to originate from, and be at the mercy of the people. The personal possession of firearms is supposed to be a buffer against the opposite: a government that has lost legitimacy.


    Now, whether or not a successful revolt in the event of an oppressive government that has gotten out of control could actually be waged is up for debate. However, it's irrelevant really, as the continued existence of the second amendment, and the gun rights it supposedly protects, is an important safeguard regardless.

    Plus, I love to hunt, and having been around firearms my entire life, handling them with due respect and care in a safe manner is instinctual. 90% of everything you need to know when handling firearms is based on common sense really.

    1. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded, at all times.
    2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have checked your surrounding and determined it is safe to shoot (trigger discipline)
    3. A clean gun is a safe gun
    4. The primary purpose of any firearm is to take life, they are not toys, and shouldn't be treated as such.
    5. Keep guns away from all children and non-gun owners.

    As long as these basic guidelines are followed, you will be fine 99% of the time, with or without formal training.
    Last edited by Dan09; 12-Jan-2014 at 04:49.

  5. #5

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    I guess I would question the need for private firearm ownership in the first place rather than debate reasonable precautions, restrictions or uses. Instead of focussing on 'managing' a culture of gun idolization, I believe our society would be safer and better protected by striving to reduce the number of unnecessary guns in our homes.

    It's a myth that guns in homes make people safer. In fact, it is the access to guns in homes that leads to more deaths. For example, a number of studies have shown that in every country in every part of the world, the number of suicides by firearms were always higher than firearm-related deaths involving criminal activity. If you throw in the number of accidental killings due to access to guns in the home, and those used in domestic disputes, it is hard to understand how people think having a gun in the house will make them safe. Where there are more guns, there are more deaths, plain and simple.

    Here in Canada, we have stringent gun laws and less ownership of firearms, and the rate of deaths by firearms is exponentially lower. We don't walk in fear, and we are not afraid of one another.

    .
    Last edited by Starrunner; 12-Jan-2014 at 02:24.

  6. #6

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    The need for gun ownership is something I can't see at all too, there's just nothing that justifies it.

    In some instances we may need guns or something similar. Huntsman, sadly, are something we need, to keep the urges of certain animal species in check. And secondly to keep them away from us, if every kind of "luring them back" tactic fails. But there's no need for any kind of private hunting, too much risks and it's the job of the huntsman, or should be.

    Police too surely, in some instances. Despite that there are enough other methods for a non lethal approach, sometimes it can't be helped. Usually those countries with a very restricted gun ownership have a quite nice statistics.
    Or the general population has to have a very calm personality, if it's not just being very naive perhaps on the other hand. The most surprising example I can think of would be Iceland, where armed police made their first ever fatal shooting in 2013, and this only after some police officers have been hit already. But well, it's Iceland, you'll never know when there's a drunk polar bear rampaging at your door ;-)

    Anyway, there seems to be some kind of larger conceptual problem. When we hear "defensive gun use" we usually think of a law abiding citizen confronting a criminal. That's extremely naive, crime does not present itself so neatly. Most of the the time it is seriously misleading to designate one of these persons as a "criminal" and the other as "the one who acted in self defence". Mind you too, the majority of homicides take place between intimates, not strangers. In such a scenario, at least one is ending up dead or wounded, but if neither had carried a gun the chance is much much lower.
    Statistically, for every instance in which a gun in the home was shot in "self defence", there are seven criminal assaults or homicides, four accidental shootings, and 10 attempted or successful suicides. Besides that living with a gun at home by itself increases the chance of being murdered 2.5 times than someone with no gun at home.

  7. #7

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    There is such a difference between Europe, the U. K. and the U. S. The U. S. is a very large country, with only a few police for each county or town. There is no way one could count on the police to protect them should someone unauthorized enter their house. The U. S. has very high crime rates. There are several murders a year in my town, as well as home invasions, burglaries, rapes and the sad list goes on. I've had to call the police on several occasions when suspicious people entered my property. I was darned glad I was armed so I could protect my family. I should add that I live in a good neighborhood, living in a four bedroom, three bathroom, two fireplace, brick house. But good neighborhoods get broken into all the time.

    As for gun laws, I agree with the ones we have. Not everyone should own a gun. Two years ago we had an 86 year old grandfather stomped to death when he came to Lynchburg for his grandson's wedding. One of the murderers was an 8th grade student from the school where I teach. This is Lynchburg, home of Liberty U. and the Falwells. No one is ever really safe.

    What does bother me however is that in Virginia, anyone can buy a gun at a gun show, or purchase a gun privately, with no background check. That's a loophole that should be closed, but our Republican legislature will never allow it, because the gun lobby gets them re-elected. The massacre at Virginia Tech was perpetrated by a know insane student, yet he was able to buy a gun. Everyone in Virginia is afraid to toughen the gun laws regarding sales, and the way we identify the mentally ill. This is why I own a gun, because there is good reason to not trust people. Not in the U. S., anyway.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan09 View Post
    Plus, I love to hunt, and having been around firearms my entire life, handling them with due respect and care in a safe manner is instinctual. 90% of everything you need to know when handling firearms is based on common sense really.

    1. Treat all firearms as if they are loaded, at all times.
    2. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have checked your surrounding and determined it is safe to shoot (trigger discipline)
    3. A clean gun is a safe gun
    4. The primary purpose of any firearm is to take life, they are not toys, and shouldn't be treated as such.
    5. Keep guns away from all children and non-gun owners.

    As long as these basic guidelines are followed, you will be fine 99% of the time, with or without formal training.
    I entirely agree with you, but I think you're missing the problem. Because just about anyone can buy a gun, a lot of guns end up going to people who aren't responsible or lack common sense. Like the guy in Phoenix who killed his girlfriend because he took his loaded, safety-off firearm out of his pants pocket when they were hugging. Link that will make you wonder how our species has survived this long here.

    As far as I see, there are two possible solutions to this. One, ignore it. Two, regulate the fuck out of gun sales to make sure that people who buy guns have undergone significant training and stupidity screening.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by Dan09 View Post
    Now, whether or not a successful revolt in the event of an oppressive government that has gotten out of control could actually be waged is up for debate. However, it's irrelevant really, as the continued existence of the second amendment, and the gun rights it supposedly protects, is an important safeguard regardless.
    But this ignores the fact that every amendment to the constitution is accepted as having having reasonable limitation. The first amendment doesn't permit me to yell bomb in a movie theater. Why should the second amendment permit me to own a rifle that can fire a shell through the armor plating on a tank? Buffering the extent of each amendment's protection against reasonable societal expectations is commonly applied to other amendments. Why should the second sacrosanct when others are not?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by tiny View Post
    As a non-aristocratic Englishman
    I usually read your posts in a stuffy British accent. This made me switch to cockney.

  9. #9

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    My answer isn't really applicable to the points you've laid out:

    I don't trust any private citizen with a firearm other than myself. Therefore I am the only private citizen that should be allowed to own a firearm.

    However, I realize the inherent hypocrisy of this position, so I lean towards no private citizens owning firearms. I don't consider air-rifles/paintball guns under this classification & I have no problem with people firing guns at licensed ranges where the guns remain on site at all times.

  10. #10

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    This:



    Quote Originally Posted by Dan09 View Post
    The foundation of my understanding of gun law and the second amendment revolves around what the founding fathers most likely were concerned about at the time.

    Having just waged a war against an oppressive government, the second amendment was meant to provide a safeguard against the POSSIBILITY of an out of control government.
    Anyone in the U.S proposing limitations is coming at it from the wrong direction, ie, they're assuming that the government has a right to regulate private firearm ownership. Under the second amendment, it doesn't.

    If you think its a good thing to remove firearms from private hands, then at least go about it honestly and work toward repeal of the 2nd amendment. Yes, its intentionally difficult to amend the constitution so freedom isn't given away on the whim of today's fad or an overreaction to an overhyped event.

    Tyrants, prospective tyrants, and well-meaning but naive nimrods often find it easier to nibble away at freedoms bit by bit, like the frog in the saucepan.



    Quote Originally Posted by AEsahaettr View Post
    I entirely agree with you, but I think you're missing the problem. Because just about anyone can buy a gun, a lot of guns end up going to people who aren't responsible or lack common sense. Like the guy in Phoenix who killed his girlfriend because he took his loaded, safety-off firearm out of his pants pocket when they were hugging.
    And this is a problem how? Darwin rocks. <tongue only partly extended into cheek>

    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by AEsahaettr View Post
    The first amendment doesn't permit me to yell bomb in a movie theater.
    Actually it does, although it does not absolve you from civil or criminal responsibility for your action. Should we have everyone's tongues surgically removed to prevent tragedy?

    Owning a gun is legal. Killing someone with it is not, with a few obvious exceptions.

    Cars are legal. Running someone over is not.

    Karate classes are legal. Breaking someone's larynx in a bar fight is not.

    Having sex is legal. Forcing it on someone is not.
    Last edited by Maxx; 12-Jan-2014 at 14:19.

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